A place to discuss the craft of writing: tricks, philosophies, styles

[StillStunned]

Repetition and mirroring are some of the most fun you can have while writing (or at least the most fun that I can have while writing). Having scenes that wrap around to prior ones lets you play with the gravity of a plot beat in such wonderful ways. Dead Space: Kendra does this with the opening and closing pages, and Chasing Cars does it with a scene in a coffee shop. In the first, it yanks the rug out from under the reader, while in the second, it's meant to knock the narrator/protagonist off-balance (and possibly the reader as well).

A lovely, powerful spice that is easy to overuse, but when you see someone nail it, it's so awesome!

I've used sequential scenes with similar beginnings a few times in my stories. The first was The Walled Garden, which was going to be just one scene until I discussed it with @Devinter - I'm pretty sure it was his suggestion to do multiple, repeating scenes. Each one builds up the tension, and the result is much stronger than if it had been just one scene.

I've done the same with Annie's Inhibition Removal Therapy, and a new story I'm working on will probably use the same device.

 

[bally_3]

Here's a question for you all. Is your second draft a complete rewrite or a brutal edit?

So far I've been editing, but I wonder if starting over would be easier in the long run.

I also want to thank you all for your insights into writing. As a new writer, they've been incredibly helpful.

 

[StillStunned]

Here's a question for you all. Is your second draft a complete rewrite or a brutal edit?

So far I've been editing, but I wonder if starting over would be easier in the long run.

I also want to thank you all for your insights into writing. As a new writer, they've been incredibly helpful.

Welcome! And, moreover, you're welcome!

As for your question: I edit a lot as I go along. So by the time the first draft is done, all it needs is a quick once-over for continuity, some foreshadowing, maybe a line or two here and there, and then proofreading with Read Aloud.

 

[Statius]

Here's a question for you all. Is your second draft a complete rewrite or a brutal edit?

So far I've been editing, but I wonder if starting over would be easier in the long run.

I also want to thank you all for your insights into writing. As a new writer, they've been incredibly helpful.

Same as @StillStunned

 

[Publius68]

I’m about fifty-fifty from story to story between @StillStunned’s process and major surgery: swapping around scenes, deleting and adding, and re-writing whole passages. Every once in a while, I’ll give up the first draft as a bad job, usually before it is done, and start over completely. Usually when that happens, I abandon the project, to be honest.

 

[SpermBankHoliday]

Here's a question for you all. Is your second draft a complete rewrite or a brutal edit?

So far I've been editing, but I wonder if starting over would be easier in the long run.

I also want to thank you all for your insights into writing. As a new writer, they've been incredibly helpful.

I'm a somewhat new writer, but this is my process: I write my shitty first draft. It's not quite the whole story, but it lays down what will need to be paid out. Every time I open up my story, I re-read it, looking for mistakes and embellishing what's there until I can get to the newer stuff. Embellishing means adding description, clarifying things that were muddled, and making sure the pace of the story is .
I generally write the ending quickly, because it's the most fun. Once it's all down, I like to re-read the whole thing several times over the course of a few days. Unless it's for a contest, and that baby's got to go out by midnight, ready or not.

I don't mess with flashbacks, and I'm disciplined/lazy enough to save the "flashes of genius" for BEFORE I start writing, because once I get going, it is ON.

 

[iwatchus]

Here's a question for you all. Is your second draft a complete rewrite or a brutal edit?

So far I've been editing, but I wonder if starting over would be easier in the long run.

I also want to thank you all for your insights into writing. As a new writer, they've been incredibly helpful.

I am trying to adjust my process for novels to include a major revision phase. I have a draft sitting while I work on the first draft for another novel (and write a novella for winter event). I will let you know how it worked in a couple of months.

 

[AG31]

In order to convey information to the reader, without "dumping," always have another reason for mentioning it. Here are two examples from "Fifty Fifty" by Steve Cavanagh.

1 - <The speaker is at his retirement party. This is the start of his speech.> "I've been a dishwasher, short-order cook, paperboy, the youngest African American captain in the United States Militrary, a law clerk, a lawyer, and a judge."

That's the only direct mention of his race in the book.

2 - "You've had four weeks of retirement. Don't tell me you're starting to regret it now."

This tells us that four weeks have past between the preceding chapter and this one.

 

[StillStunned]

In order to convey information to the reader, without "dumping," always have another reason for mentioning it.

Excellent examples.

I think that infodumps are usually quite easy to avoid in contemporary real-world settings. The reader will be familiar with how society works, so all you need to fill in are the details of your characters' and localities' backgrounds.

Things get tricky when the setting is historical (or even not the society of the targeted audience), or one that the author has made up for a fantasy or sci-fi story.

In some subgenres you can get away with a short infodump at the start of your story, by using it to set the mood and then directly introduce your characters. Sword & sorcery does this, and I do it in some of my S&S stories.

But mostly I think the best idea is to let the reader figure it out as the story goes along. Small references like the examples @AG31 quotes can go a long way to establishing all the background the reader needs.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I think that infodumps are usually quite easy to avoid in contemporary real-world settings.

Info dump in a 6k stroker is just unskilled or most often just plain lazy writing.

 

[AG31]

Don't use "suddenly" anywhere for any reason.

Inspired by a book I just read (sort of... put it down after 42 pages) which had "suddenly" on two pages in a row.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Don't use "suddenly" anywhere for any reason.

Inspired by a book I just read (sort of... put it down after 42 pages) which had "suddenly" on two pages in a row.

Unless the event really did happen, out of the blue:

Suddenly a car came out of the alley, making me reactively take two steps back, losing my balance, falling back against a wall.

The car stopped, I heard a car door slam shut, then footsteps.

"Oh my god, I'm so sorry. Are you hurt?"

The back of my head had hit the wall, might be bleeding, but when she crouched before me to check how I was, I forgave her. Because all I could see were her legs and a very tight, very short skirt. I forgave her for a few moments longer, then looked up to see who she was.

 

[AG31]

Unless the event really did happen, out of the blue:

Suddenly a car came out of the alley, making me reactively take two steps back, losing my balance, falling back against a wall.

The car stopped, I heard a car door slam shut, then footsteps.

"Oh my god, I'm so sorry. Are you hurt?"

The back of my head had hit the wall, might be bleeding, but when she crouched before me to check how I was, I forgave her. Because all I could see were her legs and a very tight, very short skirt. I forgave her for a few moments longer, then looked up to see who she was.

OK, ok. Maybe once in a story in the hands of a master.

 

[ConsiderateBeast]

@bi_cathy's "A Splendid Pair of Tits" is an example of really outstanding worldbuilding (as the science-fiction people say) through the principle that less is more. The milieu of the story is very familiar to me and I found it carried complete conviction precisely because it didn't overdo it or else insist on hammering the fact it's in London down with clichés.

Another good one is @Voboy's "No Warning", which has the additional challenge of being a werewolf fantasy but succeeds by paying attention to process, practicalities, and the mundane. How exactly do you tell your new girlfriend?

 

[ConsiderateBeast]

PS @StillStunned your Annie/Anna story is the shit.

 

[StillStunned]

PS @StillStunned your Annie/Anna story is the shit.

Thank you, appreciate you saying so!

 

[bi_cathy]

@bi_cathy's "A Splendid Pair of Tits" is an example of really outstanding worldbuilding (as the science-fiction people say) through the principle that less is more. The milieu of the story is very familiar to me and I found it carried complete conviction precisely because it didn't overdo it or else insist on hammering the fact it's in London down with clichés.

Another good one is @Voboy's "No Warning", which has the additional challenge of being a werewolf fantasy but succeeds by paying attention to process, practicalities, and the mundane. How exactly do you tell your new girlfriend?

Thanks for the nice words! It's such a niche thing that some readers don't notice, but I try as much as possible to integrate elements of the "world" as they would come naturally into the narrator's thoughts or into the scene during the story. Long complicated descriptions personally take me out of a story because they often feel shoehorned in or unnecessary. Thanks for noticing this little quirk/effort of mine!

 

[Voboy]

Thanks for the nice words! It's such a niche thing that some readers don't notice, but I try as much as possible to integrate elements of the "world" as they would come naturally into the narrator's thoughts or into the scene during the story. Long complicated descriptions personally take me out of a story because they often feel shoehorned in or unnecessary. Thanks for noticing this little quirk/effort of mine!

Ditto.

I dislike info-dumps as a reader, so I tend not to write them. I'm better off squeezing the toothpaste out slowly, rather than cutting the tube open and making a big mess all at once.

 

[AG31]

Unless you have a knack for snappy conversation, or a good ear for what makes dialogue sound personal, stay away from cliches. Even though people actually use cliches in real life, on the page it takes on the feel of mere filler. Go for a minimalist approach regarding dialogue. Concentrate on the action.

I articulated this to myself when I was trying to figure out why I found the book I was reading so boring. I realized I could skim many pages at a time and not lose a thing regarding the story, and the characters were flat. Too much arbitrary chit-chat.

 

[iwatchus]

Deleting anything that doesn’t move the story forward is a good guideline, dialogue or not. Reason number 2178 I love my reader!

 

[AG31]

Deleting anything that doesn’t move the story forward is a good guideline, dialogue or not. Reason number 2178 I love my reader!

I think there are other reasons for putting stuff in a story. Certainly this is good advice if you're wanting to write a page turner, but I sometimes read for snappy dialogue, vivid characterization, eloquent language (hard to do without being distracting, but possible). If these qualify as "moving the story forward," then I think it's not a helpful idea.

 

[StillStunned]

Unless you have a knack for snappy conversation, or a good ear for what makes dialogue sound personal, stay away from cliches. Even though people actually use cliches in real life, on the page it takes on the feel of mere filler. Go for a minimalist approach regarding dialogue. Concentrate on the action.

I articulated this to myself when I was trying to figure out why I found the book I was reading so boring. I realized I could skim many pages at a time and not lose a thing regarding the story, and the characters were flat. Too much arbitrary chit-chat.

A while ago I listened to an audiobook about fiction writing, which said that dialogue in fiction is actually stylised. No matter how natural you make it sound, you should always distil the essence. You get rid of the uhms and ahs, the sidetracking, the misunderstandings, the distractions - the filler, as you call it.

A bit of witty back and forth can be great, to show character or build tension or foreshadow or introduce a new plot element. But it's very easy to fall into the trap of wanting to experience every moment of your characters' lives, and to live their most trivial conversations in detail. Unfortunately that can come across as very self-indulgent.

 

[AG31]

A while ago I listened to an audiobook about fiction writing, which said that dialogue in fiction is actually stylised. No matter how natural you make it sound, you should always distil the essence. You get rid of the uhms and ahs, the sidetracking, the misunderstandings, the distractions - the filler, as you call it.

Basically, I agree with all this, but my point was a little different. I was referring to garden variety cliches. If you are driven to have your characters use them, then don't let them talk so much.

 

[StillStunned]

Basically, I agree with all this, but my point was a little different. I was referring to garden variety cliches. If you are driven to have your characters use them, then don't let them talk so much.

Oh definitely! But that's part of what I meant: all that extra stuff should be trimmed from the dialogue to make it serve a purpose.

 

[AG31]

Don't add words to characters' utterances that wouldn't happen in real life.

Example of error:
Daughter to father, "Got a minute?"
Father, "Always got a minute for you, "What's on your mind? Though I bet I can guess."

Would ring more true:
Daughter to father, "Got a minute?"
Father, "Sure." or... "Sure, what's on your mind?"