Closet Desire
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I always suspected...
...there was something we had in common.
Well said.
...there was something we had in common.
Well said.
America's Image Abroad
- Thread starter lavender
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doctor_insanus
Splendid Isolation
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Re:
Amen to that. I just wonder who the next culture will be... looking back at the "dumb Americans?"
Weird Harold said:
Amen to that. I just wonder who the next culture will be... looking back at the "dumb Americans?"
Texan
'nuf said
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I am not "arrogant" enough to believe that American economics, military power, and culture (if there really is such a thing) will dominate the world for the next thousand years. However, those who advocate a "one world" political agenda have no idea how deep are those cultural divides and nationalist passions that separate countries.
I agree that there are many "ugly Americans" traveling the world. In Madird's Plaza Mayor, I wanted to slap the middleaged American woman sitting at the next table, who complained to the waiter that the bread was stale. However, this is not strictly an American problem. In airports all over South America, I want to tell the German, French and British backpackers to find a shower, deoderant and an iron. Try going to Disney World during July (winter break in Brazil). The place is covered with Brazilian teenagers who can be just as obnoxious as teenagers from any country. Arrogance and insensitivity to locals and local customs are individual rather than national traits.
On an individual level, few can match the intellectual arrogance of the Germans or the Swiss. I say this with respect because I work for a Swiss company and have many wonderful Swiss and German friends.
I enjoy differences of opinion more than most people do, and if this thread is going to take an openminded look at how different cultures view America and each other, I look forward to reading your views. However, if this thread is going to be just another chance for people to berate the United States, then I'll gently place the chip back on your shoulder and find another place to play.
I agree that there are many "ugly Americans" traveling the world. In Madird's Plaza Mayor, I wanted to slap the middleaged American woman sitting at the next table, who complained to the waiter that the bread was stale. However, this is not strictly an American problem. In airports all over South America, I want to tell the German, French and British backpackers to find a shower, deoderant and an iron. Try going to Disney World during July (winter break in Brazil). The place is covered with Brazilian teenagers who can be just as obnoxious as teenagers from any country. Arrogance and insensitivity to locals and local customs are individual rather than national traits.
On an individual level, few can match the intellectual arrogance of the Germans or the Swiss. I say this with respect because I work for a Swiss company and have many wonderful Swiss and German friends.
I enjoy differences of opinion more than most people do, and if this thread is going to take an openminded look at how different cultures view America and each other, I look forward to reading your views. However, if this thread is going to be just another chance for people to berate the United States, then I'll gently place the chip back on your shoulder and find another place to play.
riff
Jose Jones
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Quite frankly, I think I understand anti-americanism very well. I am an "anti-american american," and that is the best type of american there is.
There is a lot that sucks about the "United Consumerist States of America." We are becomeing a huge trailer-park.
Granted, there is a lot that is good about her too.
There is a lot that sucks about the "United Consumerist States of America." We are becomeing a huge trailer-park.
Granted, there is a lot that is good about her too.
No doubt. I think America is a pretty cool place at times but a pretty sleazy one also. Why do you get so much Anti-Americanism? Because you push your country as #1 so hard.
Look, I understand patriotism and what not but the fact of the matter is that the US has an awful lot of work to do to catch up to the rest of the developed nations in everything but wealth and military force.
You aren't a Failure but a B student. You need to work on that A.
Look, I understand patriotism and what not but the fact of the matter is that the US has an awful lot of work to do to catch up to the rest of the developed nations in everything but wealth and military force.
You aren't a Failure but a B student. You need to work on that A.
doctor_insanus
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riff said:
True. I never meant to say that I didn't love America. I still think it's the greatest country on earth.
I just think "the Great Experiment" needs some tweaking, or it's going to fail.
doctor_insanus
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*scratches crotch*
'Cause I'm an American, gawd dangit!
*spits*
'Cause I'm an American, gawd dangit!
*spits*
Texan
'nuf said
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EvilBollWeevil said:
I'm sincerely scratching my head trying to figure out what you mean by "everything". Surely you don't mean athletics, technology, innovation, education, or standard of living? Maybe you mean personal liberty, religious freedom, indivudual responsibility, or opportunity for personal success? Could you mean environmental protection, food production, infrastructure, or natural beauty? I'm still wondering exactly where the US needs to do all this work to catch up with the "rest of the developed nations".
(should be read with only a slight amount of sarcasm)
p_p_man
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British Empire
I can only agree that the British were arrogant during the time of the British Empire and to my personal shame many of my countrymen, who still live in the glory days of the past, remain arrogant today. No country can escape the fact that among its ranks it has people with this type of attitude.
There is one major difference however between the British being arrogant and the Americans. For all the hatred that was heaped on our heads in the past we actually did have an Empire to run. The lives of millions of people throughout the world relied on decisions that were made in offices and buildings back in London. From the Old Empire (Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and India) to the new no person living within the boundaries of the Empire was unaffected.
It was not so much arrogance that the citizens of the United Kingdom felt but the absolute conviction that we were head of the greatest empire since the Romans. Today of course, with the benefit of hindsight we call it arrogance, but the word would never have been used to describe the British during our heyday. It was just the way we were. We were in charge and that was that. And of course being in charge 100 years ago meant dealing with every tiny aspect of life in the colonies. From ensuring that the Indian infrastructure and economy was solid to how much a dirt farmer in Jamaica would be paid for his banana crop. Nothing was untouched. From schools to hospitals; from housing to places of employment.
And all this was carried out, not during a period of peace and harmony but whilst we were fighting wars in practically every corner of the world. Some major some minor.
And all this also was being conducted during an age when there was no such thing as instant communication between countries. Our colonial administrators had to make decisions on the ground which reflected the overall policy of the British Government. They couldn't ask for help from back home. This was only possible because the system itself was tightly controlled by the same rule book which was used from Hong Kong to Belize.
Nowadays those Britons who still dream of past glories are in the main laughed at by the rest of us. They are called "Little (or Middle) Englanders". They are derided for not being able to see that the UK is no longer an Island (something which they are always expounding) and they are shouted down for their mainly xenophobic viewpoint. They are a minority, but sometimes when you read our press, they appear to have a bigger voice than they really have.
Now I would happily call those people arrogant but at least they have some historical fact on which to base their arrogance.
Whereas America never had the advantage/disadvantage of actually controlling a global empire in quite the same way.
What it comes down to, however, on both side of the Atlantic are people I feel like grabbing by the scruff of the neck forcing them to look over the tops of the walls they have built around themselves and telling them "Look, look out there, that's the world as it is today. You either become part of it and help influence it or you go back below the wall, join the chattering classes and talk about how great you think our respective countries are".
After all it's easy to win when you're only winning a debate.
Weird Harold said:
I can only agree that the British were arrogant during the time of the British Empire and to my personal shame many of my countrymen, who still live in the glory days of the past, remain arrogant today. No country can escape the fact that among its ranks it has people with this type of attitude.
There is one major difference however between the British being arrogant and the Americans. For all the hatred that was heaped on our heads in the past we actually did have an Empire to run. The lives of millions of people throughout the world relied on decisions that were made in offices and buildings back in London. From the Old Empire (Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and India) to the new no person living within the boundaries of the Empire was unaffected.
It was not so much arrogance that the citizens of the United Kingdom felt but the absolute conviction that we were head of the greatest empire since the Romans. Today of course, with the benefit of hindsight we call it arrogance, but the word would never have been used to describe the British during our heyday. It was just the way we were. We were in charge and that was that. And of course being in charge 100 years ago meant dealing with every tiny aspect of life in the colonies. From ensuring that the Indian infrastructure and economy was solid to how much a dirt farmer in Jamaica would be paid for his banana crop. Nothing was untouched. From schools to hospitals; from housing to places of employment.
And all this was carried out, not during a period of peace and harmony but whilst we were fighting wars in practically every corner of the world. Some major some minor.
And all this also was being conducted during an age when there was no such thing as instant communication between countries. Our colonial administrators had to make decisions on the ground which reflected the overall policy of the British Government. They couldn't ask for help from back home. This was only possible because the system itself was tightly controlled by the same rule book which was used from Hong Kong to Belize.
Nowadays those Britons who still dream of past glories are in the main laughed at by the rest of us. They are called "Little (or Middle) Englanders". They are derided for not being able to see that the UK is no longer an Island (something which they are always expounding) and they are shouted down for their mainly xenophobic viewpoint. They are a minority, but sometimes when you read our press, they appear to have a bigger voice than they really have.
Now I would happily call those people arrogant but at least they have some historical fact on which to base their arrogance.
Whereas America never had the advantage/disadvantage of actually controlling a global empire in quite the same way.
What it comes down to, however, on both side of the Atlantic are people I feel like grabbing by the scruff of the neck forcing them to look over the tops of the walls they have built around themselves and telling them "Look, look out there, that's the world as it is today. You either become part of it and help influence it or you go back below the wall, join the chattering classes and talk about how great you think our respective countries are".
After all it's easy to win when you're only winning a debate.
Closet Desire
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Who's "bashing" America?
I think this has been a pretty well-mannered thread and I will point out that it began as an enquiry about America's Image Abroad so you shouldn't be too surprised to get criticisms about the US from those are feeling a bit of frustration and perplexion about where things are going. I think those who have written a point of view from abroad as well as a number of those living in the US have made considered remarks (and being a virgin on here doesn't make you an intellectual virgin).
I do want to comment about the writer who wanted to tell the British backpackers to find a shower, deodorant, and iron. This is one of the cultural divides I was trying to press home. Americans are fastidious to a fault. It's the only country I've seen so far that has aisle upon aisle of products designed to mask the human scent. Douche, enemas, deodorants, feminine sprays, etc. etc. Americans wrinkle their noses at the slightest hint of perspiration, but not everybody else finds it a disease. Even I, the American, was stunned to find enemas at the checkout stand where I would have expected to find Butterfinger candy bars (Wal Mart...Galveston). Stop for just a moment and think about what these backpackers are doing. Usually they are young, university aged students, and what they are doing is something I never saw Americans doing when I grew up. They are travelling around the world, through different cultures, different languages, and different political systems. I frequently see and travel with them in France as they load up on the trains with their possessions in backpacks. One can see them in packs in the gardens beneath the Eiffel Tower. They are laughing, talking, being polite and having a great time. They are exuberant. I feel resentful that I didn't get the same experience at that age. In order to manage these trips they have to be frugal with every penny they have. They travel on a Europass, stay in flop houses (also known as youth hotels) that may not even have showers, eat on the street, and spend their days walking. Yep, they get dirty, they get sweaty, and they are having the time of their lives. It will change them forever.
An earlier writer mentioned that we all need enemies (no not enemas!). I think maybe we don't need enemies so much as we need fences. That old cliche about good fences make good neighbors. Maybe there is something to it. We all want a cultural or national identity and there isn't anything wrong with that but consider this. You live in the middle of nowhere with a number of other people. Joe raises wheat. Jan raises pigs. Mark has an orchard. Frank has dairy cows and chickens. Karen is a carpenter and blacksmith. They all live beside one another and go about their business. Karen keeps the fences mended and repairs the buildings in exchange for food. Frank trades milk, butter, and eggs for wheat to make bread. He also has a well from which he supplies everyone with fresh water. You get the idea. The fences are good because they keep the pigs and cattle from straying and everybody knows who owns what. One day Mark notices that some of his trees are looking blighted and closer examination shows that pig urine from Jan's farm is running into the soil and contaminating it. Frank gets concerned and checks his water to find that it too smells of ammonia.
Now...what do you do? You can argue that it's all Jan's problem because her pigs are contaminating the soil. Or, you can recognise that they all depend on one another and that Jan's problems can ruin all of them. Or they can work together, realising that fences don't solve everything, and together work out a solution. Karen is able to rig a means of collecting and storing the urine and discovers that it can be used as fertiliser on the wheat fields at the beginning of growing season.
They work together to solve the problem. The fences are still there. Jan is still raises pigs. Frank is still a dairy farmer. Mark still has orchard. And they all continue to enjoy the benefits of sharing their resources and products.
World cooperation isn't about taking away national identity. From Algeria to Zimbawe all people are fiercely proud of who they are and will not give it up for anything. World cooperation is about recognising first that problems exist, second that each of contributes to the problems in some way, and third that drawing on global resources and talents we can overcome many of these problems.
[Edited by Closet Desire on 06-03-2001 at 04:16 AM]
I think this has been a pretty well-mannered thread and I will point out that it began as an enquiry about America's Image Abroad so you shouldn't be too surprised to get criticisms about the US from those are feeling a bit of frustration and perplexion about where things are going. I think those who have written a point of view from abroad as well as a number of those living in the US have made considered remarks (and being a virgin on here doesn't make you an intellectual virgin).
I do want to comment about the writer who wanted to tell the British backpackers to find a shower, deodorant, and iron. This is one of the cultural divides I was trying to press home. Americans are fastidious to a fault. It's the only country I've seen so far that has aisle upon aisle of products designed to mask the human scent. Douche, enemas, deodorants, feminine sprays, etc. etc. Americans wrinkle their noses at the slightest hint of perspiration, but not everybody else finds it a disease. Even I, the American, was stunned to find enemas at the checkout stand where I would have expected to find Butterfinger candy bars (Wal Mart...Galveston). Stop for just a moment and think about what these backpackers are doing. Usually they are young, university aged students, and what they are doing is something I never saw Americans doing when I grew up. They are travelling around the world, through different cultures, different languages, and different political systems. I frequently see and travel with them in France as they load up on the trains with their possessions in backpacks. One can see them in packs in the gardens beneath the Eiffel Tower. They are laughing, talking, being polite and having a great time. They are exuberant. I feel resentful that I didn't get the same experience at that age. In order to manage these trips they have to be frugal with every penny they have. They travel on a Europass, stay in flop houses (also known as youth hotels) that may not even have showers, eat on the street, and spend their days walking. Yep, they get dirty, they get sweaty, and they are having the time of their lives. It will change them forever.
An earlier writer mentioned that we all need enemies (no not enemas!). I think maybe we don't need enemies so much as we need fences. That old cliche about good fences make good neighbors. Maybe there is something to it. We all want a cultural or national identity and there isn't anything wrong with that but consider this. You live in the middle of nowhere with a number of other people. Joe raises wheat. Jan raises pigs. Mark has an orchard. Frank has dairy cows and chickens. Karen is a carpenter and blacksmith. They all live beside one another and go about their business. Karen keeps the fences mended and repairs the buildings in exchange for food. Frank trades milk, butter, and eggs for wheat to make bread. He also has a well from which he supplies everyone with fresh water. You get the idea. The fences are good because they keep the pigs and cattle from straying and everybody knows who owns what. One day Mark notices that some of his trees are looking blighted and closer examination shows that pig urine from Jan's farm is running into the soil and contaminating it. Frank gets concerned and checks his water to find that it too smells of ammonia.
Now...what do you do? You can argue that it's all Jan's problem because her pigs are contaminating the soil. Or, you can recognise that they all depend on one another and that Jan's problems can ruin all of them. Or they can work together, realising that fences don't solve everything, and together work out a solution. Karen is able to rig a means of collecting and storing the urine and discovers that it can be used as fertiliser on the wheat fields at the beginning of growing season.
They work together to solve the problem. The fences are still there. Jan is still raises pigs. Frank is still a dairy farmer. Mark still has orchard. And they all continue to enjoy the benefits of sharing their resources and products.
World cooperation isn't about taking away national identity. From Algeria to Zimbawe all people are fiercely proud of who they are and will not give it up for anything. World cooperation is about recognising first that problems exist, second that each of contributes to the problems in some way, and third that drawing on global resources and talents we can overcome many of these problems.
[Edited by Closet Desire on 06-03-2001 at 04:16 AM]
riff
Jose Jones
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Texan said:
Leave to a Texan to ask such a ridiculous question.
Don't know about you, but most trailer parks are full of run-down 16x80 pieces of shit that people call homes.
And the trailers themselves- ugh. What does this type of architecture say about a society?
As for the people who live in them- I will withhold comment- except to say that many of them are Texans. (Texas is second to North Carolina in the number of "mobile homes" sold)
As for Texas, well, I do not think highly of the National Laboratory of Bad Government.
riff
Jose Jones
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A POST SCRIPT
America needs to get over herself. I am an American and I despise the narcisism of my country. You would think we shit gold. In so many ways Americans are a juvenile, stuck-on-themselves, arrogant, scared-spoiled, nation of "cheap-consumer-goods-pacified" morons.
I think we have a wonderful system of government. I think, however, that as much as our country can bring out the best in people, it can bring out the worst in people too. Americans need to look at the latter part of my last statement.
Perhaps it is not solely an American issue so much as a moral human issue, but with enough cash- I could buy your ass.
America needs to get over herself. I am an American and I despise the narcisism of my country. You would think we shit gold. In so many ways Americans are a juvenile, stuck-on-themselves, arrogant, scared-spoiled, nation of "cheap-consumer-goods-pacified" morons.
I think we have a wonderful system of government. I think, however, that as much as our country can bring out the best in people, it can bring out the worst in people too. Americans need to look at the latter part of my last statement.
Perhaps it is not solely an American issue so much as a moral human issue, but with enough cash- I could buy your ass.
Andra_Jenny
Mentally Divergent
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Texan: GOOD JOB!
The biggest problem America faces today:
IS THAT WE DID NOT LISTEN TO PATTON!
We should have just run the board, established a PAX AMERICANA and we would have a bit of fucking peace and our enemies would really have a good reason to fear us.
QUESTION for the anglish:
WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AMERICA AND EVERY OTHER WORLD POWER THAT HAS EVER ACHIEVED DOMINION (except maybe Venice way back when)?
We did not conquer and occupy our enemies on a permanent basis. Lets' face it children the US has always been isolationist because we are so abohored with European operating principles. Yes we were drug into the wars because you had to drag America into wars but now you have us so conditioned as to beleive that we are neccessary to all your dirty little affairs because you have grown so pitifully weak and are still so arrogant. We look out at the rest of the world and see a fucking cesspool that keeps pointing a finger at us. Screw that!
Look at the stats you use to beat up on the U.S.
You are barbarians; you have the DEATH PENALTY!
Hey, no one imposed it, its called freedom. People of each state are free to vote about things and decide. Its a beautiful concept. If you do not like the death penalty you are free to do many things:
move,
argue against it,
protest,
organize voting blocks,
and many other things that you
CANNOT DO IN ALL THOSE BULLSHIT COUNTRIES WHO TRY TO BEAT UP ON US.
WE RULE!
And we rule by example, unlike all your enlightened "World Community" members.
The strength of truth.
The strength of freedom.
The beauty of the American people.
(my world view is nasty, because the rennaisance man opened my eyes to the lies of the braying liberal lackies of the socialist party who would gently ease us into Orwell's Brave New World. I am at war. Unlike you, I actually have people who will follow where I lead!)
The biggest problem America faces today:
IS THAT WE DID NOT LISTEN TO PATTON!
We should have just run the board, established a PAX AMERICANA and we would have a bit of fucking peace and our enemies would really have a good reason to fear us.
QUESTION for the anglish:
WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AMERICA AND EVERY OTHER WORLD POWER THAT HAS EVER ACHIEVED DOMINION (except maybe Venice way back when)?
We did not conquer and occupy our enemies on a permanent basis. Lets' face it children the US has always been isolationist because we are so abohored with European operating principles. Yes we were drug into the wars because you had to drag America into wars but now you have us so conditioned as to beleive that we are neccessary to all your dirty little affairs because you have grown so pitifully weak and are still so arrogant. We look out at the rest of the world and see a fucking cesspool that keeps pointing a finger at us. Screw that!
Look at the stats you use to beat up on the U.S.
You are barbarians; you have the DEATH PENALTY!
Hey, no one imposed it, its called freedom. People of each state are free to vote about things and decide. Its a beautiful concept. If you do not like the death penalty you are free to do many things:
move,
argue against it,
protest,
organize voting blocks,
and many other things that you
CANNOT DO IN ALL THOSE BULLSHIT COUNTRIES WHO TRY TO BEAT UP ON US.
WE RULE!
And we rule by example, unlike all your enlightened "World Community" members.
The strength of truth.
The strength of freedom.
The beauty of the American people.
(my world view is nasty, because the rennaisance man opened my eyes to the lies of the braying liberal lackies of the socialist party who would gently ease us into Orwell's Brave New World. I am at war. Unlike you, I actually have people who will follow where I lead!)
p_p_man
The 'Euro' European
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2001
- Posts
- 24,253
Good God!
Good God! May The Saints Preserve Us!
Andra_Jenny said:Texan: GOOD JOB!
The biggest problem America faces today:
IS THAT WE DID NOT LISTEN TO PATTON!
We should have just run the board, established a PAX AMERICANA and we would have a bit of fucking peace and our enemies would really have a good reason to fear us.
QUESTION for the anglish:
WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AMERICA AND EVERY OTHER WORLD POWER THAT HAS EVER ACHIEVED DOMINION (except maybe Venice way back when)?
We did not conquer and occupy our enemies on a permanent basis. Lets' face it children the US has always been isolationist because we are so abohored with European operating principles. Yes we were drug into the wars because you had to drag America into wars but now you have us so conditioned as to beleive that we are neccessary to all your dirty little affairs because you have grown so pitifully weak and are still so arrogant. We look out at the rest of the world and see a fucking cesspool that keeps pointing a finger at us. Screw that!
Look at the stats you use to beat up on the U.S.
You are barbarians; you have the DEATH PENALTY!
Hey, no one imposed it, its called freedom. People of each state are free to vote about things and decide. Its a beautiful concept. If you do not like the death penalty you are free to do many things:
move,
argue against it,
protest,
organize voting blocks,
and many other things that you
CANNOT DO IN ALL THOSE BULLSHIT COUNTRIES WHO TRY TO BEAT UP ON US.
WE RULE!
And we rule by example, unlike all your enlightened "World Community" members.
The strength of truth.
The strength of freedom.
The beauty of the American people.
(my world view is nasty, because the rennaisance man opened my eyes to the lies of the braying liberal lackies of the socialist party who would gently ease us into Orwell's Brave New World. I am at war. Unlike you, I actually have people who will follow where I lead!)
Good God! May The Saints Preserve Us!
Andra_Jenny
Mentally Divergent
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2000
- Posts
- 2,865
Put your faith in the Gods and Buddhas,
But do not rely upon them
Shinman Musashi Miyamoto
But do not rely upon them
Shinman Musashi Miyamoto
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