A question for the believers....

[babydoll2u]

Oh yeah?

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Apparently once again Jesus was wrong. I find it funny that so many Christians deny what Jesus says.

Ah, what the hell does Jesus know, anyway...

the "him" talked about in that scripture is the devil...
God doesn't destroy in hell... that's satan's domain.

 

[Kassiana]

God doesn't destroy in hell

Well, of course. No God exists who would send anyone to hell or create a hell in the first place. There is no hell.

But the verse itself to me says that God's the one to fear because he's the one who intends to destroy the body and soul in hell. Blasphemous, yes, but that's what the original human author intended, I'm afraid.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Because the post needed attention:

Originally posted by Kassiana
(You guys should cut it out. Really. You aren't mind readers.)

Here we go:

The Gods never said anything in the Bible. People said God said all sorts of crap, like women should marry their rapists and that people are going to hell if they call him anything but Yahweh, but I don't believe they got it right.

It is rationally possible that God did say things that are contained in the Bible. You aren't possessed of direct knowledge of the history of the contents of the Bible (I feel confidant in saying that because scholars aren't either, we have some of the pieces and not all... certainly not enough to say "There is nothing of God in the Bible").

I don't believe anyone who claims to speak for God. It's like the guy who keeps saying "Trust me!" You shouldn't have to say "trust me" if you're trustworthy; you shouldn't have to say you're speaking for God if you really are.

How, then, are we to trust those to claim to speak for reality by saying He doesn't exist? That, too, seems a bit like "I know the metaphysic of the universe, me... that's right... you're all just wrong because I think differently."

--Well, that's not me. I know what the Gods want from me and I do it. And I know they love me so much that they'd never burn me forever for any mistakes I make. I "know" it just as surely as you "know" otherwise, whether you want to believe me or not. I know me far better than you do. I'd take my opinion on me over yours on me any day.

In a conflict of proposition, either one or both of the parties in question are wrong. Which is it?

And I don't believe in "sin" as in "something which causes eternal separation from a deity." Nothing we do can separate us from the love of the Gods.

Maybe, maybe not. How is this evidentiary? If Gods can love, why can't Gods cease to love? If Gods can love why is it impossible for Gods to dislike or punish? We can see how disobeying the rules of a parent can lead to alienation, happens all the time... why is it different on a cosmic scale?

 

[babydoll2u]

Well, of course. No God exists who would send anyone to hell or create a hell in the first place. There is no hell.

But the verse itself to me says that God's the one to fear because he's the one who intends to destroy the body and soul in hell. Blasphemous, yes, but that's what the original human author intended, I'm afraid.

If you read the entire chapter and read that scripture in the context in which it was intended... you'd see what I'm talking about.

 

[ihavequestions]

I think that modern religion has been used as a tool by governments to control the people (albit it hasn't worked well). This is right and wrong-see the Bible. I really wish all gov't officals were at atheists even agnostic.



And then you have the prophets who were people-are you going to tell me they didn't let their own thoughts and fears ect.. into their writings? These are Gods words, written long after Jesus died?

Now I will admit that I do believe in a God, a Higher Power. But as I turn on the news I see what organized religion has done to society. A breeding ground of hate. Hate gays, hate women, hate muslims, hate christians. Do whatever you please and confess on Sunday. Not the way I want to live.

 

[brightlyiburn]

I'm not entirely sure what I believe. I know what I don't believe, though. I don't believe in the Bible. I don't believe that some people recieve revelations and others don't. I don't believe you should live your life based on what's written in a book. A very old book that could easily have been completely mistranslated.

I think Modest Mouse sums it up nicely: "You wasted life, why wouldn't you waste death?" When people speak of someone who died and say they went to a better place, I think "If this is the world God created, why isn't this the best place?". I see people who destroy the environment and hunt animals to extinction. I listen to these Republicans spout nonsense about the sanctity of marriage, something obviously related to religion...and yet they want to drill for oil in Alaska. To think that humans will go to heaven, even though they have ungratefully destroyed the world God made for them, is disgustingly hypocritical.

But I think if there is a God, He is very much like a parent. I think He would be disappointed, but would love us and forgive us all the same. My image of God is of a sad, disappointed parent who only wanted the best for his children and mourns to see them destroying each other and their world.

I say I'm not sure if God exists, but if you ask me about my writing, I always say it was a gift from God. It's my most precious gift and I wish to use it to make others happy. If there is a God, I believe that is what He put me here for and I would not disrespect Him by being ungrateful for my gift.

 

[English Lady]

people.

you see when humans get involved it gets messy'cos you've got all these human emotions and ideas and what have you's being expressed by that person at that time.

Anyhow...we've totally gone roam abou on Snoops' thread and I hope he finds it all helpful.

We all have different beliefs snoop. Some people reckon you're free to ignore God cos he doesn't exsist. Others think you can ignore him 'cos theres not just one theres several and they're laid back kinda beings. Others think you may be in trouble it depends on how good you've been and others think faith and belief is highly important to it all and yet others think you need a mix of some kind of faith and do some good deeds too.


Yeah I don't think there is aconclusion here mate. I think you've just got to think and feel it out yourself.

 

[SnoopDog]

Well, first of all, thnx guys. I supposed this thread was up for hijacking or for pulling jokes but I really received some interesting, thought-over answers. Very nice.

Of course I see that just as there are different believes, there of course are different thoughts about the subject. I just wanted clarification whether there was an answer to this in the bible or in modern church.

In the end it comes down to the fact that I don't really bother about God's attitude 'cause there is no such thing as God.
But I was just urious about how other christians would see atheists.

By the way, I find it refreshing that the Lit community seems to have a great variety of different religions/beliefs/etc., don't you think?

Snoopy

 

[English Lady]

Glad the thread got you thinking snoop Every persons faith is different and variety is the spice of life

 

[KarenAM]

Additionally, If my son were to go to hell, after I've taught him all I know about God and His love and the bible and how to live right.... that's a choice HE has made.

And if my theory is correct, Jesus would be right down there with him, comforting him, forever, because that's just the kind of guy Jesus seems to be.

Unless, of course, I've misread the gospels terribly...

 

[English Lady]

well several times Jesus says he will be in Heaven on the right hand side of his Father and on the cross he tells the thieve that on that day they'd be rogether in paradise.

Jesus died once for ALL. Those past, present and future. He has given the ultimate sacrifice for every man woman and child who has and will ever live.

Hell is a place without God,so Jesus cannot be there.

We do not know how many people go to hell or have gone to hell. For all we know it's just satan down there*L*

 

[KarenAM]

well several times Jesus says he will be in Heaven on the right hand side of his Father and on the cross he tells the thieve that on that day they'd be rogether in paradise.

Jesus died once for ALL. Those past, present and future. He has given the ultimate sacrifice for every man woman and child who has and will ever live.

Hell is a place without God,so Jesus cannot be there.

We do not know how many people go to hell or have gone to hell. For all we know it's just satan down there*L*

Well, I guess I did misread the gospels. I appreciate your kindness and your faith, EL, but I must confess that this doesn't help my opinion of Jesus. It sounds to me like his love, and God's love, are conditional.

I really thought Jesus loved his enemies just as he told us to. I really thought he believed in forgiveness and that he would never give up on anyone.

I can't argue with your view, since I'm no theologian and don't know my Bible as well as you do. But this does explain some things in my own experience with God. Bummer.

 

[English Lady]

Jesus love is unconditional. He doesn't say "I'll love you if..." no he made his sacrifice for all.

I think you have your picture of Jesus straight, he loves everyone, cares and truly reaches out to help.

Hell is a place without God. I think you're having a problem getting your head round that.

eternity without God to me is well hell, but what is it to a person who never believed anyway?

see what I mean? Hell isn't neccessarily the fire and brimstone place of torture we think of,it is a place without God.

God cannot be in a place without God...you see?

Anyhow, no one has to go to hell and I think belief in Jesus is not something that is clear cut, talking with LC this morning showed me that.

AnyhowI'm no theologian. Just been a christian since a kid so I have 20 odd years of bible handling experience *L*

 

[KarenAM]

Hell is a place without God. I think you're having a problem getting your head round that.

eternity without God to me is well hell, but what is it to a person who never believed anyway?

see what I mean? Hell isn't neccessarily the fire and brimstone place of torture we think of,it is a place without God.

God cannot be in a place without God...you see?

I think you're right. I can't understand why hell is necissary. And I don't get why Jesus, who speaks so eloquently about love and forgiveness, would or even could dwell in heaven if he knew there were people suffering in hell. If I were in heaven and someone I loved was suffering in hell, I'd be beating down the doors to get to them and help them. Because being in heaven, no matter how nice it might be, would be worse than hell if I didn't have my loved ones around. So if Jesus loves everyone, including (and maybe especially) those who reject him, it just makes sense to me that he would not spend his time at the right hand of God but rather at the right hand of the damned, comforting and encouraging them.

But maybe I'm just silly...

 

[English Lady]

Not silly at all and you very well may be right.

thing is here we can only go on the evidence we've got and we've got to make up our own minds you know?

I know I'm gonna be going "really" and "I never knew that.." alot when I meet my maker *L*

 

[KarenAM]

Not silly at all and you very well may be right.

thing is here we can only go on the evidence we've got and we've got to make up our own minds you know?

I know I'm gonna be going "really" and "I never knew that.." alot when I meet my maker *L*

You are a credit to your faith, English Lady.

 

[English Lady]

Why thank you Karen

 

[stingray61]

sure there is.... separation from God.
At least here, you've had God to hang onto. There, you'd be separated from Him for eternity. Not something I want to even think about.

Making it to Heaven doesn't have a thing to do with what we've had to endure here sweetie, you know that. It has to do with how we've dealt with what we've had to endure here, and the faith and belief that we've held onto in His loving care, and how closely we've walked with Him.

Hi babydoll

Yes I know all about the separation from God when someone goes to hell. Some people believe that this is what hell really is and not a lake of fire and gnashing of teeth and all that. Some believe that we will have all of that including seperation from God.

The thing is that here I haven't always had God to hang onto, maybe because I "left" Him or He left me though I know The Bible says it's the former. Hey I'm human and sometimes I too have my doubts and question Gods path for us. I have yet to meet anyone that believes in God that hasn't had those same doubts.

On the other hand, if you had gone through what I've gone through and had to deal with major depression exactly as I have you too might feel some of what I have said about going to hell. I have truly felt completely alone, NO God, NO anyone to care if I was alive or not so for me I have already had a taste of hell. NO I didn't like it and I know if I go to hell I will be in pure misery but it isn't the fact that I will be separated from God that bothers me because I have already felt that way for many years even if it isn't entirely true I still felt that way in my heart and soul.

Just so you know I don't feel separated from God now and haven't for a few years. I'm just not entirely sure He is doing anything in my life to make things better but I also know I can't see everything the way He sees it or know why I have to go through what I have gone through and continue to go through. I know my past has made me a better person than I was.

I wouldn't really wish anyone go through what I have gone through and I hate very very much that I had to go through it, but I also believe that if what I've gone through can help my child or anyone else NOT go through it then going through it is almost worth it to me.

 

[stingray61]

Sting:You don't believe because you have little or no faith in God and the fact that He said The Bible was his word.
--Christian Psychic Network fails again. (You guys should cut it out. Really. You aren't mind readers.)


LOL That wasn't mind reading I was doing, it was my opinion and I'm glad to see you've replied in the manner you have.

I have boatloads of faith in Gods, more Gods than you do.

Do you believe that Jesus died for your sins and that there is one TRUE God, (well you just said you didn't believe in ONE God) do you believe that you need to repent your sins and be baptised in the Lamb to go to Heaven? I am thinking the answer is no. That would tell me that you do not in fact believe in the one true God or in The Bible as being The Word of God, or that Christ died for your sins. So yes you don't believe in God the way The Bible tells us too. Of course if the answer is YES then I apologize for saying you don't believe.

The Gods never said anything in the Bible. People said God said all sorts of crap, like women should marry their rapists and that people are going to hell if they call him anything but Yahweh, but I don't believe they got it right. I don't believe anyone who claims to speak for God. It's like the guy who keeps saying "Trust me!" You shouldn't have to say "trust me" if you're trustworthy; you shouldn't have to say you're speaking for God if you really are.


Women should marry their rapists? People are going to hell if they call Him anything but Yahweh? Please tell me where you read this, and before you do you should know that when Christ died and arose on the third day he wiped out most of the Old Tetstament rules, and gave us a couple that cover everything the Ten Commandments said and more.

Saying "Trust me" is just a way of putting exclamation on what you are saying is what you truly believe.

Sting:We were given a choice, we know the options, we know where we'll go and what will happen yet some of us still CHOOSE not to follow Gods way.
--Well, that's not me. I know what the Gods want from me and I do it. And I know they love me so much that they'd never burn me forever for any mistakes I make. I "know" it just as surely as you "know" otherwise, whether you want to believe me or not. I know me far better than you do. I'd take my opinion on me over yours on me any day.

Can you please show me where it is you got your information on what the "gods" want from you? I don't want you to take my opinion over yours I'm just expressing my opinion. That doesn't mean you have to follow it.

And I don't believe in "sin" as in "something which causes eternal separation from a deity." Nothing we do can separate us from the love of the Gods.

The Bible doesn't agree with you on that one.

LC: Those who don't can't understand why I'm quivering with rage right now. Why I can't accept that it's good and right because they made the wrong "choice". Especially the implication of choice.
--Oh, I get it. There is no choice to your beliefs. You either have them or you don't. Sorry you got so upset, though. Have a loving cockatiel or two. Or a loving cocktail. Whatever.

LOL. Saying you either have beliefs or you don't is the same as saying you do have a choice. You have a choice to believe or not.

God gave us free will therefore we DEFINATELY have a choice to believe or not to believe. As a human I don't always agree that going to utter pain or complete happiness is a very good idea of choices but then again it is still a choice we Do have. Personally I wouldn't tell my child, either believe in me and do as I say or I'm gonna never come near you again and on top of that I'm gonna toss you into what amounts to a lava flow forever.

 

[stingray61]

I think that modern religion has been used as a tool by governments to control the people (albit it hasn't worked well). This is right and wrong-see the Bible. I really wish all gov't officals were at atheists even agnostic.

Hey there, YES a great deal of people have used The Word of God to their own advantage, and for the wrong reasons. That still doesn't make The Bible wrong it makes man wrong.




And then you have the prophets who were people-are you going to tell me they didn't let their own thoughts and fears ect.. into their writings? These are Gods words, written long after Jesus died?

If you actually HEARD God talking to you and telling you what to write don't you think that would preclude you to do exactly as He says? As for me if I were to hear God or someone talking to me from out of the blue, and I knew I wasn't insane (can you know if your insane?), or a trick of technical science, I would damn sure put anything they wanted me to put where ever they wanted me to put it.

Now I will admit that I do believe in a God, a Higher Power. But as I turn on the news I see what organized religion has done to society. A breeding ground of hate. Hate gays, hate women, hate muslims, hate christians. Do whatever you please and confess on Sunday. Not the way I want to live.

I agree that organized religion has done a lot of harm to society. The thing is they are still men and flawed. The Bible says we are to question everything, and also everyone that comes claiming to be from God because there will be many false prophets.

Who is really to blame for people believing these humans and doing what they ask? Are the people telling them to do it to blame or are the people doing it to blame for believeing them?

God, and Jesus aren't about organized religion. They are about FAITH and believing.

 

[stingray61]

You are a credit to your faith, English Lady.

I guess I'm chopped liver then LOL.

Jesus has already done something very special for us. He died on the cross so that we could get to Heaven.
As a parent and a caring human being I see and agree on what you say about hell not being necassary. I don't always agree that it is either.
I have also said many many times that I can't abide or believe in a loving God that allows His children to go to hell. Now I know that it isn't God that allows us to go to hell it is we that allow that by not believing, and not following His word.

Have you ever told your children or someone you care about not to do something because you absolutely know they are going to be either physically or emotionally hurt if they do? When they went ahead and did it anyway did you become hurt also?
That's exactly how God feels when we do the things He absolutely knows will hurt us, and that includes making the decision to go to hell rather than believe in Him.

You know I have a really hard time understanding why it's so hard for people to believe in God and follow His word. It isn't like we're being asked to kill our first born or cut off our legs or anything like that.
I truly don't know anyone that can say that the world wouldn't be a better place if we could all love each other the way God has asked us to, or to believe in Him. When you truly love someone you want them to believe that what you tell them is only to help them have a better life. That's what God wants also. Why is it sooooo hard for people to believe that?

 

[KarenAM]

I guess I'm chopped liver then LOL.

Jesus has already done something very special for us. He died on the cross so that we could get to Heaven.
As a parent and a caring human being I see and agree on what you say about hell not being necassary. I don't always agree that it is either.
I have also said many many times that I can't abide or believe in a loving God that allows His children to go to hell. Now I know that it isn't God that allows us to go to hell it is we that allow that by not believing, and not following His word.

Have you ever told your children or someone you care about not to do something because you absolutely know they are going to be either physically or emotionally hurt if they do? When they went ahead and did it anyway did you become hurt also?
That's exactly how God feels when we do the things He absolutely knows will hurt us, and that includes making the decision to go to hell rather than believe in Him.

You know I have a really hard time understanding why it's so hard for people to believe in God and follow His word. It isn't like we're being asked to kill our first born or cut off our legs or anything like that.
I truly don't know anyone that can say that the world wouldn't be a better place if we could all love each other the way God has asked us to, or to believe in Him. When you truly love someone you want them to believe that what you tell them is only to help them have a better life. That's what God wants also. Why is it sooooo hard for people to believe that?

No, Stingray, you aren't chopped liver. Your unconditional love of your children is a truer testament to the good in Christianity (or any religion) than any number of praises to God I have ever heard.

Let me try to answer your confusion about why it's hard for some people to follow God, and then maybe you'll see the place I'm coming from. When you raise a child, you try and teach them to be moral, knowing that the time will come when they must make their own decisions about it. You do this because you love them and want what's best for them.

But you also try to respect them and their decisions, even when you disagree with those decisions, because you love them. Even if they do something horrible, you still cannot stop loving them (I know the mother of a murderer and this is what I saw with her). A good parent suffers for their child's mistakes and never, ever gives up on them. But the notion that one must spend eternity away from God because they disagree with God (for whatever reason) tells me that God abandons his children. God is therefore presented as a harsh, neglectful parent to his children who perhaps need him (her?) most. Such a God is passive-aggressive and selfish and unwilling to accept the complexities of the world which he himself created, the complexities of life that human parents have to deal with every day.

God, in other words, operates on a lower moral standard than his children do, and yet has the gall to condemn them and punish them. This makes God a bad parent, maybe even an abusive one.

And this, you see, is why it is so easy to reject God, just as it is understandable that a child would reject an abusive, neglectful parent. God did in fact order Abraham to kill his first-born son, just to see if he would do it. He demanded that Abraham love someone who would demand the murder of his child more than he loved that child itself. How sick is that? People say that God wants us to love each other as he loves us, but then God demonstrates that he doesn't love us even as much as we love each other. It's we who must chastize God for being immoral, and that strikes us as just plain wrong. It violates what I call the "Hasskhalla principle" (after a character in one of my novels): morality isn't in or about others so much as it's in and about yourself. God complains about the speck in my eye but ignores the larger one in his own. He needs to sort out his own moral failings before he can lecture his children on theirs.

I don't mean to offend you or any of the Christians here. I've seen the faith that Christians have work wonders, and I respect absolutely your faith and the good it has brought you. But I also know what it feels like when God ignores you and abandons you, when the promises made by Christians turn out to be empty. We are exhorted to forgive but God won't.

This wouldn't be a problem of course, if hell wasn't eternal, if people didn't describe it as the eternal abandonment of the damned by God but rather as a place where the fallible could learn from their mistakes and emerge happier, healthier, and better. But hell is described in Christian theology as eternal, making it nothing but cruelty for cruelty's sake; God the sadist.

Being a parent involves guidence and sometimes discipline. But this is always done with the hope that our child can learn and grow from their mistakes, that there is hope in their future, that they will someday get past their failings and problems. Eternal seperation from God tells me that God has given up on his children. It tells me that he is a quitter.

And this is why I say that it only makes sense that Jesus wouldn't be in heaven but would insist on going to hell to comfort the damned. Not because of how or why Jesus died, but what he said and did while he was alive. He didn't seek out and spend his time with the virtuous, he spent his time with the fallen, with the sinners, with those who life had ground down, and he brought them hope and forgiveness. It seems to me that if there is any hope for Christianity, it is in Jesus, because in the face of an abusive, neglectful, sinful God, Jesus is that big brother who won't give up on you even when your father has.

Why do Christians talk so much about why Jesus died and so little about why he lived?

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Concerning God's potential Moral Status:

I think we're making a skewed version of the God-as-a-parent analogy. We're saying that...

A) Parents love their children, look out for them, and in their knowing what's best, dictate rules for the children to live by.
B) God loves his children, looks out for them, and in His knowing what's best, dictates rules for the children to live by.

...and then we're saying...

A') Parents, upon being confronted with a disobedient child, will love them still and nurture a correction or at least resolution of the problem--not cast them out.
B') God, upon being confronted with a disobedient child, will love them still and will cast them out and not nurture correction or resolution.

...and then we conclude things like...

c1) Humans must be morally superior to God.
c2) God is unworthy of worship.
c3) Belief in such a God can't be healthy.

Here's a few problems with the conventional parent analogy (obviously, all of these work within the thought experiment presuming God's existence):

1) Not all parents are in favor of accepting the reckless, dangerous, or immoral into the fold. You'll find that there are cultures that favor a sort of familial excommunication when a child (that comes of age) chooses actions that aren't in congress with the family. This isn't a new thing. It may be a practice that has become less popular, but at the least we can say that some people act just like our analgous-God with regard to errant children. Which leads us to...
2) People are very dissimilar to God with regards to morality. I think we don't accept the parent/God analogy firmly enough, only referring to it loosely. For instance, if we accept that we are to God what children are to parents, then we are accepting that we are as blind, lost, unlearned, morally infantile, and intellectually light as children with regards to God. A child finds his parent to be obscene and grotesque in their seemingly arbitrary decision to deny the child a toy at the mall, he rants and fumes and pouts--believing himself equal to the parent with regards to toy decisions. The parent must be mean. They must obviously want to hurt him and be horrible to him. The child doesn't understand bills and budgets and $200 toys not being the sort of things that gets bought on a whim. If we are the children, in the analogy, and children that never grow to be "parents" (as we will never become God), then we must accept that Godly-decisions are as beyond our understanding as the parent's toy-choice was to the child and His decisions are categorically better than our own ill-informed and selfish ones.
3) If we hold that God is the arbiter of right and wrong (which is easy, common, hardly new), then in no possible way is our "understanding" of ethics superior. If God creates the universe and establishes that murder is wrong, punishable by torment in Hell... then that outcome is not up to moral second-guessing by murderers who say "well, then God's a bastard because I'm just murdering and if He's going to send me to Hell because of it then I'm not giving him worship". Similarly, if God establishes that lack of belief in God, in the heart of man, and divorce from the Holy Spirit (best way I can describe what God requires of people) is wrong, and similarly punished, then resentment of that doesn't make the resenter "morally superior". It makes them preferential to some other outcome. Preference is hardly ethics.

 

[rgraham666]

Well said Karen.

I loathed the movie Passion of The Christ or whatever the hell it was called. It concentrated on Christ's death and not on his life.

If they wanted to make a movie about him, it should have been The Sermon on The Mound. That's where the important stuff is.

The most influential book I ever read on religion was The Screwtape Letters by C. S. Lewis. A collection of letters from a senior devil to a nephew tempting his first human.

Did you know that one of the parade ground drills in Hell is turning into an angel of light?

And that all the deadly sins work many ways other than the stereotypes we think of?

One of the major problems with organised religion is that it often causes people to fall to the deadly sins. So many become prideful of their belief or become wrathful towards others not of their 'faith', or become avaricious of the power God apparently grants his believers.

That's my biggest beef with organised religion, many people who believe think that by believing it becomes impossible to do evil. And that of course, is exactly the moment you fall.

 

[Kassiana]

Sting: Personally I wouldn't tell my child, either believe in me and do as I say or I'm gonna never come near you again and on top of that I'm gonna toss you into what amounts to a lava flow forever.
--Then you're far better than the God portrayed in the Bible. That's exactly what he's going to do to anyone who doesn't call him Jesus.

Sting: That would tell me that you do not in fact believe in the one true God
--I believe in many true Gods, whether you agree with me or not.

Sting: you do not in fact believe in ... The Bible as being The Word of God
--Amen! The Bible is not the word of any God! That should be obvious IMO. It's the words of flawed, frail, vengeful men who got God incredibly wrong.

Sting: you don't believe in God the way The Bible tells us too.
--That doesn't mean I don't believe in any Gods at all, though. You were, far as I could tell, accusing me of being an atheist. I'm not.

Sting: Women should marry their rapists?
--Yep. Since you believe the OT is also the word of your God (Jesus) then you have to believe at one time he believed it was okay to do the following to a woman who was raped: Deuteronomy 22:28-29 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Excuse it away all you'd like, but the fact remains that even if "Jesus" later repudiated this cruelty, he helped perpetuate it from the beginning.

Sting: Can you please show me where it is you got your information on what the "gods" want from you?
--Divine revelation.

Sting: The Bible doesn't agree with you
--Good. Far as I'm concerned, there's no better way of showing I'm right.

Sting: You have a choice to believe or not.
--Okay. Believe in Allah for five minutes. Hey, you have a choice! You can go back to believing in Jesus afterward. But believe in Allah for those full five minutes as a sold-out Muslim would. I dare you.

Sting: I have a really hard time understanding why it's so hard for people to believe in God and follow His word.
--Me too, the only word the Gods have given us: this earth itself. The Bible is clearly not the word of a God.