2 NYPD officers shot, wounded responding to Bronx armed robbery

[Que]

No they don't. I don't have percentages but cops kill more people than people kill cops by a wide margin. And since all cops are armed and on average your civilians are not it's not remotely the same.

This was just a dangrous situation and two cops got shot. Despite the racist right wing no amount of dead cops justifies shooting unarmed blacks anymore than any number of dead soldiers justifies killing unarmed Arabs.

There were over 100 cops that died in the line of duty last year. That is about average.

No one, not even full-tilt loonies like Zumi claim there are 100 possibly bad shootings by cops a year.

There are no incidences of questionable conduct by an officer in a shooting that does not make national news. Cops that die are not necessarily national news.

I do not dispute that our perception is common, but it is not reality.

 

[Kitty]

1501 over ten years when your job is confronting peoples suspected of breaking the law isn't even all that often in my opinion, but I'll admit that it's my opinion.

I agree that miles is a peice of shit, it's not open season, never has been, never will be.

"Many times before" and almost thousands over 10 years?

Sean only 2 have died and it sparked a whole nation into turmoil.

So 1501 in 10 years is an average 15 a year. If we make this much noise over 2...that's a lot of hysteria left for the other average 13.

 

[Que]

"Many times before" and almost thousands over 10 years?

Sean only 2 have died and it sparked a whole nation into turmoil.

So 1501 in 10 years is an average 15 a year. If we make this much noise over 2...that's a lot of hysteria left for the other average 13.

That is 150 a year, not 15.

 

[Kitty]

That is 150 a year, not 15.

Well that makes my point even more valid lmao. Slight mathematical error, but it still is a valid point. We are making all of this noise for 2 cops, when 150 a year die. So imagine. That is a lot of dead cops and overwhelming propaganda to support each of them.

 

[Sean Renaud]

There were over 100 cops that died in the line of duty last year. That is about average.

No one, not even full-tilt loonies like Zumi claim there are 100 possibly bad shootings by cops a year.

There are no incidences of questionable conduct by an officer in a shooting that does not make national news. Cops that die are not necessarily national news.

I do not dispute that our perception is common, but it is not reality.

I suspect it's far higher than that. But we know there were 400 justifiable homocides and at this point it's so obvious that cops cover for each other as brothers that claiming none of those were "You saw he was about to shoot us right?" DAMN RIGHT Cases makes you naive beyond belief. Currently even in the public mind the rule for if a shooting was justified or not seems to hinge on if he was armed. If my gun is in my holster when you shoot me it's justified regardless of if I was threatening you.

First there is a difference between national news and getting coverage. Getting one story on one day that most people probably won't see. . .sure it got coverage. So does the French Election and Ms America. We only get the most sensational cases, usually the ones that are so egregious that siding with the cops at all shows you to be completely off your rocker because there is no way it could have played out that way. IF there is anyway the cop could be justified the news ignores it.

 

[Sean Renaud]

"Many times before" and almost thousands over 10 years?

Sean only 2 have died and it sparked a whole nation into turmoil.

So 1501 in 10 years is an average 15 a year. If we make this much noise over 2...that's a lot of hysteria left for the other average 13.

Two were executed sitting around minding their own business. Of course it sparked a national turmoil as well it should have. That's special.

 

[Kitty]

Two were executed sitting around minding their own business. Of course it sparked a national turmoil as well it should have. That's special.

Technically...the two were in the line of duty. They were on duty...patrolling. He saw uniforms. Did his thing. Just shot his gf for stopping him to commit suicide. And killed two officers. Did his insane duty. And offed himself. Yes, special story. But trust me, the other stories were treated as special as well. Just not special enough, I guess. I even saw commercials (did you see) in the city where they were pleading us citizens to donate money to the two cops' families. Like...really? And then they'd rather mention his criminal record and ignore his mental health record. Okay.

 

[Que]

I suspect it's far higher than that. But we know there were 400 justifiable homocides and at this point it's so obvious that cops cover for each other as brothers that claiming none of those were "You saw he was about to shoot us right?" DAMN RIGHT Cases makes you naive beyond belief. Currently even in the public mind the rule for if a shooting was justified or not seems to hinge on if he was armed. If my gun is in my holster when you shoot me it's justified regardless of if I was threatening you.

First there is a difference between national news and getting coverage. Getting one story on one day that most people probably won't see. . .sure it got coverage. So does the French Election and Ms America. We only get the most sensational cases, usually the ones that are so egregious that siding with the cops at all shows you to be completely off your rocker because there is no way it could have played out that way. IF there is anyway the cop could be justified the news ignores it.

My point is there aren't even 15 "hey.... wait a minute, I am not so sure about this" stories because we hear ALL about ALL of them. The family complains, its a juicy story and even if it is tie goes to the runner, it still makes national news. There are not hundreds of cases where the guy that got shot was not wielding (as in brandishing, threatening, lunging, shooting) a weapon.

I don't know the number but there are a lot of suicide by cop. Zumi likes to lump those in too. It undermines what little credibility the issue has when looked at with any objectivity at all.

Suicide by cop? Not part of this alleged problem. Death by cop whilst in the commission of a felony, ie robbery, assault, murder? Not part of this alleged problem. Death by cop whilst engaged in felony flight? Not part of this alleged problem.

Death by cop because your actions, movements and the hint of what looked in the heat of the moment to be a weapon, but was not? Deeply unfortunate. Such a tragedy is not part of this alleged problem.

Take all of those out, and we are talking about less then a handful a year.

Pretending that all of the above are a pattern of this alleged problem? You lose all credibility.

 

[cabin69]

Another sad day.

 

[Kitty]

My point is there aren't even 15 "hey.... wait a minute, I am not so sure about this" stories because we hear ALL about ALL of them. The family complains, its a juicy story and even if it is tie goes to the runner, it still makes national news. There are not hundreds of cases where the guy that got shot was not wielding (as in brandishing, threatening, lunging, shooting) a weapon.

I don't know the number but there are a lot of suicide by cop. Zumi likes to lump those in too. It undermines what little credibility the issue has when looked at with any objectivity at all.

Suicide by cop? Not part of this alleged problem. Death by cop whilst in the commission of a felony, ie robbery, assault, murder? Not part of this alleged problem. Death by cop whilst engaged in felony flight? Not part of this alleged problem.

Death by cop because your actions, movements and the hint of what looked in the heat of the moment to be a weapon, but was not? Deeply unfortunate. Such a tragedy is not part of this alleged problem.

Take all of those out, and we are talking about less then a handful a year.

Pretending that all of the above are a pattern of this alleged problem? You lose all credibility.

Why would we take all of those out?

 

[Kitty]

Technically...the two were in the line of duty. They were on duty...patrolling. He saw uniforms. Did his thing. Just shot his gf for stopping him to commit suicide. And killed two officers. Did his insane duty. And offed himself. Yes, special story. But trust me, the other stories were treated as special as well. Just not special enough, I guess. I even saw commercials (did you see) in the city where they were pleading us citizens to donate money to the two cops' families. Like...really? And then they'd rather mention his criminal record and ignore his mental health record. Okay.

No response means Sean disagrees with me

 

[Sean Renaud]

My point is there aren't even 15 "hey.... wait a minute, I am not so sure about this" stories because we hear ALL about ALL of them. The family complains, its a juicy story and even if it is tie goes to the runner, it still makes national news. There are not hundreds of cases where the guy that got shot was not wielding (as in brandishing, threatening, lunging, shooting) a weapon.

I don't know the number but there are a lot of suicide by cop. Zumi likes to lump those in too. It undermines what little credibility the issue has when looked at with any objectivity at all.

Suicide by cop? Not part of this alleged problem. Death by cop whilst in the commission of a felony, ie robbery, assault, murder? Not part of this alleged problem. Death by cop whilst engaged in felony flight? Not part of this alleged problem.

Death by cop because your actions, movements and the hint of what looked in the heat of the moment to be a weapon, but was not? Deeply unfortunate. Such a tragedy is not part of this alleged problem.

Take all of those out, and we are talking about less then a handful a year.

Pretending that all of the above are a pattern of this alleged problem? You lose all credibility.

You can believe that if you like.

 

[unregistered]

 

[Kitty]

Kitty "STFU" 92, isn't too fluent in the third R.

Why do you keep boooothering me?

 

[Que]

You can believe that if you like.

There are no statistics, even skewed, agenda-driven ones, to believe anything else.

 

[unregistered]

 

[Sean Renaud]

There are no statistics, even skewed, agenda-driven ones, to believe anything else.

There's common fucking sense though. The statistics are largely unreliable since they start with the cops themselves. If they say it's justified the chances of it being looked into any farther is slim to none. Given the FBI is largely former military and/or law enforcement they likely rubber stamp a lot.

Obama justified bombing an American without a trial. We know our government spies on us and maybe worse. You find it difficult to believe that a brotherhood looks out for it's own? Have you never been a part of one? People in handcuffs have been shot by police in police stations. We have tons of videos of them brutalizing people.

I find it funny though that a person who believes the government always buys the worst product and at the highest price. Instead of what common sense would tell us which is that they either buy it from a friend if possible caring nothing for price or quality and likely getting roughly middle of the road on both, maybe a little high on cost but certainly not so bad that when it passed through whatever treasurer is would just nix it. Or they do the same thing that I bet you do for many products in your house that you don't care about. Grab the first one they see that fits into the budget would believe the things you believe about cops.

 

[Que]

There's common fucking sense though. The statistics are largely unreliable since they start with the cops themselves. If they say it's justified the chances of it being looked into any farther is slim to none. Given the FBI is largely former military and/or law enforcement they likely rubber stamp a lot.

Obama justified bombing an American without a trial. We know our government spies on us and maybe worse. You find it difficult to believe that a brotherhood looks out for it's own? Have you never been a part of one? People in handcuffs have been shot by police in police stations. We have tons of videos of them brutalizing people.

I find it funny though that a person who believes the government always buys the worst product and at the highest price. Instead of what common sense would tell us which is that they either buy it from a friend if possible caring nothing for price or quality and likely getting roughly middle of the road on both, maybe a little high on cost but certainly not so bad that when it passed through whatever treasurer is would just nix it. Or they do the same thing that I bet you do for many products in your house that you don't care about. Grab the first one they see that fits into the budget would believe the things you believe about cops.

You have to start with a pile of bodies, and there isn't one. There are a few bodies, and they all get questioned. No such thing as an uninvestigated shootings. I will grant you (and have so stated several times in the past) that cops likely are quicker to unsnap that holster with a black suspect.

Lets even say 1/2 of every black guy that was ever shot could have been questioned, detained, or arrested (whatever was actually appropriate) without bloodshed. No lets say ALL of them. Still not a huge pile of bodies.

To presume that all of them have no family, friends and community raising holy hell over them is disingenuous. In the current news feeding frenzy you better believe ever damned shooting going back 20 years has been scrutinized by local news stations looking for their 15 minutes of national exposure. They don't even need to show it WAS a bad shooting, just show that there are some unresolved questions and they get a ticket to be interviewed on national news and maybe get called up to the news big leagues.

That doesn't even count the King Oreos of the world filing nuisance suits against the police department if there is even a hint that it was not witnessed by a black congregation in a church on Sunday while holding a gun to the head of the preacher.

Some shootings are so justified that no one is saying that particular shooting is an issue. The only ones worth talking about ARE being talked about and they are a handful. Pretending a handful is an epidemic is counterproductive. If your local police department has had millions of contacts over the last 20 years and not one shooting hits the papers as anything, but "Hero cop saves family in front of witnesses" the are doing it right and should not be impugned by an unrelated, exceedingly rare case thousands of miles away.

 

[Sean Renaud]

You have to start with a pile of bodies, and there isn't one. There are a few bodies, and they all get questioned. No such thing as an uninvestigated shootings. I will grant you (and have so stated several times in the past) that cops likely are quicker to unsnap that holster with a black suspect.

Lets even say 1/2 of every black guy that was ever shot could have been questioned, detained, or arrested (whatever was actually appropriate) without bloodshed. No lets say ALL of them. Still not a huge pile of bodies.

To presume that all of them have no family, friends and community raising holy hell over them is disingenuous. In the current news feeding frenzy you better believe ever damned shooting going back 20 years has been scrutinized by local news stations looking for their 15 minutes of national exposure. They don't even need to show it WAS a bad shooting, just show that there are some unresolved questions and they get a ticket to be interviewed on national news and maybe get called up to the news big leagues.

That doesn't even count the King Oreos of the world filing nuisance suits against the police department if there is even a hint that it was not witnessed by a black congregation in a church on Sunday while holding a gun to the head of the preacher.

Some shootings are so justified that no one is saying that particular shooting is an issue. The only ones worth talking about ARE being talked about and they are a handful. Pretending a handful is an epidemic is counterproductive. If your local police department has had millions of contacts over the last 20 years and not one shooting hits the papers as anything, but "Hero cop saves family in front of witnesses" the are doing it right and should not be impugned by an unrelated, exceedingly rare case thousands of miles away.

There are four hundred bodies a year. So they exist and in larger numbers than cop bodies. An internal investigation doesn't count and given the half ass responses to shootings that make the national press I can't imagine that every shooting gets more than "investigated".

In this case while race is a factor a lot of families especially black ones aren't going to raise hell. There's nothing you can do so why bother? They can't just go to the press. As we learned with cases like Trayvon even when the killer basically testifies I didn't follow instructions and I'm not trained law enforcement you get the fuck off!

At the end of the day unless it's at the mall or something most shootings have no witnesses. Certainly none that (take in mind eye witnesses suck to begin with) can't be convinced they saw something slightly different. But that's why my father taught me long ago that if you pull a gun on someone make sure you kill them. When the cops arrive there should be only one story. When there is only one story and you are the cops the conclusion is forgone.

Really virtually no shooting is so cut and dry that it doesn't require an investigation and that attitude gets us in a lot of trouble. By what we'll call "American Mantra" there have been at least three occasions that I would have been perfectly in my rights to shoot a cop had I been armed. How many cases do you think line up like that?

 

[Kitty]

*pokes Query and Sean*
What's the argument here, exactly? I lost track.

 

[Sean Renaud]

• I suspect that the number of police killings that are unjustified are much higher than reported, certainly over 100 a year.
• The stats are impossible to find, only that there are 400 justified each year
• I think that just like everybody on the team lies when football players rape cheerleaders, everybody on the force lies when cops kill people. They are family and they look out for their own
• That also makes the stats unreliable because it again like going to the Football team and asking how many girls were raped. Look into it and get back to the principle. The number is going to be zero.

 

[Que]

Nearly all cop bodies are homicides. It would be pretty rare for a situation that one could justifiably kill a cop. They represent the state, and if they are wrong (and they often are) you argue it in court.

Your guess of 25% of all cop shooting other people as being suspect is nonsense. The news would have been showing 1000 faces over the last 10 years during the whole Michael Brown protests in Ferguson saying "You SEE?!??" Even if it was just to have the guy's mom cry about what a "good boy" he was.

You didn't see that because there are not anything like 1000 deaths the last 10 years that ANYBODY questions. There are maybe 100 in 10 years. If that. Closer to 50. maybe 20 of those win a wrongful death suit.

Lets say it IS 1000. That is still a STUPID thing to worry about.

Because of the color of your skin, a 1 out of 3,400,000 chance is going to happen to YOU while you are minding your business? Really? This keeps you up at night?

What if I could go over each death with you...we look at all the facts, the autopsy reports see the interview tapes, and we go with your gut on every one of them and we decide it is 10 per year, not 100.

You gonna lose sleep over something that happens to one out of every 34 million people in America?

Even if all 400 a year were bad cops doing bad things, that is about a one in a million occurrence.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Nearly all cop bodies are homicides. It would be pretty rare for a situation that one could justifiably kill a cop. They represent the state, and if they are wrong (and they often are) you argue it in court.

Your guess of 25% of all cop shooting other people as being suspect is nonsense. The news would have been showing 1000 faces over the last 10 years during the whole Michael Brown protests in Ferguson saying "You SEE?!??" Even if it was just to have the guy's mom cry about what a "good boy" he was.

You didn't see that because there are not anything like 1000 deaths the last 10 years that ANYBODY questions. There are maybe 100 in 10 years. If that. Closer to 50. maybe 20 of those win a wrongful death suit.

Lets say it IS 1000. That is still a STUPID thing to worry about.

Because of the color of your skin, a 1 out of 3,400,000 chance is going to happen to YOU while you are minding your business? Really? This keeps you up at night?

What if I could go over each death with you...we look at all the facts, the autopsy reports see the interview tapes, and we go with your gut on every one of them and we decide it is 10 per year, not 100.

You gonna lose sleep over something that happens to one out of every 34 million people in America?

Even if all 400 a year were bad cops doing bad things, that is about a one in a million occurrence.

It's a homocide because they called it a homocide. I live in a country where I am told that the reason I have the right to carry guns is to defend myself. If you pull a gun on me for any reason you are threatening my life, uniform or not, especially in the dark where I might not know you were a cop.

If I am, even if I'm a criminal, and I'm walking down the street and the cop see a gun on waist and pull a gun on me at that point we are in a fight and I have every right in the world to shoot you. That's what your entire mantra of why we need to be able to carry guns is based upon, because the bad guy might have one.

And am I gonna loose sleep over it? Some yeah. Instead of the 1000 number lets use a measly 200. That would mean at years end cops have killed as many Americans in the last 15 years as terrorists. And i'm not asking us to go crazy but I think this shit is a problem and there needs to be someone who is not related to cops who can at least try to look into these things.

The problems with looking over the facts is once again. How? I wasn't there, neither were you. The first people on the scene and likely the people who gathered the evidence and made the call are the people who did the shooting. Can we maybe get those cameras on them? I thikn the fact that cops as a whole are so reluctant to be filmed is because they know they do shit that we can't know about.

And I say that about a lot of things. Society would break down and in a fucking hurry if we knew what our government does. It has to have the ability to maintain a fair bit of secrecy.

 

[Que]

I have heard that some cops are reluctant about cameras. If true, that makes me wonder what the know it would show. My brother has carried a digital voice recorder for years to protect himself. He is a fan of cameras. Possibly because his last gig was internal affairs. Maybe now that he is back on patrol with more gray areas he might think different. He is a pretty black and white, polarized thinking kind of guy. At least he used to be.. These days with age and maturity he is a little more understanding of gray.

The terrorism angle is apt. We DO worry about it and it is statistically irrelevant. That is a really fair comparison.

My point should be that these actions when they occur are not done to cause fear in the community (I get that it does cause fear and why that fear in that specific circumstance and community is reasonable.) When they are overhyped it has a multiplier effect that helps no one.

 

[Sean Renaud]

I have heard that some cops are reluctant about cameras. If true, that makes me wonder what the know it would show. My brother has carried a digital voice recorder for years to protect himself. He is a fan of cameras. Possibly because his last gig was internal affairs. Maybe now that he is back on patrol with more gray areas he might think different. He is a pretty black and white, polarized thinking kind of guy. At least he used to be.. These days with age and maturity he is a little more understanding of gray.

The terrorism angle is apt. We DO worry about it and it is statistically irrelevant. That is a really fair comparison.

My point should be that these actions when they occur are not done to cause fear in the community (I get that it does cause fear and why that fear in that specific circumstance and community is reasonable.) When they are overhyped it has a multiplier effect that helps no one.

Because they do a lot of "questionable" stuff or at least stuff that would make us squirm if we saw it. I'm not accusing them of being bad especially not as a group. The reward of having them out not just protecting property, but keeping traffic flowing far outweighs the damage they did even if we were to use your 1000 a year stat.

I use the terrorism angle because similar numbers and that's only because of 9/11. While Ishmael would never admit it and I'm not diggign through thousands of posts he and I agree that counting 9/11 when you add up the bodies due to terrorism really fucks up the numbers. In reality (just counting Americans but yes embassies count) terrorists aren't even a blip on the radar as far as ways we can die but we spend, not counting military mind you, billions on Homeland Security in various ways. We'd save more human lives and spend less money, if we had cops stand outside every bar with a breathalyzer and a bus. If you pop, you get in the bus. At closing if you're sober you can leave. If not we drive you home, tow your car to the lot and charge you. (I'm neither saying we should or shouldn't do that. I'm simply following up on terrorist have killed a little over 3k (I'm not adding up however many embassy deaths there have been or looking up the exact number of 9/11 because it's irrelevant) Since 2000. Cops have (justifiable since that's the only stat I seem to be able to hunt down) killed well over 4k people and we're told not to even look into it seriously.

I agree with the fear issue and that the multiplyer helps nobody. But unfortunately it's one of those issues that when it's not up in your face you simply can't broach the subject at all. We all know how unsafe the work conditions for example are in China. We likewise know which companies use them heavily. Even amongst the people like me who think we shouldn't trade with anybody who doesn't have similar standards or that we should look into boycotting some of these companies we can't broach the subject (with any success) without a fire that kills double digits.

On the subject as you've been hinting at blacks are told a combination of "stop whining" and "stop playing the race card" when there is a body. Trying to bring up just in general that we do not like the practices of law enforcement without that is impossible

Not to mention ain't got time for that in large enough numbers to have an effect.