A question about copyright.

[AG31]

I would like to re-write 2 or 3 pages of a book length Amazon story, written by someone else. I want to add a lot of detail. I'd like to publish it here, but I don't know what the copyright rules are that would apply to such an undertaking. Do any of you know?

Edit - Specifically
A prince has been captured by an enemy. He's become a slave. His master has not exhibited any sexual behavior toward him but takes him to the baths and orders him to strip. Then he orders him to unclothe him, the master, and wash him. The slave (our MC) discovers that the master has a very fine physique and becomes slightly aroused as he washes the other man. The master notices and orders the slave to be flogged for impertinence.

I'd like to add lots of detail to these events. Are they recognizable? Does it matter?

 

[onehitwanda]

I'd err strongly to "do not do this without the author's permission"

 

[SimonDoom]

Are you asking what you can do under U.S. Copyright law? Or what you think you can get away with? These are two different things. You'll get a wide range of different opinions here about what Laurel will put up with, what you can get away with, what the Site does and doesn't put up with, etc.

If you are concerned about abiding by U.S. Copyright law, then you cannot reproduce or make derivative works of another person's copyrighted work without infringing their copyright. Period. If you make a parody of it, it might be a fair use. Maybe.

You are free to take the basic plot ideas of somebody else's story and make your own story out of them, because copyright law doesn't protect ideas. It only protects the original, creative expression of the ideas.

If I were you, I would not use the specific character names, character traits, setting names, detailed plot points, or text of the story you are looking at. I'd take only the basic ideas, and recreate the ideas into my own version to make it my own, so I could satisfy myself that the owner of that work would not have a legitimate infringement claim against me.

The two exceptions would be 1) making a clear parody of it, or 2) fanfiction, i.e., creating a story based on the fictional world that has been created by a very famous author, unless that famous author is on record that he/she does not tolerate such fan fiction.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

There is no good way for that to work without the author's permission. You could publish it anyway and hope no one reports the story for plagiarism, but yeah, it's still not okay from an ethical standpoint.

What you can do is:

1. Obtain the author's permission for changes and publishing.

2. If you can't get the author's permission, you could write your own story inspired by the original, but you would have to change the names and at least some of the plot. Giving credit to the original would also be preferable.

3. The last option, and the only one that's ambiguous in the sense of ethics, is to write a sequel to the author's story and dub it fan fiction. There are different views on that here in AH, but in my eyes, it's barely different from regular fan fiction. Your own view is what counts the most here and I think the story would fly under current Lit rules.

 

[AG31]

I'm more worried about what I can get away with than abiding by technicalities of law. It's only 2 or 3 pages, so hardly any action.... The more I think about it, the more I realize that it's the underlying sexual dynamic of the scene that I'm interested in... an "idea."

What if I were to change names, locations, etc., and put at the top, "Inspired by a scene in xxxxxxxxxxx by yyyyyyyyyyyy." Better to leave that off?

 

[SimonDoom]

I'm more worried about what I can get away with than abiding by technicalities of law. It's only 2 or 3 pages, so hardly any action.... The more I think about it, the more I realize that it's the underlying sexual dynamic of the scene that I'm interested in... an "idea."

What if I were to change names, locations, etc., and put at the top, "Inspired by a scene in xxxxxxxxxxx by yyyyyyyyyyyy." Better to leave that off?

If you do away with the names, setting, etc. and don't use the specific text, nobody will ever know, and it's probably not infringement, and there's no point in tipping off people by letting them know the source.

It's not infringement and it's not plagiarism to be inspired by basic ideas from another story and to write your own story based on those ideas. There's no legal or ethical obligation to do anything, nobody will ever know, the Site won't be triggered or suspicious, and you can't possibly get in any trouble.

I'm confused about what your real concern is, based on the way you have described what you want to do.

 

[AG31]

I'd err strongly to "do not do this without the author's permission"

Please see edit to OP.

 

[AG31]

If you do away with the names, setting, etc. and don't use the specific text, nobody will ever know, and it's probably not infringement, and there's no point in tipping off people by letting them know the source.

It's not infringement and it's not plagiarism to be inspired by basic ideas from another story and to write your own story based on those ideas. There's no legal or ethical obligation to do anything, nobody will ever know, the Site won't be triggered or suspicious, and you can't possibly get in any trouble.

I'm confused about what your real concern is, based on the way you have described what you want to do.

Please see edit to OP.

 

[AG31]

There is no good way for that to work without the author's permission. You could publish it anyway and hope no one reports the story for plagiarism, but yeah, it's still not okay from an ethical standpoint.

What you can do is:

1. Obtain the author's permission for changes and publishing.

2. If you can't get the author's permission, you could write your own story inspired by the original, but you would have to change the names and at least some of the plot. Giving credit to the original would also be preferable.

3. The last option, and the only one that's ambiguous in the sense of ethics, is to write a sequel to the author's story and dub it fan fiction. There are different views on that here in AH, but in my eyes, it's barely different from regular fan fiction. Your own view is what counts the most here and I think the story would fly under current Lit rules.

Please see edit to OP.

 

[SimonDoom]

Edit - Specifically
A prince has been captured by an enemy. He's become a slave. His master has not exhibited any sexual behavior toward him but takes him to the baths and orders him to strip. Then he orders him to unclothe him, the master, and wash him. The slave (our MC) discovers that the master has a very fine physique and becomes slightly aroused as he washes the other man. The master notices and orders the slave to be flogged for impertinence.

I'd like to add lots of detail to these events. Are they recognizable? Does it matter?

This isn't copyrightable. If you write your own version of this with your own names, settings, details, and, most importantly, your own original text, you have nothing to worry about. There's no need to attribute it to anybody either. In fact, I recommend against it, because it's an admission that you got it from somewhere and it might trigger an unreasonable copyright owner. Authors and artists make overreaching and unreasonable claims about their ownership rights all the time.

 

[AG31]

This isn't copyrightable. If you write your own version of this with your own names, settings, details, and, most importantly, your own original text, you have nothing to worry about. There's no need to attribute it to anybody either. In fact, I recommend against it, because it's an admission that you got it from somewhere and it might trigger an unreasonable copyright owner. Authors and artists make overreaching and unreasonable claims about their ownership rights all the time.

So I'm hung up on using "Wash me." I'm thinking about the author saying to himself, "Oh, hey!! That's MY scene." But I guess I'm being stupid. Thanks for your help.

 

[SimonDoom]

So I'm hung up on using "Wash me." I'm thinking about the author saying to himself, "Oh, hey!! That's MY scene." But I guess I'm being stupid. Thanks for your help.

Nobody owns a copyright in the phrase "Wash me." But if you are concerned, make a minor change. "Bathe me." "Wash my skin."

The odds of you actually getting into trouble for this are approximately zero, right?

 

[Audiflex]

I would like to re-write 2 or 3 pages of a book length Amazon story, written by someone else. I want to add a lot of detail. I'd like to publish it here, but I don't know what the copyright rules are that would apply to such an undertaking. Do any of you know?

Edit - Specifically
A prince has been captured by an enemy. He's become a slave. His master has not exhibited any sexual behavior toward him but takes him to the baths and orders him to strip. Then he orders him to unclothe him, the master, and wash him. The slave (our MC) discovers that the master has a very fine physique and becomes slightly aroused as he washes the other man. The master notices and orders the slave to be flogged for impertinence.

I'd like to add lots of detail to these events. Are they recognizable? Does it matter?

Rewriting someone else’s work, even just a few pages, can be tricky with copyright laws. If the story is under copyright, you’d need permission from the original author to publish your version. Adding lots of detail might still count as derivative work, which is protected under copyright. If the plot points are generic (e.g., prince captured, bath scene), you might be fine, but specific details could land you in hot water. Best to play it safe and either get permission or write something inspired by it instead!

 

[ElectricBlue]

Nobody owns a copyright in the phrase "Wash me." But if you are concerned, make a minor change. "Bathe me." "Wash my skin."

The odds of you actually getting into trouble for this are approximately zero, right?

This.

Prince captured, bathing scene? There must be thousands of stories written over the last two-hundred years with this trope.

There's waaaay too much over-thinking going on here.

 

[MillieDynamite]

You can use the situation, but don't use any of his writing...PERIOD! Make the story yours, not some of his and most of yours. But all your story. There's a vast difference between being inspired by work and taking what he's done and expanding it.

 

[Cagivagurl]

I am no expert on law, so all I can offer is an opinion.
My belief is it is totally wrong to (Use) another persons work. Ethically, in my mind you are stealing.
If your intention is to use the story, changing just enough so you don't get in trouble. That is still stealing, and I believe, wrong.
It's okay to be inspired by. To use their plot, the theme. None of that can be protected.

Those are only my thoughts on a process. If the original author gave you permission. That is entirely different. Why not contact them and ask?
Recently I have had some of my work stolen and it hurts to see somebody else using my characters, my developed story...

Cagivagurl

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Oh.
I understood that you wanted to publish the whole novel with only a couple of pages changed to suit your tastes. But I realize now that you merely want to publish that one scene with a lot more detail and with names changed. That's perfectly fine. No one owns the rights to some bath scene between a master and a slave.

 

[AG31]

I am no expert on law, so all I can offer is an opinion.
My belief is it is totally wrong to (Use) another persons work. Ethically, in my mind you are stealing.
If your intention is to use the story, changing just enough so you don't get in trouble. That is still stealing, and I believe, wrong.
It's okay to be inspired by. To use their plot, the theme. None of that can be protected.

Those are only my thoughts on a process. If the original author gave you permission. That is entirely different. Why not contact them and ask?
Recently I have had some of my work stolen and it hurts to see somebody else using my characters, my developed story...

Cagivagurl

I have no idea how to contact the author.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I have no idea how to contact the author.

You don't need to. You're going to write your own "bathing a captured prince" scene, just as ten thousands other authors have done before. You cannot copyright a very basic idea like that. Cue the scene of Princess Leia and Jabbah the Hutt, change sex, add soap.

All you've done here is generate yet another copyright and plagiarism thread, where no-one is reading the small print as to your intent, and you're getting confusing and for the most part irrelevant input.

As I read it, you've seen a couple of pages with the nubbin of an idea (maybe what, 500 words?), and you want to write a Lit page or two to your taste - 5000 words. I'd say just get on with it. The whole fear of copyright breach in that context is ridiculous.

It's as ridiculous as thinking, "Oh, I can't write a scene set in a café because EB does that all the time."

 

[Cagivagurl]

I have no idea how to contact the author.

That makes it difficult... I sympathise, but doesn't change my opinion. Maybe that should have been empathise...

You are clearly emotionally invested in the story. Take the theme, and write your own version. Make it yours. You are a writer with talent and skills. Weave your own tale, tell it how you wanted it told, but don't just copy and paste....

Cagivagurl

 

[ThatNewGuy]

Take the theme, and write your own version. Make it yours.

As I understand it, that is what AG31 plans to do. She writes:

The more I think about it, the more I realize that it's the underlying sexual dynamic of the scene that I'm interested in... an "idea."

She was inspired by a scene of one person washing another and now wants to put her own spin on that trope. Happens all the time.

Just because someone writes a locked-room mystery doesn't mean that they are stealing from Poe's "The Murders in the Rue Morgue."

But @AG31, I think your use of the word "re-write" in your original post does introduce some confusion:

I would like to re-write 2 or 3 pages of a book length Amazon story, written by someone else. I want to add a lot of detail.

To me, that makes it sound like you will use the original scene pretty much as it stands, but just add extra detail to pad it out, change a few character names, and tweak some dialogue.

In my view, that wouldn't be enough to "make it your own." What it means to make something your own will probably vary for every writer. Ultimately, you'll have to rely on your own ethical compass. Best of luck!

 

[Cagivagurl]

As I understand it, that is what AG31 plans to do. She writes:



She was inspired by a scene of one person washing another and now wants to put her own spin on that trope. Happens all the time.

Just because someone writes a locked-room mystery doesn't mean that they are stealing from Poe's "The Murders in the Rue Morgue."

But @AG31, I think your use of the word "re-write" in your original post does introduce some confusion:



To me, that makes it sound like you will use the original scene pretty much as it stands, but just add extra detail to pad it out, change a few character names, and tweak some dialogue.

In my view, that wouldn't be enough to "make it your own." What it means to make something your own will probably vary for every writer. Ultimately, you'll have to rely on your own ethical compass. Best of luck!

Agree entirely.
Nobody owns a plot, or a theme. There are only 7, (As I understand it.) so we're all copying somebody somewhere.

We are all influenced by the world around us, what we see, hear, read. Whether we acknowledge it or not. We are influenced. (IMO)

Where are the lines drawn... For me it is characters and story. Copy and pasting, then changing names and changing just the bits that annoy you, or you see going in a different way... That is crossing the line.

You read something and it affects you that deeply that you want to change it... In my opinion is wrong. The Author wrote it in a specific way, and it obviously worked because you the reader became emotionally invested. To change that is wrong...

As the thread has evolved, I think AG, has made it clear how they want to approach it.

Cagivagurl

 

[Audiflex]

I am no expert on law, so all I can offer is an opinion.
My belief is it is totally wrong to (Use) another persons work. Ethically, in my mind you are stealing.
If your intention is to use the story, changing just enough so you don't get in trouble. That is still stealing, and I believe, wrong.
It's okay to be inspired by. To use their plot, the theme. None of that can be protected.

Those are only my thoughts on a process. If the original author gave you permission. That is entirely different. Why not contact them and ask?
Recently I have had some of my work stolen and it hurts to see somebody else using my characters, my developed story...

Cagivagurl

You’re absolutely right, using someone else’s work without permission feels wrong, no matter how much you tweak it. Being inspired by ideas or themes is one thing, but lifting characters or plots crosses a line. It’s awesome that you’re advocating for respecting creators’ rights. And contacting the original author for permission? That’s the classy move. Sorry to hear about your work being stolen, that’s such a violation. Keep standing up for what’s right!

 

[MillieDynamite]

Plots aren't copyrightable. There are only a handful of actual plots, and I forgot the number. But supposedly, Shakespeare used them all, so you're always recycling a plot; you can only hope to do it in a unique way.

Being inspired by ideas or themes is one thing, but lifting characters or plots crosses a line.

 

[Audiflex]

Plots aren't copyrightable. There are only a handful of actual plots, and I forgot the number. But supposedly, Shakespeare used them all, so you're always recycling a plot; you can only hope to do it in a unique way.

Shakespeare definitely recycled like a pro, and look how that turned out! It’s not the plot itself but your unique voice and twists that make it fresh. Keep reinventing!