A rational argument against free sexuality, anybody?

"Social"/"Legal" - To Lustatopia

Please, feel free to tell me whether or not I'm wrong, but I would like to try to summarize what your biggest argument is. Gay Rights Advocates tend to seem too aggressive and emotional about their argument?

Well, I'd like to point out that many groups have fought rather valiantly for rights, but I must agree. Change is indeed a frightening thing to lots of people. Take the Scopes' Trial for example. Religion VS Science, and Religion won at first. But, it was obvious that due to that trial, the scientific community gained a LOT of support, as the punishment for "violating the most fundamental truth of the bible through the vanity and imagined filth of Darwin" was a mere $100 or so fine. Aggressively trying to work with this kind of thing is necessary, the other side NEEDS to understand that gay marriage is a important issue for them. As I like to say, you learn the most about a person just by pissing them off, when they don't think logically. It's important to be taken seriously.

I do, however, agree that anger and serious like the gay-right's communities' is rather frightening. What kinds of things will they do next? How will this affect the procreational GOAL of marriage!? What if our nation's birth rate drops by 90%?!! We're DOOMED IF THEY CAN GET MARRIED!!!

I would like to talk to you all about things such as topics related to gay rights, and the effects of homophobia and gay rights. I would like to make the assumption that gay suicides also affect married men, and that there are a number of gay, married males who commit suicide due to self-image. This would leave two important repercussions. The first being that these suicidal homosexual males leave behind spouses who must take care of their children, and some of these spouses will suffer from the stress of raising their children on their own. This also means that we've lost a productive member of society, whereas that child could exist anyways with the "out-of-the-way" methods we can use today, and the woman wouldn't have been stressed. Implications of this scenario include things such as a child being exposed to prostitution at an early age, inability to connect with the opposite gender because they don't have a parent of that gender throughout their early life, and because they'll feel isolated from "in-law" parents. This will affect their psychology throughout the rest of their lives.

I would feel extremely content if someone were to go and find out what the effects of my presented scenario on the spouse and the child left behind would be.

According to a Letter from the General Accounting Office to Rep. Henry J Hyde(the resource for the following resource: http://www.religioustolerance.org/mar_bene.htm), approximately 1,400 rights are provided to married couples, including "status as next-of-kin for hospital visits and medical decisions where one partner is too ill to be competent", "immigration and residency for partners from other countries", "inheritance automatically in the absence of a will", "benefits such as annuities, pension plans, Social Security, and Medicare", "bereavement or sick leave to care for a partner or child", "decision-making power with respect to whether a deceased partner will be cremated or not and where to bury him or her", and many, many more. Now, if you were denied those kinds of legal rights, would that not be stressful?

Another resource I found in my free time(http://www.narth.com/docs/gayteens.html), referred to a study done by researchers Remafedi, Farrow, and Deisher, where they "compared gay and bisexual adolescents who had attempted suicide, to a group of those who had not. The two groups totalled 137 males, aged 14 to 21. Of that number, 41 (30%) had made at least one suicide attempt". Other findings in this research experiment were as follows:

""Self-identified gay teenagers are at greater risk than straight teenagers to attempt suicide. Gay activists say this problem is due to social homophobia, and that it will be remedied when society puts its stamp of approval on homosexuality.

Activists have grossly exaggerated the number of gay teenagers who have actually died by suicide (1). Nevertheless there is substantial evidence that such teenagers are at greater risk to attempt suicide, and thus it is important to examine the possible contributing factors

From this study we see that gay teens that attempt suicide tend to be involved to an alarming degree in drug use, early sexual activity, and prostitution--activities which also predominate in the histories of straight teens who attempt suicide.

The researchers say that suicide attempts appear to be related to "'coming out' at a younger age, gender atypicality, low self-esteem, substance abuse, running away, involvement in prostitution, and other psychosocial morbidities." In 44% of cases, subjects attributed the suicide attempts to "'family problems,' including conflict with family members and parents' marital discord, divorce, or alcoholism."

In fact, psychology has long known that homosexuality is associated with dysfunctional family structures. Statistically, gay men tend to report poor childhood relationships with their fathers, while lesbian women tend to report poor childhood relationships with their mothers (Bell, Weinberg and Hammersmith). Thus "society's oppression" seems a simplistic and misleading explanation for suicidal ideation in gay teenagers.

Among the Remafedi study's findings:

Early Self-Identification as Gay: Subjects who had viewed themselves as homosexual or bisexual at an earlier age were more likely to attempt suicide.

Early Sexual Activity: Teens who had attempted suicide were more likely to have had sexual experiences at an early age.

Broken Homes: Only 27% of suicide attempters had parents who were married (vs. 50% of the non-attempters).

Sexual Molestation: 61% of the suicide attempters had been sexually abused (vs. only 29% of the non-attempters).

Illegal Drug Use: 85% of the attempters had used illicit drugs (vs. 63% of non-attempters).

Illegal Activities: 51% of the attempters had been arrested (vs. only 28% of non-attempters).

Prostitution: 29% of the attempters had been involved in prostitution (vs. 17% of non-attempters).

Gender Conflicts: 36.6% of the attempters were classified as feminine (vs. 17.7% of non-attempters).

Effeminate Gay Males are Most at Risk

Homosexually-oriented adolescents classified as "feminine" are at the highest risk for suicide attempts, drug abuse, prostitution, arrest, and, by implication, the deadly health problems associated with unprotected anal sex. The earlier these teens self-identify as homosexual, and the more "out" they are, the greater the risk of negative lifestyle factors, according to the study.

Why is Treatment Not Recommended?

The tragedy is that there is a treatment for effeminate boys, starting at toddler age, who suffer from Gender Identity Disorder of Childhood -- that is, males who report the persistent wish to be a female. Boys who learn to be happy about being boys are far less likely to suffer the scapegoating and peer rejection that isolates them from contact with their own gender and thus prevents normal male bonding experiences.

Most prehomosexual boys are not explicitly effeminate, but nonetheless are experiencing gender-identity conflict, same-sex peer isolation, and a sense of alienation from their fathers. The same is true for girls who are suffering from gender-identity conflict. Treatment is available for these children, but instead psychotherapists often use the politically correct approach to "accept oneself as gay" rather than addressing the root problem of gender alienation.

Parents concerned about prehomosexuality in their children are often told by their pediatricians not to worry, that no treatment is available, and that the child is genetically destined to be homosexual--even though research scientists know that homosexuality is likely due to a combination of temperamental characteristics such as sensitivity or risk avoidance, environmental influences, and learned behavior patterns, and is not simply "inborn" and predetermined like eye color.

The Problem of Sexual Abuse

When an adolescent self-identifies as gay or bisexual, health-care professionals should ask, "Was this child sexually abused?" The Remafedi study reveals that 61% of self-identified gay teens who had attempted suicide had a history of sexual abuse. Sometimes a boy may not recognize an early sexual experience as abuse, but instead see it as confirmation that he is homosexual. Even adults may fail to see the incident as abuse when the abuser is another same-sexed child or adolescent. An experience of same-sex sex often establishes a lifelong sexual habit pattern in a child who is starved for same-sex attention, affection and affirmation.

The gay lobby has demanded that boys with GID be labeled as prehomosexual, and that schools and psychotherapists counsel their parents to accept the condition as normal, desirable, and unchangeable. Parents, however, have a right to know the truth, and to have access to treatment.

Today, schools issue dire warnings on the (comparatively miniscule) dangers of smoking, and tobacco companies have become liable in some cases for damages. Someday, perhaps, parents who have watched a son die of AIDS will decide to sue their pediatrician because when they brought the child for treatment for GID, they were told not to worry, or that nothing could be done. Perhaps the parents of another boy will bring suit against a school system which labeled the child as unchangeably homosexual and turned him over to a gay support group, where he contracted AIDS.

In both cases, proper diagnosis and treatment might have prevented a negative outcome.
""

I put up all info from the website(directly or indirectly), for the sake of extra debate. I will brazenly show the flaws in my argument, as to be honest, while I support gay rights, I am not overly-adamant about the social issue. I instead am closer to being one of those who are undecided on the issue. I decided to bold some of the info, to bring important info on both sides(or at least try to). Thank you very much for reading. I hope to hear responses to this statistic, and hope to have provided information for both sides of the argument in my research article.

I sorta feel this is a good place to stop with my arguments, and I'd be wonderful to hear any arguments against my statements.
 
Then what should you do for your life? Go and slaughter a family of straight religious zealots? Discredit them by causing a nation-wide scandal with some big priest having sex with a little boy?

What other choice do you have, but rational debate? Where will you turn, violence? Rage? And discredit everything you're fighting for? Look at it this way... What alternatives do you have, if you want to improve a society's view of homosexuality?

Stella... which is more important in today's society:
Religion?
Science?

Which is more important to today's society? Do we still think God made the world in six days? Religious advocate William Jennings Bryan himself had to admit that it was probably bullshit.
 
Then what should you do for your life? Go and slaughter a family of straight religious zealots? Discredit them by causing a nation-wide scandal with some big priest having sex with a little boy?

What other choice do you have, but rational debate? Where will you turn, violence? Rage? And discredit everything you're fighting for? Look at it this way... What alternatives do you have, if you want to improve a society's view of homosexuality?

Not only am I going to refer to that, I want to ask you a question. Which is more important in today's society: Religion? Science?

Which is more important to today's society? Do we still think God made the world in six days? Religious advocate William Jennings Bryan himself had to admit that it was probably bullshit.
We obviously chose science, as we're now teaching the theory of evolution, rather than creationism.

I like to see that it's your life though. That means that you're a perfect example for me to take of the homosexual community. Please, show kindness and prove to me that I shouldn't have anything to worry about from the gay community. Be an example to prove Lustatopia's argument, about anti-gay people needing to fear the homosexual community's aggression, wrong.

If rational arguments didn't matter, slavery wouldn't exist.
If rational arguments didn't matter, then nuclear war would've happened already.
If rational arguments didn't matter, then we wouldn't've become a scientific society.
Calculus wouldn't exist.
Science would be cast aside as trash.
And most importantly, if rational arguments and logic didn't matter, then we'd have INTELLIGENT people in power. People who know EXACTLY how to manipulate others in order to create situations where they can satisfy their own greed, and at the same time not create an imbalance with the world, as many governments do today. Because if rational thought was useless, only the greedy and intelligent would bother learning logic, and they would easily use it to manipulate people into deceiving themselves into thinking they live in a perfect world, as was done in "The Giver".

Don't throw your temper tantrum at me for trying to keep this place from ever getting out of control.
Don't screw yourself over by thinking that rational thought is completely worthless.
And most of all, stop giving up. A fight never ends unless someone stops fighting. And so, if you decide to stop fighting, then it's your own damn fault you'll never get rights. I'm a sarcastic asshole, ya' know, so I don't give a shit how much I piss you off. But it pisses ME off to hear someone as passionate as you give up on what you've been longing for so long, just because of pessimism towards the human race. Pessimism about humanity only brings us further into chaos, so I don't want you sprouting your pessimism here. Thank you kindly. ^^
 
*sigh*

Dude I have managed to not slaughter anyone yet. I'm doing okay on that front. Just don't try to police my tone, thank you. Venting on the internet is how I avoid screaming at.. yanno.. strangers. Or my boss.

Look, if you want to try rational arguments, I'm fine with that. I wish you all the best. :rose:

I like to see that it's your life though. That means that you're a perfect example for me to take of the homosexual community. Please, show kindness and prove to me that I shouldn't have anything to worry about from the gay community. Be an example to prove Lustatopia's argument, about anti-gay people needing to fear the homosexual community's aggression, wrong.
Why? What will that get me, a private life with my choice of companions?

I am not a perfect example of the homosexual community." any more than you are a perfect example of straight white men.

I'm a bisexual butch dyke entangled in a hetero marriage with children, and every morning of my life I've woken up grabbing for a penis that doesn't actually exist, which makes me also genderqueer. There is no "perfect example" because the "community" that you expect is a heteronormative myth, right along with the happy darkies singing in the cotton fields. You get to deal with one. Person. At a time. Just like the rest of us do.

How about YOU be an example of basic respect, and prove that you don't look upon the gay community as a petting zoo or a museum full of curiosities.

here's something for you; Louis Marinelli, who was a major cog in the National Organization for Marriage, quit ,recanted, apologised, and has become a vocal supporter of same sex equal rights.

Read the link. He presents his own ugly words and his own rebuttals for those words. it's fabulous! makes me weep with gratitude! I don't have to do it myself! I can just be sick and tired for a little bit.

So it can happen. Sometimes in a big way. We have to remember that.
 
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Stella_Omega, I don't think I've mentioned lately how much I love your posts. :rose: :rose:

M2VIIDS, why should we spend years and years defending our stance that we should be allowed basic rights? That we should be allowed the legal freedom to marry who we want, the legal right to be there for our spouse in hospitals and such, why should we *have* to spend years and years "rationally debating" this over and over, to a bunch of people who don't give a shit what we say? These people, the ones who picket any sort of glbt-gathering and shout it from the rooftops that we are sinful, these people are NOT going to listen to rational debates. They don't care! So why the heck should we upset ourselves trying to debate it?
 
Don't twist my words. I don't look down at any living people as experiments, nor am I interested in social experiments of any time. You are not a petting zoo. You're a group of people, whom are diverse. My words are far closer to trying to remind you of what some people might feel if such arguments are made in public locations. Imagine if one of the greatest advocates for gay marriage didn't consider and rebuttal the other side's arguments, and just said "Fuck you"? I can't imagine that it would end well.

I am treating you as a leader of the pro-gay rights debators in this forum, and will act as such. You are being treated from a non-emotional standpoint because I refuse to blatantly say one side is right without understanding the entire circumstance. The Arizona bill taught me to do that. I respect you, and therefore, I will not look down on you as someone who simply rants and rants, I won't treat you with the sarcasm I would give a troll. I hope for you to remain as a part of this forum, and I also realize that your anecdotal arguments are going to be far more poignant than such things as my simulated scenarios. I'm glad that you gave us a good resource, and a good way of arguing against those people who are anti-gay rights. To take their arguments and tear them apart. But you live this battle, so you obviously have every right to be emotional about it. I would welcome that, honestly. I want to understand every sides' view, and who knows? I might end up using what goes into this forum to create a research essay to help promote the detrimental effects that homophobia wreaks on a society. But I can't do that if my information is biased, or if people succumb to the ugly rage that we all try so hard to repress, many times successfully. I get that I might be getting a little extreme with my comments, yes, so I won't police your tone. That was over the line. The only reason I really did that was because I was pissed off because you seemed to think the situation to be hopeless.

I want this to be a place of hope, of understanding, of exposition to new ideas, and thoughts, and stances that we may never have considered before. I want this place to be taken seriously, as it is now, but also want it to remain intelligent, as it is now. It's good for now, and I want it to stay this way. And I panic, and am desperate to keep my first real forum pure and uncorrupted by insolence, by prejudice, by the fools whose actions really do resemble the physical nature of the creature which they are named after. And you're not a person who's really done anything wrong, but I can't stand when people try to say "it's impossible", in any area. A fight's only over when we submit. That is my firm belief. And while you may find that foolishly optimistic, I do not. I believe that if we pool together the dreams, hopes, pride, fervor, dedication, and seriousness of a large enough group, an army of soldiers with weapons that can overcome even the so-called "Will of God", or the wall that we have given the name "impossibility" to. I'm an optimist, yeah, but I don't think I'm wrong.
 
Marie, I honestly think that, the way society's going, it doesn't look like you've got much a choice. What else will you do? Give up? We stay locked up for days at a time for any issue for one reason, we debate these issues for one reason. To make a change.

Honestly, Marie, I can only say that you don't have to argue. Being straight, it certainly doesn't affect me whether or not you marry freely. But I still sit here.

I want you to understand, You're not going to just be GIVEN those rights. We Americans fought for our rights, and we died so many times for our freedoms... for our rights. Are you saying your time isn't worth as much as their lives? I just think that it's time for a change, I guess.

If not, you'll never get those basic rights. If you want that change, but don't want to fight, then you won't get that basic right. It seems kinda silly that, because you're sick of fighting, you won't get what you're fighting for. I'm behind you 100%, but only if you're willing to fight for it. Because I feel that to argue this, I need to be completely informed, otherwise, I'll make a huge mistake, and anything I say will be completely discredited.
 
I never said I wasn't willing to fight for it. I'm willing to fight for it in ways that might actually *matter*. I'm willing to petition and go to council meetings and do all of those things that might actually make the people in charge *listen*. I will not, however, debate my rights to homophobes who aren't going to listen, aren't going to care, and really don't have the power to decide it in the long run anyways. I will not get in fights day after day after day with people who will not open up their mind and actually listen. I will not waste my breath with people who will shout that their way is right, no matter how much I debate or defend. I *will* defend and fight, to the people who matter. That includes people I care about, like my family and friends, and people in the government who might actually give me those rights. And that's it.
 
I'll say it once. I've learned from the Arizona bill not to judge a book by its cover, as you'll be made out a fool by saying an argument, or assuming something about the other side that might not be true. And I will not argue for one side without understanding other side. Because when discredited once, by your own faults, my personal experience dictates that your words won't be taken seriously again, until you prove that you're trustworthy.

I'll stand behind you, if you're willing to stand. Only then.

I have hope put in all of you, have invested in your issue, when it shouldn't matter to me. But it does. So I'll stand and fight here. With or without you, now. Because I'm willing to fight. So I'll put some substance behind my arguments. I'll learn to stay in control in the faces of the worst and most intolerant people. Because I'm willing to fight.

Now, let me ask... is it ridiculous enough to fight for a right that should be natural that you're willing to stand and fight, like I am? Or are 1,400 legal I thrights, benefits, and responsibilities not worth fighting for? I think it's worth fighting for, so I will. So, stand beside me to fight, or join the oppressed and lay down your arms, and beg for what little scraps or freedoms that they'll give you. It's your choice.

It's not even my attempt to upset you. I'm trying to make you realize how silly it is. But if you get a silly right that should be yours naturally, then maybe you can get the rights more complicated, until you're considered truly equal.
 
Thanks for the pep talk, seriously, but no need.

I know you mean well, it's painfully obvious. But I wonder who you think you're talking to? Marie is still alive. She's survived. She doesn't need anyone to tell her what to do or how to do it. Don't you realise that you're making the same assumptions about her that you just did to me? Come on now, show some respect for the people who were here before you and will be here after you've left.

If you didn't mean it when you told me I was a perfect example of the community and therefore i should provide you with an optimum gay encounter, please-- just don't say it unless you mean it. Don't tell me I've twisted your words, Honey, I took them at face value.
Imagine if one of the greatest advocates for gay marriage didn't consider and rebuttal the other side's arguments, and just said "Fuck you"? I can't imagine that it would end well.
I think most of us would applaud, actually. In essence, we've been told "fuck you" at every step of the way, no matter how rational our rebuttals have been. Even when our rational rebuttals convince the California State supreme court, they don't matter. We have a judgment in our favor sitting in legalistic limbo while people die waiting for the chance to make use of it.

If you really want to do something, my friend, add your name to the mailing list at http://couragecampaign.org and sign every single petition that comes into your inbox. Believe it or not, it helps. That would be allying yourself in a useful way.

Maybe you can add http://cuentame.org as well, and http://credocampaign.org too. Switch your cellphone plan to credo mobile away from ATT. Donate a few bucks to planned parenthood. take a neighborhood watch patrol around your local gay ghetto, maybe you'll keep someone from a visit to the ER. Remind someone that "gay" is not an insult.

Do not, however, come here to raise the spirits of those poor little sad and sorrowful gay folks. That's simply rude.
 
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You think you can really understand the issue without hearing the real arguments that the other side has?

If so, go ahead. But this is a place to discuss this issue with the cool head that actually is to learn... I want you to learn, so that you can humiliate the people who argue against you. An overwhelming victory will have more of an impact than a "barely got out" victory. But if you understand the other side well enough to work, then go ahead. I mean it. But it's awful arrogant to assume you know everything about an argument. That's one reason I created this thread.
 
As a quick note, I dislike how I feel cut off from what you two are saying in alteration, because I can't keep up. =_=""
 
You think you can really understand the issue without hearing the real arguments that the other side has?

*Snortlaughs* Oh my. If the other side *had* any "real arguements" beyond the whole it's in the Bible, this is the way it's always been, we shouldn't ruin the sanctity of marriage, etc etc crap, then I'd certainly listen! But as this thread has proven fairly well, most of the other side has no logical, rational arguements.
 
Stella, do you think they'd've let someone who just took ignorance and said "Fuck it, it's not worth fighting for, since you're ignorant" would be taken seriously. It sounds like an excuse, is all I was saying. And yes, you've been screwed every which way. But are you gonna lower yourself to their level? It's because they say this kind of stuff that nothing ever changes in a society. If there're problems, we've gotta deal with 'em. I'll take your website, so thank you kindly for providing. But I won't assume I can safely/correctly deal with this kind of thing. I can't judge that which I don't understand. So, I'll listen to both sides, and speak for both sides, in order to LEARN about both sides. In order to judge this issue in the way I feel necessary.
 
Page 1 of the thread. Look at what Lustatopia offered to you. Look at the concept that marriage is an institution for the creation of a potentially productive member of society. That's what I'm trying to discredit. A logical, understandable argument, with somewhat legitimate concerns, depending on what our population growth rate is in our nation. We also need to understand that, being a fully developed nation, growing nations which may not be able to withstand the problems of having a lower population growth rate, may try to follow our example, and therefore suffer due to lower healthcare, and even then, an overall decreased quality of living. Look at the demographic transition model, and try to realize why population growths are larger in the very beginning of a society's life, and why those population growth rates decline closer to the more modern stages of the demographic transition model, and why the patterns DO tend to follow the patterns that they do.
 
Stella, do you think they'd've let someone who just took ignorance and said "Fuck it, it's not worth fighting for, since you're ignorant" would be taken seriously. It sounds like an excuse, is all I was saying. And yes, you've been screwed every which way. But are you gonna lower yourself to their level? It's because they say this kind of stuff that nothing ever changes in a society. If there're problems, we've gotta deal with 'em. I'll take your website, so thank you kindly for providing. But I won't assume I can safely/correctly deal with this kind of thing. I can't judge that which I don't understand. So, I'll listen to both sides, and speak for both sides, in order to LEARN about both sides. In order to judge this issue in the way I feel necessary.
well, hang around then. Mostly on this forum which is, let's face it, a porn site, you're going to get sex talk. I like pussy. I love fucking. That's why I came here in the first place. I came here to get way from politics. Sometimes I have to remind myself about that-- or people like you remind me by trying to force politics on me in my safe space.

I'll tell you, I really like marinlli's counter arguments, because he actually understands the mindset of the people who make them-- far better than I do because I am not one of those people.

As far as I know the sort of folk who want to force their lives on me have a hard time with anything more than a soundbite. They really honestly believe that a short funny sentence is truer than a long and careful one-- and the funny doesn't have to have anything to do with the topic. I suggest you go look at marinelli's arguments as try to construct them into funny little soundbites. I would be so very grateful to you for doing that!

And really-- join courage campaign, credo, cuentame.
 
Stella, no, I don't.

I told you all that I created this thread to TRY to BETTER UNDERSTAND the ENTIRE ISSUE... I don't want to end up getting overly emotional about all this. I'm trying to tell you what I feel I SHOULD tell you. Whether it's the right thing or the wrong thing, I just am saying what's on my mind. Nothing more, nothing less. If there's something I'm mistaken about, do what you've been doing tonight, and TELL ME. So that I can learn.

Tell me if what I stated last is complete bullshit. If so, I'll admit that I might be wrong. But there might be some argument that we don't know about. Assumptions are the folly of the informed.
 
Ironically, I decided to post here BECAUSE this is for sex...

People here tend to be far more open about their sexuality, which is why I chose to put this kind of forum to put in this kind of place. ^^""
 
Alright Stella, I'll look up this guy. ^^

I told you earlier that I'd treat you with respect. So, I'll take you seriously, and look up this guy. But only when I feel that I can safely leave this place without any one side taking over this forum. It's a debate forum, not a promotional forum. It's sorta hypocritical, but I want to keep this place open to all groups. It's rather foolish, but I want to understand all the possible arguments. But if I leave now, then this place will probably become extremely concerned towards one side.
 
Stella, no, I don't.

I told you all that I created this thread to TRY to BETTER UNDERSTAND the ENTIRE ISSUE... I don't want to end up getting overly emotional about all this. I'm trying to tell you what I feel I SHOULD tell you. Whether it's the right thing or the wrong thing, I just am saying what's on my mind. Nothing more, nothing less. If there's something I'm mistaken about, do what you've been doing tonight, and TELL ME. So that I can learn.

Tell me if what I stated last is complete bullshit. If so, I'll admit that I might be wrong. But there might be some argument that we don't know about. Assumptions are the folly of the informed.
Jeeze dude, I already told you. Honest.

Join cuentame, couragecampaign, credo. Sign the petitions, fork over five dollars once in a while if you can-- we can fo a hell of a lot with pinpointed funding. And those three organizations have very high result records, and use less funds for office expenses than you can believe.

Do some eavesdropping if you like-- but lit is a porn forum, not activist central.

But only when I feel that I can safely leave this place without any one side taking over this forum.
Don't worry sweetie, your thread will probably drop right off the first page once you leave. You've kind of drowned it, actually. We're going to talk about pussy and stuff-- the thread will be waiting for you when you get back. :)
 
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I heard what you said, and I probably will

I get what you're saying, and it feels like debate has ceased for now. I probably will sign up on those websites, when I'm no longer using my cell phone to respond to everything you guys say. It's irritating to be using this kind of a method to cummunicate... =_=""

Pain in the ass cell phone.
 
I probably have drowned it. But only if you guys leave~. Is that not the case? If you find this to be of interest, or to be worth enough to go on discussing, then it MIGHT not die.. But it probably will... ^^""
 
Another thread that began with a search for some reason descends into the third level of Dante's hell.

Really doesn't give one much hope for humanity when a minority who have the most to gain from enlightened rational debate based upon evidence choose to imitate the the very same violence the forces of oppression have use against them for the last thousand of years.

Imagine if blacks in the deep south had decided to fight white oppression by lynching the man? Uh huh. Thought so.

Stella's excuse? Well, the bloody hope and change ain't coming along fast enough. Maybe a little hatred will motivate them Christians, Muslims, Jews, Indians, Chinese, Republicans, until all 5 billion straight assholes on the fuckt-up planet realize just who the hell they are dealing with! Yeah, let's kick some ass, Marines! Pass the ammo!

I suggest that Stella be the first to blow himself up in a shopping mall for the Gay Jihad against the straight world. Heck, that'll stop him from venting on his boss tomorrow!

What we need is the GAY NUKE! That'll up the ante.

Apologies for the satire above. But it's hard not to laugh at this thread as the perfect example why some variety of gay legal rights to the same privileges that het couples enjoy isn't forthcoming.

Stella, go back and re-read your posts, fer crissakes.

On the GB I've tried to show that the racist idiot birther Busybody who insists on calling Obama a "nigga" is actually a huge liability to anyone who rationally opposes the Obama administration for whatever reason because Obama supporters can simply point to hateful racist scum like Busybody as an ally of any honest American who opposes Obama's agenda and paint the whole opposition with the Busybody KKK brush.

I KNOW you, Stella, are not a bad or hateful person at all, like Busybody or Wboro, but occasionally you succumb to the same kind of less than rational rhetoric that identifies them as members of hate-based extremist groups.

In fact, I KNOW that gays have a fucking reason to be pissed off because I'm fucking queer as a lefthand wrench myself and have been subjected to discrimination all my life. Yet, I have refused to allow bullies to define my identity. Therefore, I am far more dangerous than a mere victim of discrimination. I'm what happens to when being subjected to the trials of het culture is used to selectively strengthen rather than submit to victimization.

I never get mad. I get even. The way you get even is by beating them inside their own system playing by their own rules. The first to get mad always loses. And Stella, you lose every time, my dear, because you're emotions are out of control. If you had a gun and lived in Beirut or Detroit you would have already killed. You couldn't survive for a week in our corporate, political or academic institutions without charges being laid.

You got to be smarter than them.

And you know what? The smartest fucking thing in the whole fucking world is to respect the Other. Why? Because WE want respect. You think you can force respect out of somebody by disrespecting them? Maybe, but you'll need an AK-47.

The cycle of disrespect has to be broken somewhere. If we are so fucking intellectually superior, you'd think we'd take it upon ourselves to break the cycle regardless of what our opposition is prepared to concede.

Clever people always choose peace and empathy over violence and failure to communicate. Never ever tell someone to fuck off, unless you are prepared to back that statement up with a generation of hate and kiss your political objectives good-bye.

Always project your love. Amplify your love! Learn to love what you don't know you can love. If you are lucky you might even be able to spread your love like a blessing. Love is contagious. No one kills or hates people that love. And you won't be able to hate or kill what you learn to love in return. Peace. It's the most valuable commodity in the world. It's the true definition of being rich, man. You got peace, you got it all.

Years ago as a post-grad I was honoured to study Margaret Mead's hand written notes from her research of the interface between the clans of Samoa. What was fascinating was the deference that meetings between conflicting clans exhibited, the courtesy, the kindness, the attention to details of comfort, the putting aside past cultural slights. I've study the interface between cultures ever since and the striving for empathy and good manners that I have witnessed in otherwise very dangerous situations seems to show how humans managed to get this far without exterminating each other.

But, because we are typing words into a black box we are no longer sitting about a fire, weapons at our feet, darkness at our back with our strangely different hosts, hoping our sign language and customs will cut across the divide. So we can shout mindless hatred at each other without fear of immediate reprisal. Yet I fear that we, the most modern and enlightened of any human civilization that has ever existed are falling down.

And you, Stella, have no idea how far that fall can actually go.
 
Learn some history

Slavery wasn't stopped by rational arguments. It was stopped by the emotional appeals (many were VERY over the top) of abolitionists, some of which were injured by mob violence and even killed.

Women's rights weren't won by rational arguments. They were won by the emotional appeals (many were VERY over the top) of suffragettes, some of which were injured by being arrested and subjected to what would today be called police brutality and torture.

Racial rights weren't won by rational arguments. They were won by emotional appeals of Martin Luther King, Jr., Malcolm X, Stokely Carmichael, Caesar Chavez, and others. They were jailed, beaten, and even killed for their belief in equality.

The right to be gay and not face prosecution for it has its birth in the Stonewall Riots in Greenwich Village. When the AIDS epidemic broke out, public attention was bought by the lives of thousands of gay men. ACT UP, among others, participated in street theater and protests specifically designed to break the hardened hearts of America.

Equality is never granted because someone calmly lays out a case for it. It is won when a group organizes and fights for it. And part of fighting for it is appealing in terms that motivate people to fight and to see the injustice of the status quo.
 
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