Andra_Jenny
Mentally Divergent
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2000
- Posts
- 2,865
lever!
America's Image Abroad
- Thread starter lavender
- Start date
Closet Desire
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2000
- Posts
- 1,177
Andra Jenny...
It is truly sad, but you haven't got a clue.
It is truly sad, but you haven't got a clue.
Andra_Jenny said:
Oh Andra, you crazy fucker. First and foremost. You did indeed conquer and occupy your enemies on a permanent basis. Hear of the folks living here before Americans? or of the Philipines? or of Texas?
Also most developed nations have the freedoms you think are so unique to the US. Canada, Sweden, Italy, France, England, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, Japan and many others get to do those things too. Plus we don't let our government kill whoever they deem worthy of death. You see Andra my problem is that the US chose the death penalty, the Vietnam war and Britney Spears.
Drug into wars? I'm not sure what wars you think you were dragged into. WW2? You guys joined that halfway in, only after someone attacked you. My country joined at the beginning, with out having been attacked. And the number of wars you guys have started this century is ridiculous.
Cesspool? You really see a cesspool when you look at switzerland? Why is that? The people of many different ethnicities working so well together? or is it the lack of shooting deaths? I know its the fact that poor folk can go to the hospital. Friggin' socialist commie rat fuckers.
Oliver Clozoff
SirRealism
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2000
- Posts
- 7,468
This thread had a lot of potential but it really degenerated into a lot of knee-jerk reactions from both the Americans and the globalists. I find it notable that in our global politically-correct culture that it's considered boorish and unenlightened to make sweeping generalizations about racial groups (e.g. "black people are like ____..." but it's still permissible to utter stereotypes about nationalities (e.g. Americans are egotistical, arrogant, and self-absorbed, etc.).
ClosetDesire, your points are correct and well-reasoned, and you're obviously an educated and thoughtful person so you should be able to see that the Americans on this thread seem unfairly singled-out. You rightly point out the value of recognizing our common humanity, but you must recognize that the Americans are the only ones "on trial" here. Who else are you lecturing to? The more you assert to Americans "You NEED us!", the more apt Americans are to recoil at the idea and retreat into the idea that even if we need you, you're making us want you less and less.
What happens next is the American nationalists like Andra Jenny retreat more and more into their nationalist positions, which of course just reinforces the globalists' idea that Americans really ARE arrogant and self-absorbed. Predictable expressions of exasperated disbelief promptly follow from the globalists, and the cycle continues on and on...
It's just so damned predictable and tired. You're obviously right CD, but your approach is wrong. It should be obvious what the results will be of chastising the citizens of a country that has gone from being a colonial backwater at the far corner of the world to the world's lone superpower in the space of than 250 years. America has done just fine to this point, being isolationist and building a world economic empire (rather than a political one) by turns. America has obviously been doing something right. If you want to convince us to make a sea-change in how we view the rest of the world you're gonna have to damn well tell us what's in it for US because frankly we have a lot more to lose.
Maybe it IS in all of our best interests to get fully on board to this global community idea and eschew a lot of our modern conveniences, but Americans definitely aren't sold on the idea yet. Don't forget the incredible toil and sacrifice this nation has made to achieve what we have today. Can you blame us for our sense of entitlement? Should we be so quick to wager our prosperity? As industrious and sensible as we have proven to be, it will obviously take a lot more to convince us of all this than just the easy rhetoric of all peoples' common humanity and the need for international cooperation.
We are Americans after all. Show us the money.
If, however, we ever are fully convinced of this idea, it will truly be revolutionary because America has shown time and again that it can achieve anything its people unite behind.
The last thing I want to address is the obviously sizable contingent of anti-American Americans on this board, wringing their hands in guilt and self-loathing over the insensitivity of their country. I can't and won't dispute the existence of "ugly Americans". Behind every stereotype is a core of truth (otherwise how could the stereotype come into being?), and while I'm embarrassed of such people when they represent our country poorly abroad and will apologize for them, I'm convinced that were the roles reversed, any other country occupying the status of America would also be forced to suffer such boors. It's a part of the human condition rather than some sort of uniquely American cultural sickness. Yes, we Americans are trying to remake the world in our own image, but so is the rest of the world.
We've just been a bit better at it so far.
[Edited by Oliver Clozoff on 06-03-2001 at 09:16 AM]
ClosetDesire, your points are correct and well-reasoned, and you're obviously an educated and thoughtful person so you should be able to see that the Americans on this thread seem unfairly singled-out. You rightly point out the value of recognizing our common humanity, but you must recognize that the Americans are the only ones "on trial" here. Who else are you lecturing to? The more you assert to Americans "You NEED us!", the more apt Americans are to recoil at the idea and retreat into the idea that even if we need you, you're making us want you less and less.
What happens next is the American nationalists like Andra Jenny retreat more and more into their nationalist positions, which of course just reinforces the globalists' idea that Americans really ARE arrogant and self-absorbed. Predictable expressions of exasperated disbelief promptly follow from the globalists, and the cycle continues on and on...
It's just so damned predictable and tired. You're obviously right CD, but your approach is wrong. It should be obvious what the results will be of chastising the citizens of a country that has gone from being a colonial backwater at the far corner of the world to the world's lone superpower in the space of than 250 years. America has done just fine to this point, being isolationist and building a world economic empire (rather than a political one) by turns. America has obviously been doing something right. If you want to convince us to make a sea-change in how we view the rest of the world you're gonna have to damn well tell us what's in it for US because frankly we have a lot more to lose.
Maybe it IS in all of our best interests to get fully on board to this global community idea and eschew a lot of our modern conveniences, but Americans definitely aren't sold on the idea yet. Don't forget the incredible toil and sacrifice this nation has made to achieve what we have today. Can you blame us for our sense of entitlement? Should we be so quick to wager our prosperity? As industrious and sensible as we have proven to be, it will obviously take a lot more to convince us of all this than just the easy rhetoric of all peoples' common humanity and the need for international cooperation.
We are Americans after all. Show us the money.
If, however, we ever are fully convinced of this idea, it will truly be revolutionary because America has shown time and again that it can achieve anything its people unite behind.
The last thing I want to address is the obviously sizable contingent of anti-American Americans on this board, wringing their hands in guilt and self-loathing over the insensitivity of their country. I can't and won't dispute the existence of "ugly Americans". Behind every stereotype is a core of truth (otherwise how could the stereotype come into being?), and while I'm embarrassed of such people when they represent our country poorly abroad and will apologize for them, I'm convinced that were the roles reversed, any other country occupying the status of America would also be forced to suffer such boors. It's a part of the human condition rather than some sort of uniquely American cultural sickness. Yes, we Americans are trying to remake the world in our own image, but so is the rest of the world.
We've just been a bit better at it so far.
[Edited by Oliver Clozoff on 06-03-2001 at 09:16 AM]
riff
Jose Jones
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2000
- Posts
- 10,348
i repeat
A POST SCRIPT
America needs to get over herself. I am an American and I despise the narcisism of my country. You would think we shit gold. In so
many ways Americans are a juvenile, stuck-on-themselves, arrogant, scared-spoiled, nation of "cheap-consumer-goods-pacified"
morons.
I think we have a wonderful system of government. I think, however, that as much as our country can bring out the best in people, it can
bring out the worst in people too. Americans need to look at the latter part of my last statement.
Perhaps it is not solely an American issue so much as a moral human issue, but with enough cash- I could buy your ass.
A POST SCRIPT
America needs to get over herself. I am an American and I despise the narcisism of my country. You would think we shit gold. In so
many ways Americans are a juvenile, stuck-on-themselves, arrogant, scared-spoiled, nation of "cheap-consumer-goods-pacified"
morons.
I think we have a wonderful system of government. I think, however, that as much as our country can bring out the best in people, it can
bring out the worst in people too. Americans need to look at the latter part of my last statement.
Perhaps it is not solely an American issue so much as a moral human issue, but with enough cash- I could buy your ass.
Oliver Clozoff
SirRealism
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2000
- Posts
- 7,468
Hey, Cheyenne. Good to see you still 'round these here parts.
Oh, and riff, it's not America that brings out the worst in people. It's America's success.
Oh, and riff, it's not America that brings out the worst in people. It's America's success.
Oliver like many on this board but sadly not all seems like smart guy but is missing the point. The global community is only going to get stronger. The world is not begging America to join in and save us from ourselves. It isn't even saying stop dominating us and work with us. What is in it for you is being a leader rather than playing catch up. You can get onboard now and steer it the way you want it to go... or you can get more isolated and xenophobic and end up like china used to be or worse upset the community to the extent that you have to be reigned in.
I understand the poster who is scared of losing soverignty to a non elected UN. The global decision making is in its infancy but take to opportinity to make it better rather than stay in holier than thou mode. It is the pattern of history that as demcracy gets bigger you lose more dierct control over decision. In early greek democracys individuals voted on very issue. Rome had senates. Hell you dont even directly elect your president. The Electoral college does. You certainly only vote for one congressmen but his vote in congress can't do anything on its own. Texas or wherever has given up some soveriegnty to the other states. Weel gess what, your representatives in the UN (who you could make directly elected if that bothered you) is only one voice in a larger body. Not every decision of congress is right for Texas but the advantages of being part of the Union are worth that sacrifice. Texas cannot pick and choose what it likes and doesn't and the US cannt afford to do the same in the international community.
Damn this is a longer post than I had wanted.. I guess some of the responses on this board scare me a little.
I understand the poster who is scared of losing soverignty to a non elected UN. The global decision making is in its infancy but take to opportinity to make it better rather than stay in holier than thou mode. It is the pattern of history that as demcracy gets bigger you lose more dierct control over decision. In early greek democracys individuals voted on very issue. Rome had senates. Hell you dont even directly elect your president. The Electoral college does. You certainly only vote for one congressmen but his vote in congress can't do anything on its own. Texas or wherever has given up some soveriegnty to the other states. Weel gess what, your representatives in the UN (who you could make directly elected if that bothered you) is only one voice in a larger body. Not every decision of congress is right for Texas but the advantages of being part of the Union are worth that sacrifice. Texas cannot pick and choose what it likes and doesn't and the US cannt afford to do the same in the international community.
Damn this is a longer post than I had wanted.. I guess some of the responses on this board scare me a little.
Texan
'nuf said
- Joined
- May 31, 2001
- Posts
- 2,146
Well said Oliver
Your post was an enjoyable read, clearly expressed and without the venom that often repels people with different views.
Closet Desire, I also enjoyed your post. Your point about our international interdependence is well taken. The story about "Jan, Mark, Frank and Karen" does a good job of expressing the point. Of course, like all metaphors, it breaks down when you apply it to the real world, but it makes the point.
Metaphors are like statistics; you can use them to say anything you want. It's like the statistic: "In the 2000 Olympic games in Sydney, the Bahamas won more medals, per capita, than any other country." The fact that the Bahamas only received one medal doesn't make the statistic untrue.
CD, I found your reply to my comment about "backpackers, showers and deodorant" to be fascinating. I find strong body odor and bad breath to be extremely offensive odors (even worse than cigarette smoke in a confined space). I don't think it is only Americans that find it offensive. Throughout the Americas and in Japan, personal hygiene is considered very important. In Brazil, even factory workers carry a toothbrush in their pocket to brush their teeth after lunch. As the old expression goes, "your freedom ends where my nose begins". (Taken out of context, but it works.) By the way, I often sit at Internet cafes in Mexico and Peru with backpackers and thoroughly enjoy the conversations. I just sit upwind.
You can find people in Texas who have never ventured across the county line and believe that people from Iowa are "foreigners". In the same way, you can find people in Appenzel, Switzerland (where women still aren't allowed to vote) who believe Zurich should really be a part of Germany. Attitudes are individual. Don't blame a nation for the attitudes of a few of its individuals.
Your post was an enjoyable read, clearly expressed and without the venom that often repels people with different views.
Closet Desire, I also enjoyed your post. Your point about our international interdependence is well taken. The story about "Jan, Mark, Frank and Karen" does a good job of expressing the point. Of course, like all metaphors, it breaks down when you apply it to the real world, but it makes the point.
Metaphors are like statistics; you can use them to say anything you want. It's like the statistic: "In the 2000 Olympic games in Sydney, the Bahamas won more medals, per capita, than any other country." The fact that the Bahamas only received one medal doesn't make the statistic untrue.
CD, I found your reply to my comment about "backpackers, showers and deodorant" to be fascinating. I find strong body odor and bad breath to be extremely offensive odors (even worse than cigarette smoke in a confined space). I don't think it is only Americans that find it offensive. Throughout the Americas and in Japan, personal hygiene is considered very important. In Brazil, even factory workers carry a toothbrush in their pocket to brush their teeth after lunch. As the old expression goes, "your freedom ends where my nose begins". (Taken out of context, but it works.) By the way, I often sit at Internet cafes in Mexico and Peru with backpackers and thoroughly enjoy the conversations. I just sit upwind.
You can find people in Texas who have never ventured across the county line and believe that people from Iowa are "foreigners". In the same way, you can find people in Appenzel, Switzerland (where women still aren't allowed to vote) who believe Zurich should really be a part of Germany. Attitudes are individual. Don't blame a nation for the attitudes of a few of its individuals.
Closet Desire
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2000
- Posts
- 1,177
Now it gets...
...really interesting.
I sit upwind from backpackers too! Well, if it's been hot anyway. Point is it's an acceptance, a tolerance, and a recognition of the differences.
I agree too about the examples I gave being simplistic. Of course the real world is always more complicated. I'd love to stand up and say I have all the answers and that I alone hold the real truth in my mind, but alas, not the case. I certainly don't want to be seen as "lecturing" only expressing my personal opinion and observations, biased as they are going to be from my background, education, phase of the moon, day of the week and so on. Surprisingly these views are most often modified by hearing the views of others who present something I've never considered or may not have fully understood.
For the records, I'm an American who served over a decade in the military as a nuclear technician under Rickover (patriotism not in question) and retired on disability. The US took very good care of me and supported me through two university degrees as rehab (sadly, couldn't get 'em to pay for the third one) I moved to England with my English wife where I'm quite happy and productive. Vets here don't get treated nearly as well. I'm certainly not going to bite the hand that has fed me so well.
Our business here is successful because we have applied a number of American strengths to it including marketing finesse, customer service, and flexible services.
If I could say anything it is that every country has its strengths and weaknesses. The US should actually be chuffed that the trend IS toward a global economy and that everyone else wants to play, not sit on the sidelines. Europe is a dynamo that is quickly realising the benefits of cooperation. Already Airbus has beaten the pants off Boeing in contracts for new jumbo planes and, as a result, Boeing has dropped plans to even build a new jumbo. The productivity and competitiveness of a combined Europe is nothing to sneer at nor are the markets that are being opened up. If America is the experienced hand at business that it is reputed to be then participation holds the promise of profits.
Certainly I'm not an anti-American American and I can tell the difference between the humorous character differences such as the American gregarious, larger than life attitude and those few who are vicious xenophobes. I maintain close ties with many American friends as well as business interests. But I will remind everyone that the thread started out asking about America's Image Abroad. I think that's pretty much what we got and I'm sure it's not what a lot of Americans would like to hear.
It think it's all been illuminating.
...really interesting.
I sit upwind from backpackers too! Well, if it's been hot anyway. Point is it's an acceptance, a tolerance, and a recognition of the differences.
I agree too about the examples I gave being simplistic. Of course the real world is always more complicated. I'd love to stand up and say I have all the answers and that I alone hold the real truth in my mind, but alas, not the case. I certainly don't want to be seen as "lecturing" only expressing my personal opinion and observations, biased as they are going to be from my background, education, phase of the moon, day of the week and so on. Surprisingly these views are most often modified by hearing the views of others who present something I've never considered or may not have fully understood.
For the records, I'm an American who served over a decade in the military as a nuclear technician under Rickover (patriotism not in question) and retired on disability. The US took very good care of me and supported me through two university degrees as rehab (sadly, couldn't get 'em to pay for the third one) I moved to England with my English wife where I'm quite happy and productive. Vets here don't get treated nearly as well. I'm certainly not going to bite the hand that has fed me so well.
Our business here is successful because we have applied a number of American strengths to it including marketing finesse, customer service, and flexible services.
If I could say anything it is that every country has its strengths and weaknesses. The US should actually be chuffed that the trend IS toward a global economy and that everyone else wants to play, not sit on the sidelines. Europe is a dynamo that is quickly realising the benefits of cooperation. Already Airbus has beaten the pants off Boeing in contracts for new jumbo planes and, as a result, Boeing has dropped plans to even build a new jumbo. The productivity and competitiveness of a combined Europe is nothing to sneer at nor are the markets that are being opened up. If America is the experienced hand at business that it is reputed to be then participation holds the promise of profits.
Certainly I'm not an anti-American American and I can tell the difference between the humorous character differences such as the American gregarious, larger than life attitude and those few who are vicious xenophobes. I maintain close ties with many American friends as well as business interests. But I will remind everyone that the thread started out asking about America's Image Abroad. I think that's pretty much what we got and I'm sure it's not what a lot of Americans would like to hear.
It think it's all been illuminating.
Closet Desire
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2000
- Posts
- 1,177
Now for something completely different...
"US Recognizes That Bush is Actually President"
Have a laugh and go to http://www.theonion.com
Don't miss the exhilirating report about sexual fantasty fulfilled.
I promise...you'll enjoy this.
"US Recognizes That Bush is Actually President"
Have a laugh and go to http://www.theonion.com
Don't miss the exhilirating report about sexual fantasty fulfilled.
I promise...you'll enjoy this.
Oliver Clozoff said:
Hey, no real argument here. If America was 100% bad and evil the rest of us would all be singing America the Beautiful(Albeit while planning to take you down.)
But has it really been good for Americans? Some Americans sure. And much of the wealth you speak of was built off the backs of slaves and mistreated Chinese workers. It involved the genocide of the Native Americans. It is directly tied to the opression(Admittedly this was worldwide) of women. These are the good things in the past. These are the things America has done to build its economic strength.\
But that's besides the point. The US is a real good country. It would finish in my top 20 easy. But living, as Mr. Mulroney put it, so close to the elephant you hear a lot about you guys thinking that you're number 1. Which is pretty annoying and fairly ridiculous, unless your standard is that Rich americans live better than Rich people everywhere else.
Problem Child
titleless
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2001
- Posts
- 27,935
EvilBollWeevil said:
Micheal Moore is an asshole, and really not very funny.
Sorry, I just had to throw that in.
Problem Child
titleless
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2001
- Posts
- 27,935
I thought his movie Roger and Me(wasn't that the name of it?)was good, but I tried watching his TV show and didn't think it was all that. Some of the stuff he tried to "expose" was just stupid, and definitely crossed the line from genuine investigation to downright harrassment.
Plus he's a fucking disgusting slob. The guy's making bank and he dresses like he's living in a homeless shelter in Detroit. Have some respect for Christ sake.
Plus he's a fucking disgusting slob. The guy's making bank and he dresses like he's living in a homeless shelter in Detroit. Have some respect for Christ sake.
Problem Child
titleless
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2001
- Posts
- 27,935
A lot of people hate US. What can we say except "It's good to be da King".
hehe
hehe
Problem Child
titleless
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2001
- Posts
- 27,935
Thumbs up to the Texan and welcome. I was hoping someone would get the reference.
Some of the best pussy I haven't had the pleasure of having yet is in Tejas.
About all this Bashing America crap.... Hey, give us a break, especially you Canadians. You ain't all that different from us other than your crappy socialized medical system and the fact that you say the word about as if you were referring to something that people use to travel on the water.
Most Americans aren't world-hating, rabid consumer, We're-better-than-you types. We're just normal working stiffs that are proud of what we've achieved as a nation and embarrassed by some of our fuck-ups. Pretty much like people in any comparable country.
So lay the fuck off already.
Would you rather we all acted like the French?
Some of the best pussy I haven't had the pleasure of having yet is in Tejas.
About all this Bashing America crap.... Hey, give us a break, especially you Canadians. You ain't all that different from us other than your crappy socialized medical system and the fact that you say the word about as if you were referring to something that people use to travel on the water.
Most Americans aren't world-hating, rabid consumer, We're-better-than-you types. We're just normal working stiffs that are proud of what we've achieved as a nation and embarrassed by some of our fuck-ups. Pretty much like people in any comparable country.
So lay the fuck off already.
Would you rather we all acted like the French?
Texan
'nuf said
- Joined
- May 31, 2001
- Posts
- 2,146
thanks
I appreciate the welcome, especially from a fellow Texan. It's a shame that little things like work and family will interrupt the fun I am begining to have on these boards. Now if I can only figure out how to do a "spellcheck" on my posts. By the way, like many of the people I read here, I have a "lighter side", and can't promise not to post some really silly messages on some less than serious threads.
I appreciate the welcome, especially from a fellow Texan. It's a shame that little things like work and family will interrupt the fun I am begining to have on these boards. Now if I can only figure out how to do a "spellcheck" on my posts. By the way, like many of the people I read here, I have a "lighter side", and can't promise not to post some really silly messages on some less than serious threads.
Texan
'nuf said
- Joined
- May 31, 2001
- Posts
- 2,146
I'm laughing so hard
PC... it took me a minute, but I finally got the joke about (I mean a boat) the the Canadians. Then your comment about the French. Maybe it's just good to see the tables turned, if for only a moment.
And thanks for the welcome.
PC... it took me a minute, but I finally got the joke about (I mean a boat) the the Canadians. Then your comment about the French. Maybe it's just good to see the tables turned, if for only a moment.
And thanks for the welcome.
Problem Child
titleless
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2001
- Posts
- 27,935
Tejano,
There is no spell check feature here, but Laurel has promise to add one soon. God knows we need it for all the non-spelling dolts around this joint.
You can always type your post into Word then C&P it here, or HEY! there's even the dictionary. Some folks are so bad they can't even get to the right page though.
I sure hope dubbya turns out to be the education president, but I ain't holdin' my breath.
There is no spell check feature here, but Laurel has promise to add one soon. God knows we need it for all the non-spelling dolts around this joint.
You can always type your post into Word then C&P it here, or HEY! there's even the dictionary. Some folks are so bad they can't even get to the right page though.
I sure hope dubbya turns out to be the education president, but I ain't holdin' my breath.
Similar threads
