Advice on Loving Wives

[NoTalentHack]

This is semantic. It's true that the category includes these things but it's still extramarital sex.

I noticed you didn’t respond to anything else. You know, the stuff that gives context as to why it matters.

I will say that Lush, for all its faults, breaks it out into “cheating,” “loving wives,” and “cuckolding,” and gives lengthy descriptions of which stories are intended where. Each has their own vibe, which commenters tend to honor. But I think that ship has sailed here.

 

[madelinemasoch]

I noticed you didn’t respond to anything else. You know, the stuff that gives context as to why it matters.

I will say that Lush, for all its faults, breaks it out into “cheating,” “loving wives,” and “cuckolding,” and gives lengthy descriptions of which stories are intended where. Each has their own vibe, which commenters tend to honor. But I think that ship has sailed here.

Only reason why I didn't reply was because I didn't know about the history of the category's (d)evolution and I therefore don't disagree with what you had to say about it. Not trying to be an asshole.

 

[Gamblnluck]

I don't quite understand this. Are you saying that you reject the reality that many couples experience cheating yet still stay together, for different reasons? This happens all the time in the real world. Couples stay together because they still love each other, for the kids, for all kinds of reasons. Do you deny that this happens? Do you believe this is always unacceptable? I don't understand black and white thinking on this issue. Life is not black and white in all cases.

I'd have to go back and find the post that caused this. BUT yeah couples stay together for ALL those reasons. But is it like it was before? Is there an underlying distrust after one spouse cheated? Certainly everything is not black and white, but. I see comments on my stories as 'one and done'.

 

[Gamblnluck]

I don't quite understand this. Are you saying that you reject the reality that many couples experience cheating yet still stay together, for different reasons? This happens all the time in the real world. Couples stay together because they still love each other, for the kids, for all kinds of reasons. Do you deny that this happens? Do you believe this is always unacceptable? I don't understand black and white thinking on this issue. Life is not black and white in all cases.

For some reason I got cut off...

I'd have to go back and find the post that caused this. BUT yeah couples stay together for ALL those reasons. But is it like it was before? Is there an underlying distrust after one spouse cheated? Certainly everything is not black and white, but. I see comments on my stories as 'one and done'. "She cheated and that is all there was to it." But can YOU deny you'd feel nothing if you came home to find your spouse screwing another person? Perhaps claiming how his or her new lover was so much better than you. Don't tell me you would passively accept that. Well, maybe a few rare masochists would.
Now you might stay married for the kids until they were out of the home. But after? Ask yourself what you would do. Now you read that in a story, identify with the characters if it is well written. Does that make it a good story?
Same thing with watching a movie on television/netflix. You see the character going through whatever. It is a matter of acting/ writing that has you riveted or bored.

 

[madelinemasoch]

But can YOU deny you'd feel nothing if you came home to find your spouse screwing another person? Perhaps claiming how his or her new lover was so much better than you. Don't tell me you would passively accept that. Well, maybe a few rare masochists would.

I would encourage her.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I'm talking about the hate and vitriol from the readers toward not only the characters in the story but also the writer (especially the women writers) for displeasing the readers there. There is such a thing as open marriages, of men who like seeing their wives with other people, and any in the category that portrays that side are subjected to hateful, misogynistic ravings from male readers. That includes making the writer the character.

No, it is how it is written. Read the story, Cold Range. Told by a woman (I think) but totally from a woman's point of view. Great story.

I didn't ask you to buy a thing, so not sure why you'd say I lost you. None of my work here earns me a cent (we don't have pennies in this country; we have cents), and I don't ask people to buy my work. I never post links to any of my work that isn't here.

You lost me at 'for sale'. Yeah, I'd love to be paid a penny each time one of my stories is read..... but,,,

 

[NoTalentHack]

For some reason I got cut off...

I'd have to go back and find the post that caused this. BUT yeah couples stay together for ALL those reasons. But is it like it was before? Is there an underlying distrust after one spouse cheated? Certainly everything is not black and white, but. I see comments on my stories as 'one and done'. "She cheated and that is all there was to it." But can YOU deny you'd feel nothing if you came home to find your spouse screwing another person? Perhaps claiming how his or her new lover was so much better than you. Don't tell me you would passively accept that. Well, maybe a few rare masochists would.
Now you might stay married for the kids until they were out of the home. But after? Ask yourself what you would do. Now you read that in a story, identify with the characters if it is well written. Does that make it a good story?
Same thing with watching a movie on television/netflix. You see the character going through whatever. It is a matter of acting/ writing that has you riveted or bored.

To put in in another context:

Hit men in real life are usually kind of losers that live in shitty one-bedroom apartments and struggle to survive. While it might be interesting to see one or two stories about that, I think most people would prefer to watch John Wick, Nobody, RED, or… well, take your pick. The same can apply to real-life relationships vs. romcoms, etc. Hell, it even applies to erotica. “Normal” people and “normal” situations in erotica can be fun, but it’s not what most of the readers are there for.

 

[Gamblnluck]

W is loaded with dopey plots that never happen in real life, yet they are repeated over and over. You’ve described 4 of them nicely. The BTB writers use these unrealistic plots simply as a reason for the husband to get mad. It’s all so contrived and weird.

Then write a story that is logical. Figure a decent plot and go for it. I for one would love to read it. That is what I strive to produce ( and marginally succeed)

 

[Gamblnluck]

(we don't have pennies in this country; we have cents)

seriously? What are those copper/zinc things in your purse? My point was you mentioned you sold your stories on another site. I would love to do that and if I got a penny for every read like I do on Lit, I could go on my next cruise without my credit card.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I think I closed my Lush account years back. I haven't published through them for several years. I didn't get an email asking to publish again, but I imagine that went out to all the inactive writers. They were very difficult to please. Anything that smacked of even reluctance would get you "Please remove this" or "Please remove the forceful from before the word fucking, it sounds rape-ie." There were other issues, but I don't remember them now. I had several stories there for a while and then stopped submitting because of the remove this or remove that or take this part and move it to the end, "We don't have forwards," was one that really pissed me off.

I noticed you didn’t respond to anything else. You know, the stuff that gives context as to why it matters.

I will say that Lush, for all its faults, breaks it out into “cheating,” “loving wives,” and “cuckolding,” and gives lengthy descriptions of which stories are intended where. Each has their own vibe, which commenters tend to honor. But I think that ship has sailed here.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I make enough to buy a dress or new shoes now and then. Most of my actual pay from writing is for blogs, podcasts, and the like. They are one-cent pieces, just like they say they are.

seriously? What are those copper/zinc things in your purse? My point was you mentioned you sold your stories on another site. I would love to do that and if I got a penny for every read like I do on Lit, I could go on my next cruise without my credit card.

 

[SimonDoom]

For some reason I got cut off...

I'd have to go back and find the post that caused this. BUT yeah couples stay together for ALL those reasons. But is it like it was before? Is there an underlying distrust after one spouse cheated? Certainly everything is not black and white, but. I see comments on my stories as 'one and done'. "She cheated and that is all there was to it." But can YOU deny you'd feel nothing if you came home to find your spouse screwing another person? Perhaps claiming how his or her new lover was so much better than you. Don't tell me you would passively accept that. Well, maybe a few rare masochists would.
Now you might stay married for the kids until they were out of the home. But after? Ask yourself what you would do. Now you read that in a story, identify with the characters if it is well written. Does that make it a good story?
Same thing with watching a movie on television/netflix. You see the character going through whatever. It is a matter of acting/ writing that has you riveted or bored.

I would not accept that. I think cheating -- meaning, as I define it, dishonesty - is abhorrent. If my spouse did that, it would take a lot to restore the marriage, and it might not be fixable. But it might, and for many it could be fixed. I just don't understand people who cannot imagine that others think differently and 1-bomb a story because "This doesn't fit with my inflexible view of how things must be."

 

[MajorRewrite]

Then write a story that is logical. Figure a decent plot and go for it. I for one would love to read it. That is what I strive to produce ( and marginally succeed)

I have two LW stories. I can happily state that neither is a BTB cliché, and they were well received.

 

[AchtungNight]

What I don't understand about that is those things are staples of group sex, so going by the description, it seems like a redundant category.

I think they could change it to things like Hotwife, Stag, Vixen, cuckold and even add "gasp" cheating so at least there's a disclaimer.

Then again, most of the people who go there daily to wallow in being angry know what's in it and go there anyway so it probably makes no difference to anyone who's been here awhile.

Yeah, not all the stories in Group Sex are about people who are each other’s spouses.

Thx to those who have described the evolution of Loving Wives’ category themes.

 

[lc69hunter]

I see you wrote some essays. I do not read those categories but will take a look after I write this. But asking a half dozen or so of the 'haters' is not gonna get you a decent response if you aren't reading into reading the stories as well. You assumed the sex scene thing was paramount. It is not. I have written several stories in LW. My latest got trounced because I did not stay 'true' to the female character as described. I thought I did. I just tried to write her rebuttal. Not a justification or excuse, but an explanation. It fell flat. The comments were almost universally scathing.
My first story submitted to Lit was on LW and did very well. Cajuns stick together. I tried to simply tell a story with a little humor, and a little pathos. You aren't going to please all factions. You get readers who honestly would love to watch their wives screw other men. Some even go so far as participate and lick their wife afterwards. At least in their imaginations. Personally, I find the very idea repulsive. I generally do not read enough of the story to judge it.

Based upon your reply to @Lifestyle66 and your reply to me, I see you apparently have some obvious triggers (no issue there, I have them myself, even in the LW genre). I hate egregious, intentionally hurtful behavior upon a spouse, by either one. I hate cruelty. I hate intentional humiliation. I love loving and consensual, no matter what form the relationship takes. I have shared and been shared (almost my whole life). I have been the other man in a number of husband and wife relationships, both sharing and cuckolding. As for cheating, and this really pisses some readers off, I believe in the phrase, "no harm, no foul". I believe that women, far more so than men (and many men cannot even understand that concept) can compartmentalize different parts of their life, keeping an affair compartmentalized from the world and love of her husband and family.

So we do come from different worlds in that respect.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Sharing, Swapping, and more is what pisses them off too.

Well, the title says: "Extramarital fun, sharing swapping, and more."
Cheating isn't fun or consensual. The "loving" in "Loving Wives" is meant sincerely.

 

[MajorRewrite]

Well, the title says: "Extramarital fun, sharing swapping, and more."
Cheating isn't fun or consensual. The "loving" in "Loving Wives" is meant sincerely.

Cheating is absolutely “extramarital fun.” If it wasn’t, nobody would do it.

 

[madelinemasoch]

Well, the title says: "Extramarital fun, sharing swapping, and more."
Cheating isn't fun or consensual. The "loving" in "Loving Wives" is meant sincerely.

I always took it to be a play on words. Loving as in having sex with others. Loving as a verb.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Me, too. We could form a movement.

I always took it to be a play on words. Loving as in having sex with others. Loving as a verb.

 

[madelinemasoch]

I absolutely disagree. Cheating can involve all sorts of stuff, but it's usually not just about having fun or sex.

Ah, but that just makes it an even more interesting subject.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

You can write an LW story with a willing cuckold and they'll hate on him too, because they're not motivated by empathy. If it's somebody less slimy than they likely are in real life, they won't empathize with that character. It's an abhorrent attitude of hate-reading amongst many of them there.

Also, somebody not doing something considered bad (cheating) doesn't make them the good person. Harmless does not equal moral.

I kinda feel like you're intentionally trying to ignore common sense...

empathy | noun
em·pa·thy

1: the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another

Look, I'm not debating that there are some seriously screwed-up people commenting and posting in LW. But, as far as I could see so far, if you post a story where a woman's life is destroyed without any buildup or proper explanation, they get downvoted to hell. Like that story I mentioned in another thread with you, where a husband (who had been cheated off-screen before the story even started) basically tortured his wife. That story was shat on to no end before it got pulled. Why? Because the only person the readers could identify with was the FMC, who, as far as the story showed, didn't do anything wrong.

However, if you write a story from a male MC's perspective, where said male MC is being cuckolded, or cheated on, or wronged in any other way, the readers will empathize with him. They will put themselves into the MC's position. They will FEEL like it was happening to them and react to what happens to the MC as if it were happening to them.

It's not that complicated...

 

[NoTalentHack]

Ah, but that just makes it an even more interesting subject.

This reminded me, I wanted to circle back around to something you said in your earlier post.

This is semantic. It's true that the category includes these things but it's still extramarital sex.

It's not purely semantic. Swinging, sharing, and swapping imply consent between all parties. That's not always true; a number of "first time sharing" stories could easily go in the reluctance category, but for our purposes, everyone involved agrees that an extramarital liaison of some type will/can occur. Now, sometimes they go wrong, or the spouse isn't nearly as into as they expected, etc., but it starts off with that basis: this is ethical nonmonogamy. No one is lying or sneaking around. No one is being forced to open up the marriage by their partner.

That's not true with cheating. It's not true with a lot of cuckolding stories, either. Those two get lumped in with each other in the mind of the "average" LW reader for a reason. One of the most established setups in LW is "Honey, we need to talk," where the wife tells her husband, "I'm going out on a date, I still want to stay married to you, this is just a thing I need to do for myself, and I'm telling you, so it isn't cheating."

As silly as it is now, I think there might be a kernel of truth to that setup; you have to remember that a lot of the older readers and writers were young men and women during the swinging 70s, and even in the 90s goth scene, I heard a not-too-dissimilar claim from a sleazeball trying to convince someone's girlfriend to go home with him, i.e., "if you tell him, it's not cheating, it's just you opening up the relationship."

That's as may be; getting back to the original point, there's a delineation between the ethical and nonethical nonmonogamy LW stories, in terms of the way they're received by the commenters. There used to be a much wider gap, but the "no cucks brigade" has narrowed it, and it's partially because of what people want to read there. This is part of an exchange I had with LC68 (the whole thing is at https://forum.literotica.com/thread...thread-or-is-it.1593945/page-11#post-97454647, and the TL;DR is that divorce drama stories tend to get very high views and non-divorce-drama ones don't, which means that the "no cucks brigade" has more influence on their rating):

I don't have enough data to back it up, but the way ratings work in LW are really heavily weighted by the fact that there are a LOT of readers in there, and a lot of them vote. Having a following can buoy a story's score, as can good writing; once tends to follow the other, though.

Saddletramp is a good example of this; he writes almost exclusively BTB stories, but they're usually relatively mild ones (wife is shamed/finds the AP makes a bad husband, AP gets arrested or something similar), and they're typically wrapped in kind of men's adventure or mystery stories. Very plot-driven, as opposed to character driven. The female character's motives are usually evil to a femme fatale level, which sort of "justifies" the BTB, as opposed to the ones where she just cheats and wants to leave. Like I've said before, there's a sweet spot where you can make the BTBers satisfied while not repelling most of the non-BTB crowd.

But getting back to the thing with readers and votes, Kayfabe was advertised as "A cuck and bull bromance." I posted it in late January, and it got 22K views and a 3.88 score with 580 votes. It is, by far, my lowest viewed LW story as well as lowest rated. The Voice of Experience ("A veteran adulteress takes a first-timer under her wing."), posted in late July has gotten 22K views and 4.4/1.3K rating. Both of those clearly indicate some amount of unpunished cheating or cuckery in their descriptions, and the views are low as a result, but the cuck story got WAY lower views.

Compare that with Also-Ran ("Her x-boyfriend's death threw my life into chaos."), mid-August, 33K, 4.48/2.7K, and also one that I wrote as an extended "realistic" riff on a famous comic book love triangle; not exactly my best written work, since I tried to include a lot of the source material melodrama as an homage, but still more views and more ratings in a shorter span of time than TVoE, with a higher overall rating.

My takeaway is that things which are labeled as "cuck" or "hotwife" or "cheating" in some way, stories that are clearly communicated to the reader as "this is the story of a wife that sleeps with someone besides her husband and everything works out okay for her" don't get as many views or ratings BUT the very vocal contingent from the comments that hate cheating (and their silent brethren) have a lot more influence on the rating than in stories where it's not clearly indicated. That is, stories where there's a certain amount of ambiguity going in OR stories where the reader is told "this is going to be about relationship drama" do better because they get more eyes on them, and therefore a higher percentage of those eyes are folks that aren't looking to one bomb a particular type of story.

Looking at some of the stories on the front page of LW, that's borne out at least in terms of views: "I'll See You In The Morning," ("The fallout from just one night with a celebrity.") has 26K views and a rating of ~4/1.2K; the story ends with a reconciliation with the wife after she does her best to make amends, and a BTB for the celebrity. Awakening ("A boring event turns into much more for two couples.") posted the same day has 6.4K views and 3.4 a rating (can't determine rating count because of interface).

I could go on, but you get the idea: the ratings for the swinging/sharing/cuck stories in LW are depressed not so much because there are a lot of people that hate them, but because they just aren't as popular there AND the people that hate them really hate them. That contingent (probably) specifically goes into stories they don't like just to 1-bomb them, which is a behavior you don't see much elsewhere.

Sharing, swapping, and swinging stories can and do get higher than 4s in LW. Even cuck stories can if it's clear that the scenario is consensual, that it's something the husband wants and not just something the wife is forcing on him, i.e., that it's ethical nonmonogamy. Cheating stories where the cheater gets away with it usually don't, although they can. But in each of these cases, their views are typically less than half of what a divorce drama story gets when published on the same day.

And, not to be snarky, the sex-focused stories tend to be... eh, not that great when it comes to their writing. There are some exceptions, like Lifestyle66's, but that one's an odd man out for another reason: he's written a pair of very unlikable characters, especially the wife. He knows it, he does it on purpose, and more power to him. But it's neither the writing nor the swapping holding those stories' rating down, it's the characters. Like I said, you can find recent 4 and even 4.5 stories in all of the "extramarital fun" categories.

 

[MillieDynamite]

It actually isn't what you are saying. But I'm not going to argue with you either.

I kinda feel like you're intentionally trying to ignore common sense...



Look, I'm not debating that there are some seriously screwed-up people commenting and posting in LW. But, as far as I could see so far, if you post a story where a woman's life is destroyed without any buildup or proper explanation, they get downvoted to hell. Like that story I mentioned in another thread with you, where a husband (who had been cheated off-screen before the story even started) basically tortured his wife. That story was shat on to no end before it got pulled. Why? Because the only person the readers could identify with was the FMC, who, as far as the story showed, didn't do anything wrong.

However, if you write a story from a male MC's perspective, where said male MC is being cuckolded, or cheated on, or wronged in any other way, the readers will empathize with him. They will put themselves into the MC's position. They will FEEL like it was happening to them and react to what happens to the MC as if it were happening to them.

It's not that complicated...

 

[NoTalentHack]

I think I closed my Lush account years back. I haven't published through them for several years. I didn't get an email asking to publish again, but I imagine that went out to all the inactive writers. They were very difficult to please. Anything that smacked of even reluctance would get you "Please remove this" or "Please remove the forceful from before the word fucking, it sounds rape-ie." There were other issues, but I don't remember them now. I had several stories there for a while and then stopped submitting because of the remove this or remove that or take this part and move it to the end, "We don't have forwards," was one that really pissed me off.

Yeah. I tried to get Grace Restored posted over there. It… did not go well.

 

[lovecraft68]

I noticed you didn’t respond to anything else. You know, the stuff that gives context as to why it matters.

I will say that Lush, for all its faults, breaks it out into “cheating,” “loving wives,” and “cuckolding,” and gives lengthy descriptions of which stories are intended where. Each has their own vibe, which commenters tend to honor. But I think that ship has sailed here.

Lush also has a non consent rule and unlike here does not have a non consent category to send mixed messages. I think they have rough sex or something like that.

Not that lit would do it anyway, but its too late in the game to try and create a new category. My suggestions would be "Hot wife" and cheating, cuck, stag and other subsets would neatly fit into it.