accepting trump

[BotanyBoy]

He can't even
bring himself
to acknowledge
the Nordic Model

I've acknowledged social liberalism on numerous threads bubba.

Even support several policies based on the concept from public healthcare to public education.

But that won't ever make it socialism.

Your desire to re-define terms to suit your political biases notwithstanding.

All America wants
is a stronger safety net
the same kind
of "socialism"
that he enjoys

No, not the same kind Rob.

Compensation =/= social welfare....no matter how dishonest you try and be about that.

He's the king of broken records..

Another uneducated dolt who celebrates his ignorance.

At least Rob doesn't cower behind iggy like you.

 

[cowslinger64]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-air-force-one-redesign-house-armed-services-165439358.html


During an interview with ABC News this week, President Trump unveiled a new color scheme for Air Force One that he said he designed himself for the next generation of the presidential fleet of Boeing 747s. But lawmakers who have to approve the cost might have different ideas.

The red, white and blue layout Trump came up with is a departure from the blue-and-white scheme that has been in place since the 1960s. Last year, Trump struck a deal with Boeing to purchase two Air Force One planes at a cost of $3.9 billion.

However, the president’s design dreams were potentially undercut across town at Wednesday’s House Armed Services Committee’s markup of the 2020 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA). Rep. Joe Courtney, D-Conn., put forth an amendment that would require congressional approval for changes to the paint scheme and interior design of Air Force One. Although Republicans said it seemed like a poke at the president, Courtney defended it as an economy measure.

 

[icanhelp1]

bb
i do not misunderstand your positions.
i find them - to me at least - myopic.

the ideals of which you espouse
are most admirable in a vacuum.
but like all ideals, they are always challenged by
and tempered by circumstance.

they may even be "attainable" in a self sustained cloister.
but our circumstance begins just where free speech ends;
at the space just outside the tip of your nose...
or your property line.

i know. i know.
you've collected your bullets
for your arsenal
and your cadre of like-minds
to protect that property line...

but there are only so many bullets:
manufactured by a working social order
with social needs and aspirations outside of those in your cloister.

those social-isms that keep the rabble from storming your gate
far longer and far more effectively than your last bullet
are what our society does - as a slow, plodding, often inefficient mass
and is as american as any violence you might claim
as your endowed, final, liberal right.

it is not antithetical.
it's just a different approach to moderate between the extremes
of the truly antithetical ideal of the poles you say we must
somehow choose.
choose either as an ideal... an aspiration to be worked towards?
our society protects that...
to impose either by fiat? or bullet? on the greater society?
your property line... recognized and protected first by a socialized order
of that space outside - is the wall to your realm in that...

back to trump.
trump is about trump. full stop.
he is your exemplar.
and it is quite extra-ordinary.

You misconstrue the banter here as the lay of the land. Most americans are centris at heart. Trump is not the problem but symptomatic to generational change. It's deeply rooted in our educational system as the left goes farther left and the right goes farther right. The left is incubating in our schools and growing into a wholesale change. The young are no longer taught the glorious history of this great nation but taught by elitess educators that we are a nation of sins. Our children are being swayed to reject our founding principles and values.

We teach our children that competition is a weakness, that everyone wins and there are no losers. Our children our developing a need for government sustenance and entitlement rather than independence and self reliance as we race towards mediocrity. Individual success through hard work is becoming antithetical to wealth. People that are wealthy are being scorned. When wealth redistribution becomes the norm, innovation, the razor's edge of our society will slowly dissipate. To punish hard work by striving for an equal society will cause us as a nation to fall behind.

We as a nation spend more per/capita on education than any other nation in the world. Just 25 to 30 years age we ranked in the top 3 in education and now we rank 38th. Why do you suppose that's happening. One theory is, we as parents have transferred the responsibility of child rearing to our schools and discipline has become a lost art. College institutions run by students. Students making demands on faculty or they protest in the streets and burn their own facilities down, pure lunacy. We tear down statues that are rich with history for a false sense of good feelings, moral equivalence. We have defined nice things to have as alienable rights. That's not the definitions our forefathers had in mind, but by the Sander's Doctrine everything is a right.

There are three types of people in our great land the 'go getters' the 'happy go lucky' and the gamers. When the gamers outnumber the other two we're in trouble.
Just my humble opinion.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Our children are being swayed to reject our founding principles and values.

Seems he thinks those are all undefinable...unknowable things that are mere shades of grey and at least somewhat compatible with any sort of political values no matter how DIRECTLY opposed to traditional US values they are.

Nothing more American than a totalitarian god state confiscating all private property, censoring speech with an iron fist, taking all guns and telling people what jobs they'll be doing in the name of equity....it's all shades of grey!!

 

[cleaver]

no. no rage vent at all...
observations.

nor do i ascribe to your polarization.
the observation there is simply that
the binary makes it so much easier for those who subscribe
to...
discriminate.

line the enemy up.
create a list.
bring in the cattle cars...

that's the danger.
clinical...
anti-social

Good...that's what it's there for.

---

Why is it dangerous?

It's not anti-social to have standards, to have values, to not just accept everything as something that is ok.

Rape...is NOT ok. Or do you not subscribe to that polarization either?

Is there a shade of grey in that for you or does no mean no?

What about murder??

Robbery??

What are your values if you have any at all Cleaver??

so now my morality is the strawman of your fervor?
i'm perplexed, but not surprised.

unamerican, socialist, immoral?
where's the line for the train?

perhaps i should plead for an executive pardon
from the blonde haired guy
who's played fast and loose
with at least 7 of the 10 commandments?

i dunno really where to go with your last one...

 

[BotanyBoy]

so now my morality is the strawman of your fervor?
i'm perplexed, but not surprised.

unamerican, socialist, immoral?
where's the line for the train?

perhaps i should plead for an executive pardon
from the blonde haired guy
who's played fast and loose
with at least 7 of the 10 commandments?

i dunno really where to go with your last one...

No....your apparent inability to understand some things aren't shades of grey and there are polarities at work is what I'm digging at.

Being against murder is a shared value, throughout the USA.

I'm asking you if you're solvent and willing to draw a fuckin' line in the sand on that or do you consider that value yet another undefinable shade of grey just like all the others you seem to think are shades of grey.

Because if we start there...and you can label that value in the black and say "NO, murder is bad and I don't support it. Murder prohibition is an uncompromising position necessary for our society to function." then we can work our way towards US political values and I'll see where you start to go grey. Because there are a lot of folks out there that don't consider US political values to be totally flexible shades of grey with no polar opposites. Free speech for example.

But let's not get ahead of ourselves here....let's just go with murder.

Can you put that in the black or is it just another shade of grey??

Please note, murder is a specific legal term and not to be confused with homicide.

murder
n. the killing of a human being by a sane person, with intent, malice aforethought (prior intention to kill the particular victim or anyone who gets in the way) and with no legal excuse or authority.

https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1303

 

[RobDownSouth]

I've acknowledged social liberalism on numerous threads bubba.

Even support several policies based on the concept from public healthcare to public education.

But that won't ever make it socialism.

Your desire to re-define terms to suit your political biases notwithstanding.



No, not the same kind Rob.

Compensation =/= social welfare....no matter how dishonest you try and be about that.



Another uneducated dolt who celebrates his ignorance.

At least Rob doesn't cower behind iggy like you.

Once moar, with feeling....
https://i.imgur.com/9tTjyJw.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Zg9Y7De.gif

 

[BotanyBoy]

Once moar, with feeling....
https://i.imgur.com/9tTjyJw.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Zg9Y7De.gif

It's not spin when it's a fact Rob.

Compensation =/= welfare....no matter how much spin you try and put on it.

 

[cleaver]

No....your apparent inability to understand some things aren't shades of grey and there are polarities at work is what I'm digging at.

Being against murder is a shared value, throughout the USA.

I'm asking you if you're solvent and willing to draw a fuckin' line in the sand on that or do you consider that value yet another undefinable shade of grey just like all the others you seem to think are shades of grey.

Because if we start there...and you can label that value in the black and say "NO, murder is bad and I don't support it. Murder prohibition is an uncompromising position necessary for our society to function." then we can work our way forwards towards what I and most folks consider US political values that aren't just shades of grey that can be compromised on like free speech/expression.

But let's not get ahead of ourselves here....let's just go with murder.

Can you put that in the black or is it just another shade of grey??

Please note, murder is a specific legal term and not to be confused with homicide.


https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1303

really?
with more definitions - as if i were as daft as this line of...
questioning seems to be?

or do i totally miss your intent in this?

are you trying to lead me to some point?

political values are not black and white, bb.
they are fluid and ever changing;
subject to experience and circumstance.

the founders needed no definition to understand the fluidity
necessary to accommodate that truth.
the political document they created was one of compromise, itself;
set in stone to embrace the political values that emerged from the greys.

murder? rape?
not up for discussion.
nor should this have been introduced into
a discussion such as this - except as.... diversion?
the morality and legality of these - longstanding absolutes
from before times of the written word.

question my morality in an otherwise honest political discussion?

political, by definition, is the grey.
it is the discourse on those issues that are indeed not so absolute
with intent to discern common ground
on which a society most effectively operates.

you are the absolutist in the political...
which, by definition, is the antithetical.

so there!

 

[BotanyBoy]

or do i totally miss your intent in this?

political values are not black and white, bb.
they are fluid and ever changing;
subject to experience and circumstance.

If you really believe that then stand by it.

Tell me there is nothing un-American about a mass murdering Neo-Nazi fascist state.

Openly stand by that opinion and clearly state you think there is nothing un-American about a totalitarian communist state starving 200 million Americans to death in the name of equity.

Go on....let's hear it. It's all fluid right???

murder? rape?
not up for discussion.

Why not? I thought "political values are not black and white" and "subject to experience and circumstance.".....well???

Can't have it both ways, not up for discussion sounds like you put those firmly in the black....not grey. Right???

 

[cleaver]

hmmmm?

i honestly think you've shifted to overdrive
in a school zone.

i cannot untangle for you
the furballed fishing line
you've constructed of my otherwise
rather simple postings to this point.

were we trying to find redeemable qualities in trump?
or composing an 'enemies list'?

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Trump's Policies are spot on. He is one of the Best Presidents in History because his policies actually work and are based on Capitalism. Obama was the worst, but Obama said nice things and was eloquent, but his policies didn't work and were based on Socialism. I don't care about Trump's harsh Tweets when he is defending himself. I care about the results of his policies.

 

[cowslinger64]

Trump's Policies are spot on. He is one of the Best Presidents in History because his policies actually work and are based on Capitalism. Obama was the worst, but Obama said nice things and was eloquent, but his policies didn't work and were based on Socialism. I don't care about Trump's harsh Tweets when he is defending himself. I care about the results of his policies.

All those choices to pay for huge tax cuts for the very rich and corporations..

You should go ahead and write a check for any social security or Medicare you may receive, that'll REALLY show your support..

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/3/11/18259789/trumps-2020-budget-proposal-cuts


Trump’s budget wants to cut the social safety net and build a wall
Trump’s budget proposal has a clear trade-off: The White House wants to gut the nation’s social safety net to give more funding to nation’s defense programs and allow for tax cuts primarily benefiting corporations and America’s wealthiest.

The White House is proposing cutting programs like Medicare and Social Security — that Trump campaigned on protecting — and increasing defense and border security spending.

If Trump’s budget were to be enacted, some of the biggest policy changes would include:

$1.5 trillion in cuts to Medicaid over 10 years, implementing work requirements as well as eliminating the Medicaid expansion under the Affordable Care Act. The budget instead adds $1.2 trillion for a “Market Based Health Care Grant” — block grant to states, instead of paying by need. It’s not clear whether that would be part of Medicaid.
An $845 billion cut to Medicare over 10 years, about a 10 percent cut, to be achieved through targeting wasteful spending and provider payments and lowering prescription drug costs.
$25 billion in cuts to Social Security over 10 years, including cuts to disability insurance.
A $220 billion cut to Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP), commonly referred to as food stamps, over 10 years, including mandatory work requirements. The program currently serves around 45 million people.
A $21 billion cut to Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, an already severely underfunded cash-assistance program for the nation’s poorest.
$207 billion in cuts to the student loan program, eliminating the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program and cutting subsidized student loans.
Increases defense spending by $34 billion next year, to a $750 billion budget baseline. That makes up a 5 percent boost to defense and military spending. To keep the defense budget within current caps, the White House uses a gimmick, putting $164 billion of this budget increase in an uncapped overseas contingency (OCO) fund.
$8.6 billion in funding for the southern border wall, separated between increased funding for the Department of Homeland Security and funding for military construction.
Overall, there is a 9 percent cut to non-defense programs, which would hit Section 8 housing vouchers, public housing programs, Head Start, the Women, Infants, and Children (WIC) nutrition program, and Low Income Home Energy Assistance Program, among others.
---------------


Holy fuck you people are idiots.

 

[cleaver]

Trump's Policies are spot on. He is one of the Best Presidents in History because his policies actually work and are based on Capitalism. Obama was the worst, but Obama said nice things and was eloquent, but his policies didn't work and were based on Socialism. I don't care about Trump's harsh Tweets when he is defending himself. I care about the results of his policies.

ok.
so we'll put the president's infallibility
on the board for discussion...

good one.
let me get the dry erase marker.

my bets are that this particular point won't sway too many
who think otherwise.

the obama/socialist thing is nice icing, though...

 

[BotanyBoy]

hmmmm?

Really simple....If you stand by this comment you just made.

political values are not black and white, bb.
they are fluid and ever changing;
subject to experience and circumstance.

Then stand by it and clearly state that there is nothing un-American about a mass murdering neo-Nazi fascist state.

Political values are grey, fluid and ever changing right???

Or admit there are in fact political values that are very much antithetical to those the USA was founded upon.

Can't have it both ways....either it's all grey and mass murdering Nazism is on the table or it's not all grey and fluid and there is some evil shit out there we shouldn't do. Which is it?

or composing an 'enemies list'?

No enemies list I'm just trying to get you to plant a flag in your position....or admit it's inconsistent.

Now is it all grey and nothing un-American about Nazism or do you think there in fact are political values out there that are anti-American??

 

[cleaver]

Really simple....If you stand by this comment you just made.





Then stand by it and clearly state that there is nothing un-American about a mass murdering neo-Nazi fascist state.

Political values are grey, fluid and ever changing right???

Or admit there are in fact political values that are very much antithetical to those the USA was founded upon.

Can't have it both ways....either it's all grey and mass murdering Nazism is on the table or it's not all grey and fluid and there is some evil shit out there we shouldn't do. Which is it?




No enemies list I'm just trying to get you to plant a flag in your position....or admit it's inconsistent.

Now is it all grey and nothing un-American about Nazism or do you think there in fact are political values out there that are anti-American??

have you ever seen a soviet era trial...?
even a hollywood dramatization will do.

where am i to sign the "confession" you've written for me?

i could suggest you re-read what i've written;
...even the last day's worth.
my words are always considered and chosen...
and if nuanced...

but that doesn't serve the narrative you've spun....
ahhhh...

certainly there's room enough for me in the last cattle car.
why waste the comissar's valuable time.

ok.
and herr trump?
he's made more redeemable by this puppet show how?

made stronger by the official politikal 'diminishment' of one more... deviant?

you know?
back in the day, ishmael played this style of the little irish trap
with a laser
not a rolling pin.

 

[BotanyBoy]

have you ever seen a soviet era trial...?
even a hollywood dramatization will do.

where am i to sign the "confession" you've written for me?

I'm not asking for a confession, threatening you, spinning any narrative or loading you onto a cattle car.

I'm asking you to stand by YOUR statement or admit that the reason you won't and keep deflecting away from doing so is because it might not be right.

IF you actually believe your words....

political values are not black and white, bb.
they are fluid and ever changing;
subject to experience and circumstance.

Then you have to admit that Nazism is on the table.

OR you can just admit it's not all grey and there are in fact anti-American political values out there.

ok.
and herr trump?

We're not even there yet......

But seeing as political values are so fluid and grey I don't understand why you have any problem with anything Trump is doing.

Everything is fluid and grey right???

RIGHT????

 

[cleaver]

I'm not asking for a confession, threatening you, spinning any narrative or loading you onto a cattle car.

I'm asking you to stand by YOUR statement or admit that the reason you won't and keep deflecting away from doing so is because it might not be right.

IF you actually believe your words....



Then you have to admit that Nazism is on the table.

OR you can just admit it's not all grey and there are in fact anti-American political views out there.

nazism was never on the table until you lobbed it in.
murder and rape - even if in service to a political end - the same.
they are indeed reprehensible.

you need a win here?
declare it.

it's all the rage.

 

[jomar]

...

you need a win here?
declare it.

it's all the rage.

LOL, deja vu.

Had fun, though.

 

[BotanyBoy]

nazism was never on the table

So then it's not all grey and fluid then now is it??

you need a win here?
declare it.

it's all the rage.

I'm not looking for a win, I'm looking for you to understand there are such things as anti or un-American political values.

That there are things that go in the black.