❓ Inquiring Minds Want To Know - Discussion Thread

It amazes me to be honest sometimes how there can be such a big disconnect in some vanilla relationships, especially with straight partners I find. Of course many are very healthy but it seems the friendship aspect of the relationship is all too often neglected. Part of the problem is in culture men and women tend to be segregated socially, and look to the other solely as a romantic conquest, as an "other", rather than identifying the same way friends of the same gender would, sharing fears and insecurities etc. Again there are doubtless some D/s relationship which share these problems too, but in being open about your sexual needs, you're probably likely to me more open with each other in general

I'm sure some do, I think that some D/s relationships might be worse at it than vanilla ones lol. But a lot of relationships seem to no focus on the entire person and only part of the individual.
 
I don't think there is any major difference. A relationship is a relationship, whether the sex in it involves any kink or not. (I think I have mentioned before that I dislike the term "vanilla" as applied to relationships, since it implies a level of superiority, but that is probably a whole other thread.)

Every relationship I have ever been in has, at the end of the day, been a relationship - a big, beautiful, challenging, and satisfying tangle of a thousand different strands, all woven together into a tapestry that tells a story. Every relationship has two (or more) human beings in it and we are, as old Walt Whitman says, a multitude.

On the ring/collar diversion - they can both symbolize the same or similar things, just depending on the people involved. There is a lot of etiquette and custom wrapped up in both, culturally. I've never seen a wedding that involved a collar - though I have seen both collaring ceremonies and bondage themed wedding rings. Again, the symbolism is all in the individuals doing the exchange.

And like any other object - sometimes a ring is just a ring. Sometimes a collar is just a collar. I have known people who wore collars for sexual purposes, minus any symbolism and I've used them in bondage encounters where it is didn't symbolize anything, but was just one part of the gear being used for the psychological and physical effects.
 
I don't think there is any major difference. A relationship is a relationship, whether the sex in it involves any kink or not. (I think I have mentioned before that I dislike the term "vanilla" as applied to relationships, since it implies a level of superiority, but that is probably a whole other thread.)

snip

And like any other object - sometimes a ring is just a ring. Sometimes a collar is just a collar. I have known people who wore collars for sexual purposes, minus any symbolism and I've used them in bondage encounters where it is didn't symbolize anything, but was just one part of the gear being used for the psychological and physical effects.

As Groucho said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. And as my favorite Mouse used to say over and over again here, a relationship is a relationship is a relationship.

Honestly, - and with much love for our host - asking if one sort of relationship is different/better than another is pretty close to meaningless. It's like asking if a hot dog is better than clam chowder. In what circumstances, with whom, where, when, etc.? Hot dogs are really portable and clam chowder can warm you up on a cold day. But you can't eat clam chowder with your fingers at the ballpark and in my experience hot dogs just don't set up a good lobster feed in any way that is right or holy.
 
Are both people wearing collars?
I believe if one wears a wedding ring, the other should to. The difference is a public show of equal commitment. You don’t need marriage for that - but collaring as a public sign of ownership vs public wearing of rings in an equal way is, I think, very different.

My partner and I have matching rings that we bought more than a decade ago. I wear mine about 23/7, but hers doesn't fit any more so it's been years since she wore it. I don't consider that a big deal; matching rings is a nice symbol but sometimes symbols have to give way to practicalities.
 
My partner and I have matching rings that we bought more than a decade ago. I wear mine about 23/7, but hers doesn't fit any more so it's been years since she wore it. I don't consider that a big deal; matching rings is a nice symbol but sometimes symbols have to give way to practicalities.

Ours don't match. And yes, people's sizes change etc. I think it's more a situation based on someone doing something in public that is an outward display of a relationship where only one is expected to do something. Sure, it's voluntary (usually), but this was my reasoning for why I couldn't do it. That's all. If it's your thang, go for it.
 
I think D/s relationships on average are more intimate than a vanilla relationship. The way a D/s relationship works normally requires more open communication and the exposure of fear, desires, and insecurities. D/s need that openness to establish boundaries and a secondary effect is that it creates a stronger bond.

Most vanilla relationships have to work toward that level of openness where a D/s can skip to the juicy bits.

It's also really hard not to feel close to someone when they saw you beg for a spanking the night before :D


Well THIS is total bullshit
EVERY relationship has issues. If they don't currently, they already have or will eventually. ALL relationships take work. I fucking hate when people think their lifestyle means they get to avoid the reality that relationships are work. D/s. Poly. Whatever it is. Every single relationship takes work. If you have kids, D/s is JUST as difficult as any other relationship. In a D/s relationship, there are plenty of fears and insecurities. It's complete bullshit to think there aren't. I'm not secure by any means, and have had those relationships. I'm just very good at playing a role when I want to.

Also, skipping 'to the juicy bits' skips a lot of what is necessary for a healthy, long term committed relationship (however you define it).

I've been reading a bunch of pro-poly stuff lately (note: I am NOT poly, nor do I want to be), and the common theme is how they are so much more emotionally open than every other relationship because they HAVE to talk about everything. Which isn't necessarily a good thing. I'm of the belief that a complete lack of jealousy means there's something missing in that 'love'. You don't have to act on the jealousy, but not even a pang of it when someone else is fucking your partner? No. I think a LOT of people lie to themselves that they're OK with it. If you read that stuff, you'd think NOT having 24/7 compersion means you're doing poly wrong.

I say this to say....it's bullshit that D/s are stronger relationships. SOME may be, but that's person dependent NOT lifestyle dependent.

It amazes me to be honest sometimes how there can be such a big disconnect in some vanilla relationships, especially with straight partners I find. Of course many are very healthy but it seems the friendship aspect of the relationship is all too often neglected. Part of the problem is in culture men and women tend to be segregated socially, and look to the other solely as a romantic conquest, as an "other", rather than identifying the same way friends of the same gender would, sharing fears and insecurities etc. Again there are doubtless some D/s relationship which share these problems too, but in being open about your sexual needs, you're probably likely to me more open with each other in general

Why is there an assumption that 'vanilla' relationships aren't open? Maybe some people are happy without the choking? Or only want to be choked by specific people and not necessarily their spouse/long term partner? SOME aspects of sexuality are dependent on who your partner is at that time. To go further into this comment, men generally don't have social groups that are open and sharing. Not being open is a human issue, not a 'vanilla' or 'D/s' thing.
 
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^^^

What AveryElle said is more clear, more expressive, and more thorough on this question than my post. I've been posting here for 12 years and I've lost count of the number of times that folks have tried to make the argument that kinky relationships are inherently better than nin-kinky relationships. It may soothe egoes to hold that view, but know that it is fundamentally false.
 
#28 (suggested)

Do you feel like D/s relationships are more intimate that vanilla relationships (on line or off)? Do you feel like they are more intense? Why or why not?

D/s relationships often begin with a lot of talk, negotiations, formality - in your experience have the endings of those relationships been the same? Have your D/s breakups been harder to move past than your more vanilla relationships?


I need some questions! I think we've covered a lot of D/s but all flavors of kink are welcome and let's throw some just plain human sexuality in there too!
:heart: plp

Do I feel like the D/s relationships are more intimate? Me, personally. They can be, especially sexually. They require more communication about a number of topics straight from the get go. In my experience, dating, you do cover important but less intense topics up front. That's totally natural and normal. I may know way more about the family structure of the man I'm having pasta with one first date -but- on the other hand I may know way more about the psychology of the man who wants to spank me until my ass is bruised. No one thing is better but they are different and those differences MAY make them better for certain people.

Are they more intense? In my experience. Yes. But that may be for a number of personal reasons. And since this is a thread where people can share personal feelings and experiences, which means we will get a large diversity of opinions. For me they have been WAY more emotionally intense - that has to do with my choice of SO and my choice of Tops (for lack of a better word). To say that marriage isn't intense is crazy, but it is intense in a different way - a long term intense. Where as a D/s, there are safe words and crying and pain and pleasure and all of that can be scheduled and stopped as needed. Each has their own place. I would be curious to hear from people that are living 24/7 D/s on this.

Are they more work? Which wasn't in the questions but got brought up. I haven't had a single relationship of any kind that wasn't work. People are difficult, stubborn, moody, wonderful, multi-faceted creatures and that means to be around them BOTH people (friendship, marriage, coworker, whatever) have to put in some work - lots of communication and compromise. But the work is always worth it. To communicate with someone else and often someone very different from you is to hold up a mirror to yourself and have to inspect, acknowledge, and affirm things in yourself.

I think D/s seems easier for some people because it is those people's more natural state. I think this clicked with me when I realized and put language to my subbiness. It has come pretty naturally to me with certain people. I think "vanilla" or non D/s, may be easier for others because that is their natural state. I can't imagine a world, especially a Lit world, where we try to force everyone else into certain boxes. Be who you want to be, like what you want to like, and let other people do the same.

Now THE END of D/s relationships - they fucking suck. It's hard to have all the intensity, intimacy, and openness with someone and often trust them in ways you find very, very difficult only to have it end. But again, the end of every relationship is hard. Best case scenario there is a discussion, a debriefing if you will.... that's also hard but for me personally. I need that. I have less experience here but am interested to hear other's experiences. How long did you wait between? Did you feel a empty space? Did how it ended affect how you feel about the relationship in whole?
 
Well THIS is total bullshit
EVERY relationship has issues. If they don't currently, they already have or will eventually. ALL relationships take work. I fucking hate when people think their lifestyle means they get to avoid the reality that relationships are work. D/s. Poly. Whatever it is. Every single relationship takes work. If you have kids, D/s is JUST as difficult as any other relationship. In a D/s relationship, there are plenty of fears and insecurities. It's complete bullshit to think there aren't. I'm not secure by any means, and have had those relationships. I'm just very good at playing a role when I want to.

Also, skipping 'to the juicy bits' skips a lot of what is necessary for a healthy, long term committed relationship (however you define it).

I've been reading a bunch of pro-poly stuff lately (note: I am NOT poly, nor do I want to be), and the common theme is how they are so much more emotionally open than every other relationship because they HAVE to talk about everything. Which isn't necessarily a good thing. I'm of the belief that a complete lack of jealousy means there's something missing in that 'love'. You don't have to act on the jealousy, but not even a pang of it when someone else is fucking your partner? No. I think a LOT of people lie to themselves that they're OK with it. If you read that stuff, you'd think NOT having 24/7 compersion means you're doing poly wrong.

I say this to say....it's bullshit that D/s are stronger relationships. SOME may be, but that's person dependent NOT lifestyle dependent.



Why is there an assumption that 'vanilla' relationships aren't open? Maybe some people are happy without the choking? Or only want to be choked by specific people and not necessarily their spouse/long term partner? SOME aspects of sexuality are dependent on who your partner is at that time. To go further into this comment, men generally don't have social groups that are open and sharing. Not being open is a human issue, not a 'vanilla' or 'D/s' thing.



I never meant to imply that they didn't, or that they were a way out of things that creep up in every relationship. Things like money, kids, work, and insecurities all still affect a D/s relationship as much as a vanilla one. I'll admit I could have worded my response to better convey that. But you did a great job of that for me lol.

I think we all know relationships are hard, lits population would be considerably less if they weren't lol. But I will stand by my point that a D/s relationship CAN but not will make some of what you deal with in a relationship easier. Communication is key, for a relationship to work you have to voice what bothers you and be open to discussing what you do that bothers others. I think the conversations you have as a Dom or Sub can make that type of communication easier for other parts of your life. But as Elle said, it's not a cure all and it depends on the people in the relationship.

I can take criticism on how hard a hit or not is easier than I can if I put a shelf up crooked :)

As for a Poly relationship, I think it's prehaps the most difficult kind of relationship to be a part of. I've never been in one so this is simply my opinion. I agree with you that the lack of jealousy could show a lack of connection, but I also think that if your realtionship is made of individuals who can overcome that it can truly be a beautiful thing. A poly relationship can solve some of the emotional, sexual, and finicial problems normal relationships have, but it can also make them many times worse . I think poly will become more and more common as time goes on, I think the nature of our interconnected societies is changing how relationships work.
 
I think D/s seems easier for some people because it is those people's more natural state. I think this clicked with me when I realized and put language to my subbiness. It has come pretty naturally to me with certain people. I think "vanilla" or non D/s, may be easier for others because that is their natural state. I can't imagine a world, especially a Lit world, where we try to force everyone else into certain boxes. Be who you want to be, like what you want to like, and let other people do the same.

Now THE END of D/s relationships - they fucking suck. It's hard to have all the intensity, intimacy, and openness with someone and often trust them in ways you find very, very difficult only to have it end. But again, the end of every relationship is hard. Best case scenario there is a discussion, a debriefing if you will.... that's also hard but for me personally. I need that. I have less experience here but am interested to hear other's experiences. How long did you wait between? Did you feel a empty space? Did how it ended affect how you feel about the relationship in whole?

Agreed.
 
What Avery said.
Every relationship is different.
There are no shortcuts.
 
I didn’t mean to offend anyone but normative/atypical relationships - D/s, poly, Big/little wtf you want to be a part of, all take work and intimacy can be faked in any relationship. Some people want something to work so desperately that they compromise who they are or what they believe. That’s not intimacy.

If the goal is real emotional intimacy, that’s hard ass work in any relationship. I am emotionally intimate with someone that I’m not married to, because we’ve known each other for a long time and when you’ve been married a while, certain things aren’t worth hashing out over and over again. Everyone is different and ‘sex positivity’ should be about being true to yourself, finding relationships that bring you joy, and working on keeping them. To each their own (consentual) kink within that. 🌈
 
#28 (suggested)

Do you feel like D/s relationships are more intimate that vanilla relationships (on line or off)? Do you feel like they are more intense? Why or why not?

D/s relationships often begin with a lot of talk, negotiations, formality - in your experience have the endings of those relationships been the same? Have your D/s breakups been harder to move past than your more vanilla relationships?

No relationship lives in a vacuum. D/s, vanilla, friendships, marriages, partnerships - any relationship filled with history, family, challenges, memories, emotion -- those things determine intensity and connection. Ending a relationship that has all that leaves a hole where that person used to be.

But. Yes. I've only had a couple of serious, longer-term D/s relationships and I do feel they were more difficult when they ended. Acknowledging my submission to someone, offering and having my service accepted connects me in a deeper way than I've felt in my longer term vanilla relationships.

Severing that connection made me feel the loss of those relationships in a different, deeper way. It took longer to get myself back, to get my feet back under me. To feel anchored again.

We talk a lot about the desire to have someone get in to our head, spend some time there, pull our thoughts apart, put us back together in some kinky, connected way. I've never discussed that level of vulnerability in a vanilla relationship.

When I've exposed myself to someone, my secrets, my shameful cravings, my body, my heart in a submissive way, it does feel more intimate. We talk a lot about ownership, possession, surrender within a relationship. Those things: submitting, surrendering, kneeling, crawling, offering up my holes - they are the D/s things that connect me to my partner. These inherently feel more intimate and intense than the things I've experienced in vanilla relationships.
 
#28 (suggested)

Do you feel like D/s relationships are more intimate that vanilla relationships (on line or off)? Do you feel like they are more intense? Why or why not?

D/s relationships often begin with a lot of talk, negotiations, formality - in your experience have the endings of those relationships been the same? Have your D/s breakups been harder to move past than your more vanilla relationships?

...A relationship is a relationship, whether the sex in it involves any kink or not...

I keep forgetting there are folks who practice D/s only in the bedroom. But it's fucking brilliant, so i want it everywhere.

For me, D/s relationships are both more intense and more intimate. I mean, how does a power exchange relationship not inherently include greater depths of trust and risk and reward?

I would expect a vanilla partner to remember my fears, weaknesses, and triggers in or out of the bedroom. I expect a D/s partner to not only remember them, but to push me into those uncomfortable places, and to hold me there a while, while i squirm and whimper and begin to panic. That's fucking intense!! I am sure as hell not going to do that with just anyone!

Endings have always been shitty in my experience. Debriefings limited to a sentence or two, if they don't go full ghost before then. I'm sure being online accounts for a lot of that, but I've been ghosted by in-person lovers, too. ( WTF?? :rolleyes:) There is a serious lack of accountability, and no recourse for the partners left behind. Of course all of that applies to both vanilla and kinky relationships, but D/s breakups hurt more because I've invested more.

Recovery time is increased exponentially. The void they leave is bigger because they met more of my needs. It sucks harder, and longer, and not in a good way.
 
#28 (suggested)
Have your D/s breakups been harder to move past than your more vanilla relationships?

I never addressed this, as I've never had a solid relationship end on truly bad terms. Most of mine simply evolved into no longer being as interesting as they were early on. I had a D/s arrangement (to the extent I'll label it) and as 'intimate' as it was - again, as intimate as I'd let anyone really get - the spark faded and we took longer to respond to calls or texts. I didn't want to sleep over. It all just evaporated. This is before the era of ghosting, however.

The relationships that have been most difficult to get over have been the ones where the other person point blank lied or manipulated to me. D partners have done that, and vanilla partners have done that. One of my current partners did that to me a while ago (12ish years at this point?). He still likes to top me, but what hurt at the end of us being together the first time was the hiding of things or lying, not the missing his topping me. I think some of us are more easily emotionally involved than others. It takes a FUCK TON for me to become emotionally involved with anyone. Kink or no kink. I think, maybe, some people are more trusting and maybe the D/s aspect is a way for them to feel more trusting. I point blank do not trust people on a good day - it's oh so very Russian of me. Scorned a few times by people that I should have been able to trust would make it difficult in the best of relationships, including D/s, to be completely open and emotionally available.

I am slightly envious of those that do trust, and do fall hard. I wonder if that is related to sub drop or needing aftercare.
 
I never addressed this, as I've never had a solid relationship end on truly bad terms. Most of mine simply evolved into no longer being as interesting as they were early on. I had a D/s arrangement (to the extent I'll label it) and as 'intimate' as it was - again, as intimate as I'd let anyone really get - the spark faded and we took longer to respond to calls or texts. I didn't want to sleep over. It all just evaporated. This is before the era of ghosting, however.

The relationships that have been most difficult to get over have been the ones where the other person point blank lied or manipulated to me. D partners have done that, and vanilla partners have done that. One of my current partners did that to me a while ago (12ish years at this point?). He still likes to top me, but what hurt at the end of us being together the first time was the hiding of things or lying, not the missing his topping me. I think some of us are more easily emotionally involved than others. It takes a FUCK TON for me to become emotionally involved with anyone. Kink or no kink. I think, maybe, some people are more trusting and maybe the D/s aspect is a way for them to feel more trusting. I point blank do not trust people on a good day - it's oh so very Russian of me. Scorned a few times by people that I should have been able to trust would make it difficult in the best of relationships, including D/s, to be completely open and emotionally available.

I am slightly envious of those that do trust, and do fall hard. I wonder if that is related to sub drop or needing aftercare.

I’ve experienced sub drop with someone I really didn’t care about at all.
I think it’s more the actual people involved, not the kink involved.
 
it's interesting to read all the various feedback on this particular question. So much of it is dependent on the person(s) and their experiences, what they bring into the relationship, what they expect in the relationship, what they take out of the relationship.

Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever had a D/s relationship without the sexual component, where the D/s was present in all other parts of life, but the sex was not involved (for whatever the reason may be). I wonder how that would play out?

I ask because I do think that one of the things that leads to the perception that kink based relationships are more intense is the sexual focus. Sex, any way you slice it, is intense and emotional. Is there such a thing as D/s without the sex?
 
Is there such a thing as D/s without the sex?

Yes.

Think conservative religious folks. The sex may or may not involve D/s, but the relationship outside the bedroom definitely will. When those involved are on the same page and it truly is mutually consensual, it's a very groovy thing. When the man is an asshole control freak - or, alternatively, a shitty leader - not so much.

In a religious context, a 'good' wife does not have the option to not submit to her husband. Part of her job description is to discover his preferences and do things his way without him ever having to ask. If there are difficulties, she can make an appeal, but she has no authority over him and possibly no recourse. In some churches he can be brought before the elders, bla bla bla, you don't want to hear all that. But essentially, she must either find a way to make things work, find a way to survive a crappy relationship, or do the unthinkable and leave his sorry ass.

In the case of a husband who leans naturally more submissive by nature, he is still officially the head of the food chain. But if the relationship is solid and the couple is creative, there are loopholes that provide enough wiggle room for them to come up with an arrangement that better accommodates their preferences. The husband can either delegate to the wife authority over an area, or he can choose to go with her input on an issue.

Okay, i need to turtle for a bit. :(

There are others here who can chime in on this, I'm sure they'll be along shortly.
 
Yes.

Think conservative religious folks. The sex may or may not involve D/s, but the relationship outside the bedroom definitely will. When those involved are on the same page and it truly is mutually consensual, it's a very groovy thing. When the man is an asshole control freak - or, alternatively, a shitty leader - not so much.

In a religious context, a 'good' wife does not have the option to not submit to her husband. Part of her job description is to discover his preferences and do things his way without him ever having to ask. If there are difficulties, she can make an appeal, but she has no authority over him and possibly no recourse. In some churches he can be brought before the elders, bla bla bla, you don't want to hear all that. But essentially, she must either find a way to make things work, find a way to survive a crappy relationship, or do the unthinkable and leave his sorry ass.

In the case of a husband who leans naturally more submissive by nature, he is still officially the head of the food chain. But if the relationship is solid and the couple is creative, there are loopholes that provide enough wiggle room for them to come up with an arrangement that better accommodates their preferences. The husband can either delegate to the wife authority over an area, or he can choose to go with her input on an issue.

Okay, i need to turtle for a bit. :(

There are others here who can chime in on this, I'm sure they'll be along shortly.

Yes, you know me well, Honey.

Tried that first part, ended up getting shunned for doing the second part. But that's okay. If they truly couldn't see what he was like behind closed doors, they can keep their friendship.

There's a big difference between being Dominant and being domineering, though. I also don't think being dominant has to include dominating sexually. Just as my submission as his wife didn't include my submission sexually (cause he didn't deserve it).

Just my 2 cents worth.
 
I disagree.
That sounds like abuse. Not submission.

No. I submitted willingly because its who I am, regardless of my faith. He never demanded it. I love the life style we had, truly. I love being a homemaker, the caretaker, pleasing, blah blah blah... until that point where I said f* it.

The abuse was the gaslighting, the adultery, the ...everything else. But it was never to make me submit, I've always been submissive in relationships.
 
No. I submitted willingly because its who I am, regardless of my faith. He never demanded it. I love the life style we had, truly. I love being a homemaker, the caretaker, pleasing, blah blah blah... until that point where I said f* it.

The abuse was the gaslighting, the adultery, the ...everything else. But it was never to make me submit, I've always been submissive in relationships.

Okay. This is palatable.
And nice.


I guess we submit for different reasons, and who am I to judge? But submitting in the name of religion?

Or just because he’s a man and I’m not?

No.
For me? No.
 
I think that is one of the things that often comes out when you engage in deeper discussions about kink - setting aside the kink it - the who, the what, the why, are endlessly fascinating. People often arrive at the same kink by radically different paths, with completely different understandings, and yet at the end of the day, they're engaged in the same act (generally speaking).

It's the same way with relationships. In the course of my years as an adult, if I look back at the two most psychologically and physically intense relationships I've had - neither of them had many elements of kink. The intensity came for the people involved, not the actions done.

The most physically intense BDSM relationship I had was very "light" on the psychological side. We were both mature, we both knew what we liked when it came to fucking, and we went deep into that space. But, when we were not in that space, we were great and close friends, whose relationship was filled with love, humor, and a certain lightness.
 
I disagree.
That sounds like abuse. Not submission.

Yes, he was an asshole. But i chose my attitude.
Does his behavior make my submission any less valid?

When i came to Lit and discovered BDSM, i didn't discover D/s. I discovered a new system of applying the principles with which i was already familiar.

The question was asked, is there such a thing as D/s without sex? My answer is yes.

Perhaps i shouldn't have used my own experience as an example. I know plenty of women who did a better job of picking a partner than i did, who feel loved and supported and respected in their marriages. No system is perfect, there are assholes everywhere. It's up to the people involved to make each relationship misery or bliss.
 
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I am slightly envious of those that do trust, and do fall hard. I wonder if that is related to sub drop or needing aftercare.

I am one who trusts easily and falls hard - by compulsion, not by choice. Some days i am sure it must be a design flaw, because it absolutely has its downside.

I am especially vulnerable with those who speak to my love languages, knowingly or not. If they're good with the pretty words, if they spend a lot of time with me, if they touch me how i like to be touched, down i go. It's simple cause and effect, really. I've had to learn to pull back from the very things that make me feel good in order to keep myself from feeling used, lied to, and abandoned. I have to guard my tender heart and responsive nature if i don't want to keep acquiring baggage.

It's something i struggle with now, but i don't think i will forever. It's certainly a steep learning curve, but i can't afford to keep living the other way.
 
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