A question for the believers....

[English Lady]

Yup Stingray's got it. Belief is highly important,Jesus said it himself on more than one occassion.

What the pharisees had was empty faith. faith without action. faith based on nitpicking and skewed to give them the best of everything. Jesus was totally against that.

It's all about faith in action. Its no good just having faith and not doing your best to do good deeds as you go through your life but just the same it's no good to do loads of good deeds and have not even the slimmest glimmer of faith.

LC...I can see where you're coming from mate and totally understand the attraction of "if i just do good deeds im sorted" but theres no denying (for a Christian)some kind of faith is needed.

 

[Kassiana]

Yes...well:
1. I don't believe the Bible gets God right. I think the Bible is a collection of what fallible, frail humans believed about God and that what they believed is largely wrong.

2. It's wrong to say any non-Christian, theist or not, has "rejected" God. I don't see any Gods here. I see HUMANS. I reject what seem to me to be human ideas ABOUT God. I believe I do know God and that She has no hell and no intention to send anyone to hell.

3. There are Bible verses which say God sends people to hell. They're in Matthew and Luke respectively and are attributed to Jesus, who is warning people to fear God because HE sends people to hell. Not that they choose to go there on their own, but God sends people there.

If you want to say the Bible got this wrong, more power to you. I think it did, too. But anyone who's a Christian should at least know that Jesus said God was the one sending us to hell, not that "You send yourself to hell" stuff Christians came up with so they could feel better about their God burning us forever.

 

[English Lady]

I have no doubt about hell, it's exsistance and the fact that it is the destination for non believers.

I'm just not sure exactly what God is looking for in a believer. Thats his decison, as is who goes to hell.

Anyhow that is my belief as a believer. If you don't believe well it's all just words isn't it?

Thats the thing about faith. You believe what you believe and do so with all your soul. I believe my God is forgiving and loving but I also know he's not all about the fluffy stuff. Makes sense to me personally Why send your son as a sacrifice if everyone's on their way to heaven anyways?

And I believe Jesus is the key. Thats what I believe.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Yup Stingray's got it. Belief is highly important,Jesus said it himself on more than one occassion.

What the pharisees had was empty faith. faith without action. faith based on nitpicking and skewed to give them the best of everything. Jesus was totally against that.

It's all about faith in action. Its no good just having faith and not doing your best to do good deeds as you go through your life but just the same it's no good to do loads of good deeds and have not even the slimmest glimmer of faith.

LC...I can see where you're coming from mate and totally understand the attraction of "if i just do good deeds im sorted" but theres no denying (for a Christian)some kind of faith is needed.

It's not the attraction of the "good deeds=all good" thing, though I'd like to remind everyone that sentiment is called properly ETERNAL JUSTICE.

Part of it may be the personal. Douglas Adams is burning in Hell, but Hieronymous Bosch has the green light. The fuck? The most Jesus-like guy I knew, who was pissed on by every little sinful little asshole is having his eternity filled yet again with pain and undue suffering just because he wouldn't lie to any deity? If a God does that, he is worthy of nothing of mine, least of all my respect and faith. If he is like that, he is a Celestial Asshole and your faith, your beautiful faith is stripped of all meaning and worth.

The rest is just neccesary for the religion to have meaning. If the good are not rewarded and the evil are not punished, then eternal justice has not happened, only cronism. The system has broken down and the afterlife is sucked of all its meaning and pleasure. Would you smile in a Heaven knowing that good atheists, pagans, catholics, muslims, jews, or whatever were burning unfairly? Would you be able to love a God so self-centered and spiteful that belching for a half-hearted "acceptance" is worth more to him than living for good, for suffering when others thrived?

Am I being greedy for maintaining such? Because I'm not Christian? Fine. So be it.

P.S. I apologize for the tone of this post if it offends someone. I really do, but there's a higher responsibility I must uphold here.

 

[English Lady]

LC...how do you know? Do you know the heart of every man, woman and child on this earth? All you know is words and we all know peoples words sometimes cover up what they actually feel.

As Shanglan wisely said back near the beginning of this thread, none of us know who is in Heaven and who is not.

What you see as the greatest injustice, the greeatest imbalance is what to me is the most fairest action of all.

Anyone can come to Christ and into Heaven. Anyone at any time just via faith. makes perfect sense to me, but I admit I have a very simplistic grasp of my faith.

Jesus died once for ALL. This is what I believe and I cannot deny this faith but on the same note I won't force my faith on anyone else. I am purely stating what I believe and LC, you're more than welcome to state your beliefs too. It's only fair

I may come back to this again in a minute, but this is what I have for now. *L*

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

LC...how do you know? Do you know the heart of every man, woman and child on this earth? All you know is words and we all know peoples words sometimes cover up what they actually feel.

As Shanglan wisely said back near the beginning of this thread, none of us know who is in Heaven and who is not.

What you see as the greatest injustice, the greeatest imbalance is what to me is the most fairest action of all.

Anyone can come to Christ and into Heaven. Anyone at any time just via faith. makes perfect sense to me, but I admit I have a very simplistic grasp of my faith.

Jesus died once for ALL. This is what I believe and I cannot deny this faith but on the same note I won't force my faith on anyone else. I am purely stating what I believe and LC, you're more than welcome to state your beliefs too. It's only fair

I may come back to this again in a minute, but this is what I have for now. *L*

I'm not sure whether to be offended or not.

I'm going to try for not, but I would like to know what you meant by the first two paragraphs.

 

[English Lady]

Sorry LC..I didn't mean to offend. It's just a question I could ask of everyone. I know what is in my heart and my beliefs but I only know for certain about myself. I don't know what everyone else really believes in their heart of hearts just what they say.

It wasn't a personal attack, sorry if it came across like that, I'm still waking up *L*

 

[stingray61]

Yes...well:
1. I don't believe the Bible gets God right. I think the Bible is a collection of what fallible, frail humans believed about God and that what they believed is largely wrong.

You don't believe because you have little or no faith in God and the fact that He said The Bible was his word.


2. It's wrong to say any non-Christian, theist or not, has "rejected" God. I don't see any Gods here. I see HUMANS. I reject what seem to me to be human ideas ABOUT God. I believe I do know God and that She has no hell and no intention to send anyone to hell.

I disagree

3. There are Bible verses which say God sends people to hell. They're in Matthew and Luke respectively and are attributed to Jesus, who is warning people to fear God because HE sends people to hell. Not that they choose to go there on their own, but God sends people there.

Well technically there isn't a real road as we know it that goes to hell so someone has to actually put us there. However, You're forgetting about human free will. How many people have been told "Don't touch that it's hot" and yet still touch it just to prove it to themselves? And NO all of them aren't idiots.
It's simple really but people tend to make it more difficult as we usually do with most everything. We were given a choice, we know the options, we know where we'll go and what will happen yet some of us still CHOOSE not to follow Gods way.

The world is filled with millions of people that don't believe in a god yet some still choose to be decent and some choose to be horrible. If I were to take God out of the human equation all together, just for the sake of argument, how many more millions would choose to be horrible? They don't have to be that way, they CHOOSE to be that way. God doesn't cause us to be wrong just as He doesn't cause us to to be good, we choose that all by ourselves. Just as children choose to follow the path of their parents or not, adults choose to follow Gods path or not.

If you want to say the Bible got this wrong, more power to you. I think it did, too. But anyone who's a Christian should at least know that Jesus said God was the one sending us to hell, not that "You send yourself to hell" stuff Christians came up with so they could feel better about their God burning us forever.

The Bible also says that God doesn't cause us to sin, or tempt us, but when we allow our desires to rule us we allow sin to enter into our lives.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Sorry LC..I didn't mean to offend. It's just a question I could ask of everyone. I know what is in my heart and my beliefs but I only know for certain about myself. I don't know what everyone else really believes in their heart of hearts just what they say.

It wasn't a personal attack, sorry if it came across like that, I'm still waking up *L*

It wasn't about that.

I think I understand what you were trying to say but while I don't know the hearts of everyone, I do know the hearts of a few. I know my female best friend is devoutly Pagan. I know what I am. I know that my Christian friends are honestly Christian and not Pascal Wager Christians. And I know that my best friend was definitely atheist. He wasn't Christian on the side and his death was far too quick for him to do an insurance religion switch.

What part of me was suspecting, a cruel and inaccurate part of me, was that you might have insinuated that he may not have been good because he wasn't faithful and that his possible damnation is somehow just. I'm glad this isn't the case.

I admit that there is a personal side to my view here. It's not entirely personal, but there is a side to it. A very important side.

 

[stingray61]

H

 

[English Lady]

Oh no, of course I wasn't saying that. And I don't know as much as you don't what happened to your friend at death.

You see there is a nifty little verse (I must write it down i can never remember it and constantly have to ask my mum for it*L*) but it basically says God knows the past, the present and the future. God knows the true feelings of a persons heart and if they would accept him.

What I am saying and the only thing I am certain of is that only God knows. I don't. I know I don't.

And of course personal issues come into these things. I'd not even be in this debate if it wasn't something personal to me you know?

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

I'm sorry. I can't do this. I'm sorry.

Those that get it, thank you for putting up with me.

Those who don't can't understand why I'm quivering with rage right now. Why I can't accept that it's good and right because they made the wrong "choice". Especially the implication of choice.

 

[English Lady]

LC sorry.

 

[stingray61]

[

 

[stingray61]

There's NOTHING in hell that can be worse than what I've gone through here on Earth. Being human I will be pissed of to no end if I somehow don't make it to Heaven after what I've had to endure here.

 

[KarenAM]

Please believe me when I say that if my child doesn't get to Heaven I will be furious and will turn my back on God and go to hell rather than be in Heaven without my child. I don't care what my child ends up believing in or what he's done in his life, that's MY child and not even God will keep me away. Now if my child goes to Heaven, and I know it, but I go to hell then that's ok with me too.

I was going to stay out of this, but I have to say that this is the truest and most profound thing you've said on this subject, Stingray. It leads me to speculate that if there is a hell, then Jesus is there comforting the damned, not in heaven with the God who put them there.

Because based on my reading of the gospels I can't picture Jesus doing anything else.

 

[cloudy]

I'm sorry, y'all....I fall in Luc's camp on this.

I'm a firm believer in "live and let live," always have been, but some of the posts here almost reek of the very arrogance that drives so many away from religion to begin with. Why don't people see that?

What I believe is very, very personal, and I've shared it with a few, but if I was somone teetering on the edge of faith, arrogance would make up my mind for me very quickly.

I don't believe there is any one way, or that hackneyed message that any that don't believe exactly as I do are going to hell. *snort*

When did God become about vengeance and not about love?

I'm out.

 

[English Lady]

What is Heaven without hell? What is love without hate? What is night without day?

God works out who's going where and judges peoples hearts. I've made my peace with LC...and I will post a pasage here which I find relevent.

I do not know who is going to Heaven, in fact I'm pretty sure I'll be surprised as to who is up there when I arrive*L* Only God knows who's going to Heaven but I trust in Jesus and he said that whoever believesin him shall not perish and will have eternal life. So yeah, I believe that and thats my faith. I may be wrong but thats the chance you take right?

Ayhow my relevent passage is this:

Matthew25 :31-46

"When he finally arrives, blazing in beauty and all his angels with him, the Son of Man will take his place on his glorious throne. Then all the nations will be arranged before him and he will sort the people out, much as a shepherd sorts out sheep and goats, putting sheep to his right and goats to his left.
"Then the King will say to those on his right, "Enter, you who are blessed by my Father! Take what's coming to you in this kingdom. It's been ready for you since the world's foundation. And here's why:

I was hungry and you fed me,

I was thirsty and you gave me a drink,

I was homeless and you gave me a room,

I was shivering and you gave me clothes,

I was sick and you stopped to visit,

I was in prison and you came to me.'



"Then those "sheep' are going to say, "Master, what are you talking about? When did we ever see you hungry and feed you, thirsty and give you a drink? And when did we ever see you sick or in prison and come to you?' Then the King will say, "I'm telling the solemn truth: Whenever you did one of these things to someone overlooked or ignored, that was me--you did it to me.'

"Then he will turn to the "goats,' the ones on his left, and say, "Get out, worthless goats! You're good for nothing but the fires of hell. And why? Because--

I was hungry and you gave me no meal,

I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,

I was homeless and you gave me no bed,

I was shivering and you gave me no clothes,

Sick and in prison, and you never visited.'



"Then those "goats' are going to say, "Master, what are you talking about? When did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or homeless or shivering or sick or in prison and didn't help?'

"He will answer them, "I'm telling the solemn truth: Whenever you failed to do one of these things to someone who was being overlooked or ignored, that was me--you failed to do it to me.'

"Then those "goats' will be herded to their eternal doom, but the "sheep' to their eternal reward."



You do any of that first stuff and you're doing it to Jesus.I think he'll remember that you know?

 

[stingray61]

[

 

[stingray61]

L.

 

[babydoll2u]

TRY THIS......

"Dear sinner, do not make this a difficult matter. There is one simple step between you and Jesus. When you trust Him, everything else is settled, and you have repented, you have come to Christ, you have received Him, you have done everything necessary to be saved. Take the answer in Acts 16:31 at face value: "BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, AND THOU SHALT BE SAVED"! In dozens of Scriptures all through the Bible salvation is promised to those that believe. Read carefully the following Scriptures and see that again and again, many, many times, God has promised all any poor sinner would ever need when he believes on the Lord Jesus Christ.

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that BELIEVE on his name."--John 1:12.

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."--John 3:14-16.

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that BELIEVETH not is condemned already, because he hath not BELIEVED in the name of the only begotten Son of God."--John 3:18.

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that BELIEVETH not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."--John 3:36.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and BELIEVETH on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."--John 5:24.

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and BELIEVETH on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."--John 6:40.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that BELIEVETH on me hath everlasting life."--John 6:47.

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever BELIEVETH in him shall receive remission of sins."--Acts 10:43.

"And by him all that BELIEVE are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses."--Acts 13:39.

Read again the Scripture we started with:

"What must I do to be saved?"

"BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved."--Acts 16:30, 31.

applauds

there it is in a nutshell.
NOWHERE in the Bible does it say you have to go to a church building to be a christian. There is ONE scripture that says, "forsake not the assembling of yourselves together with those of Like faith" (paraphrased)... that can be in any kind of setting, not necessarily a church building. Biblically, the "church" is the body of Christ, or the whole group of Christians... not a building.
Also, on another note.... the word or name "Christian" means to be "Christ-like". Now, God loves everyone, christian or not. But not everyone receive the reward of Heaven. Jesus came and was an example to us of how to live, and was the perfect sacrifice for our sins, then the rest of the New Testament goes into detail in telling us how he wants us to live. It's not there for nothing. If you could believe in Jesus, accept the gift of salvation and then just live any way you wanted to.... then Acts through Revelation was written, basically, for nothing.
So yes... I do believe that even those who have accepted the gift of salvation MAY wind up not going to Heaven... why? Because just as we are given the free will to return a gift that we have been given after we've already received it, we have that same free will to return, or walk away from, the gift of salvation AFTER we've received it, as well.. That's what free will is all about.

 

[babydoll2u]

I was going to stay out of this, but I have to say that this is the truest and most profound thing you've said on this subject, Stingray. It leads me to speculate that if there is a hell, then Jesus is there comforting the damned, not in heaven with the God who put them there.

Because based on my reading of the gospels I can't picture Jesus doing anything else.

God doesn't "send" anyone to Hell.... that's a choice we make utilizing the free will that He gave us..

Additionally, If my son were to go to hell, after I've taught him all I know about God and His love and the bible and how to live right.... that's a choice HE has made.

 

[Kassiana]

Sting:You don't believe because you have little or no faith in God and the fact that He said The Bible was his word.
--Christian Psychic Network fails again. (You guys should cut it out. Really. You aren't mind readers.)

I have boatloads of faith in Gods, more Gods than you do.

The Gods never said anything in the Bible. People said God said all sorts of crap, like women should marry their rapists and that people are going to hell if they call him anything but Yahweh, but I don't believe they got it right. I don't believe anyone who claims to speak for God. It's like the guy who keeps saying "Trust me!" You shouldn't have to say "trust me" if you're trustworthy; you shouldn't have to say you're speaking for God if you really are.

Sting:We were given a choice, we know the options, we know where we'll go and what will happen yet some of us still CHOOSE not to follow Gods way.
--Well, that's not me. I know what the Gods want from me and I do it. And I know they love me so much that they'd never burn me forever for any mistakes I make. I "know" it just as surely as you "know" otherwise, whether you want to believe me or not. I know me far better than you do. I'd take my opinion on me over yours on me any day.

And I don't believe in "sin" as in "something which causes eternal separation from a deity." Nothing we do can separate us from the love of the Gods.

LC: Those who don't can't understand why I'm quivering with rage right now. Why I can't accept that it's good and right because they made the wrong "choice". Especially the implication of choice.
--Oh, I get it. There is no choice to your beliefs. You either have them or you don't. Sorry you got so upset, though. Have a loving cockatiel or two. Or a loving cocktail. Whatever.

 

[Kassiana]

God doesn't "send" anyone to Hell

Oh yeah?

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Apparently once again Jesus was wrong. I find it funny that so many Christians deny what Jesus says.

Ah, what the hell does Jesus know, anyway...

 

[babydoll2u]

There's NOTHING in hell that can be worse than what I've gone through here on Earth. Being human I will be pissed of to no end if I somehow don't make it to Heaven after what I've had to endure here.

sure there is.... separation from God.
At least here, you've had God to hang onto. There, you'd be separated from Him for eternity. Not something I want to even think about.

Making it to Heaven doesn't have a thing to do with what we've had to endure here sweetie, you know that. It has to do with how we've dealt with what we've had to endure here, and the faith and belief that we've held onto in His loving care, and how closely we've walked with Him.