America's Image Abroad

[Andra_Jenny]

So it was Europeans who broke treaties with Sitting Bull? Was it the Swedes who obliterated the Nez Perce? I'm not even sure you're reading what you're writing any more.

The Lacota Souix were no band of angels. When they encountered the white man, they were in a midst of an expansion at the expense of their neighbors, many formerly peaceful tribes (many who were already adapting to the new way of lfe because they had no choice; missionaries and the new deseases they carried where often they destroyers of Indians, their culture and civilization, not outright killing, but I digress). Sitting Bull in particular had a penchant for making treaties, then going back, having visions, getting his people, a war-like mob anyway by heritage, and "going off the reservation." I would submit that making truces with that particular group was somewhat akin to dealing with Arafat.

In short, historically they were bad neighbors, they were currently bad neighbors, and had demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt that they would continue to be bad neighbors if someone did not go and kick their ass. They were a lot like the new Europeans, except they lacked the technology to compete on the battlefield and suffered the same fate as countless civilizations before them.

I will offer this postscript. In 1913, on an Island at the southernmost tip of South America, the last remaining Aboriginal Americans passed away. Who do you think displaced them?

 

[Andra_Jenny]

Lavender,
I agree with your concerns about Bush's direction, but really half of the country and certainly the Democrats are out to make sure none of this happens and even now, today Dashle is saying no way on that and ANWAR, so...

The bigger point here is, if my enemy has a weapon, and I develope a way to shoot that weapon down and keep my weapons, then yes, I would be nervous. I would tell China that with each successful test of my new system, that I am going to reduce my arsonnel to an agreed-to amount. I would visibly demonstrate that I mean to have peace, which the United States does wish (the one thing I hope we can all be in agreement on).

As Dr. Daeshik Kim offers to Christians when defending the act of learning how to fight,
I you slap me and I cannot defend myself, then turning the other cheek is the only option and hence not the noble, but rather the expedient thing to do. If on the other hand, you can defend yourself and choose to turn the other cheek, then you have done a very noble thing indeed.

I say press on.

We do not know what miracles will come from the new technology. Maybe completely safe roads? Airports...

 

[Weevil]

The Lacota Souix were no band of angels. When they encountered the white man, they were in a midst of an expansion at the expense of their neighbors, many formerly peaceful tribes (many who were already adapting to the new way of lfe because they had no choice; missionaries and the new deseases they carried where often they destroyers of Indians, their culture and civilization, not outright killing, but I digress). Sitting Bull in particular had a penchant for making treaties, then going back, having visions, getting his people, a war-like mob anyway by heritage, and "going off the reservation." I would submit that making truces with that particular group was somewhat akin to dealing with Arafat.

In short, historically they were bad neighbors, they were currently bad neighbors, and had demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt that they would continue to be bad neighbors if someone did not go and kick their ass. They were a lot like the new Europeans, except they lacked the technology to compete on the battlefield and suffered the same fate as countless civilizations before them.

I will offer this postscript. In 1913, on an Island at the southernmost tip of South America, the last remaining Aboriginal Americans passed away. Who do you think displaced them?

I don't really care, but that's beside the point.

EVen if I were to concede every point you made it's still just one tribe amongst hundreds. Were the natives angels? No but who is. America acted disgustingly to them as a whole and until you can legitimately challenge that point the argument is somewhat ridiculous.

And to stray back to the main point the Economic wealth of the United States is built on the Exploitation and Genocide of others

 

[Andra_Jenny]

What are you talking about? I really hope you're joking.

Vic,

Anybody can take any stance on history. When people start talking about the Indians, they choose a history that shows them to be generally a peacefull, idyllic, pastoral society that was terribly wronged by the white man. But they were people and some of them were bad Indians even to other indians. Some Indian Tribes overwhelmed by the new technologies and decimated by diseases opted for the new way of life. Some of the tribe were busy carving new territories at the expense of other indians. When they met the white man, they did what they always did before. Fought 'em.

I have an oral history to rely on that goes with your written history.

 

[Ally C]

And to stray back to the main point the Economic wealth of the United States is built on the Exploitation and Genocide of others

I wouldn't exactly say that this is a common image of America abroad. Grounds for a debate on human nature perhaps, but beyond that I can sense a point scoring scenario about to begin where various countries are cited as having their origins in exploitation and genocide. Not much fun really.

 

[Andra_Jenny]

As a Kansan, I see what p_p_man and others do because we get it from New Yorkers, Californians, sorry, Texans, and that is patronization. The Europeans have always viewed us as provincial, childish, rambunctious, etc. It is a lot like the ancient rant about how kids never change.

Even after we have out-paced them, defended them, and will probabbly have to care for them like aging parents,

they will still talk to us and consider us as backward somewhat slow cousins.

 

[Andra_Jenny]

I submit, the French aided the Revolution simply to fuck with the British and it was minimal at best.

 

[Ally C]

Anybody can take any stance on history. When people start talking about the Indians, they choose a history that shows them to be generally a peacefull, idyllic, pastoral society that was terribly wronged by the white man. But they were people and some of them were bad Indians even to other indians. Some Indian Tribes overwhelmed by the new technologies and decimated by diseases opted for the new way of life. Some of the tribe were busy carving new territories at the expense of other indians. When they met the white man, they did what they always did before. Fought 'em.

I have an oral history to rely on that goes with your written history.

Does the following sound familiar? It's your critique moderated with little effort and with no change to meaning:

Anybody can take any stance on history. When people start talking about Americans, they choose a history that shows them to be generally a warmongering, greedy, wasteful society that was terribly wronged by the Russians, Germans, British, Chinese, French, Spanish, Cubans, and just about everyone else. But they were people and some of them were bad Americans even to other Americans. Some Americans overwhelmed by the new technologies and decimated by diseases opted for the new way of life [Generation X]. Some of the tribe were busy carving new territories at the expense of other nations if not their own. When they met the yellow man [or anyone else who stood in their way], they did what they always did before. Fought 'em. That or they bought them out.

I have an oral history to rely on that goes with your written history.

This being the case in both examples (yours and mine), then you just seem to be saying that whoever has the most military might deserves to win by *ahem* virtue of possession of that military power. Is that all that you base your reasoning on? Do you really believe this? Much more importantly, do you think that this is a noble quality that we should all aspire to?

 

[Andra_Jenny]

No America has not acted disgustingly. On an individual point by point case, yes we have bevaved badly towards most all groups. But we right things at light-speed compared to the rest of the world. American Indians have more opportunities, as do all other groups than ever before and I, as a half-breed born in the 50's, have witnessed the amazing changes in our society. Many minorities came and had nothing to offer but sweat equity which they were willing to give and sacrifice that there children and grand-children will have everthing they had ever dreamed of. It is still possible here and maybe only here. I submit that there is a longer waiting line of people wanting to get into the United States than any other garden spot on the face of the earth.

but I could be wrong...

 

[Andra_Jenny]

No, just pointing out some more subtle racism in some other people's thoughts since I have been declared by some to be an out and out racist.

 

[Ally C]

I submit, the French aided the Revolution simply to fuck with the British and it was minimal at best.

The following is not 'made up' to 'save face' or to distort facts:

American generalship played a key part. The Spanish tipped the balance of naval power. Britain did not want to fight the sort of all out war that might guarantee 'victory', as this would disenchant, terrorize and alienate those who didn't have major grievances with British rule. Geography played its part too. The fact that peaceful negotiations soon began afterwards, and that 'Britain' was anything but a singular entity with total interest or even knowledge of goings on in America at that time is also noteworthy. Move on, everyone else has.

If you stop using national place names in a way which forecloses all meaning apart from your own narrow view, then I'll consider stopping reading in great depth about issues from a range of perspectives which seem entirely lost on you. No offence, have a nice day.

 

[Andra_Jenny]

I can't.
you're too smart for me!
Besides, it is my narrow view.
I come from a place with narrow views.
We believe we started the civil war...



have a nice day!

 

[Problem Child]

Re: yawn...

...nah...not bored...just got up. Lot's of juicy stuff overnight I see!

Problem child...you sort of highlight what many of us have been saying is a provencial view. We don't have American appliances in our homes because American's don't make a suitable product. The reality is that our kitchens are designed around the toaster and not the refrigerator. Consider that London alone has a population greater than most states (11,000,000) and that England is the size of Oklahoma with a population of over 40 million...our houses are tiny. Fridges, freezers, washers, and dryers have to fit under the counter in the kitchen. Still, you're deluding yourself if you think your appliances are US made. The compressor units in your fridge/freezers are just as likely to have come from Italy or even Russia. You don't see British cars but then again we don't see American cars in any great number either. Why? They aren't really suitable. The suspensions are too soft, we don't need drink holders because driving is too demanding, and, bluntly, they aren't fast enough. Besides, it doesn't really make much sense to buy something from across the atlantic when you can buy it from across the channel, does it?

Ok, fine you like toasters, we like refrigerators. We are different. Does this mean our manufacturing base is gone? No. It may have diminished, but like most of the countries in the industrialized world, we are making the switch from a manufacturing based economy to a service and information bsed economy. The same thing is happening in Western Europe. More and more products are coming out of eastern Europe because wages are lower there, and since the fall of communism, there is a huge new workforce available.
Different societies have different requirements. And I understand that many "American" products are made overseas. This is what US companies have had to do to compete with cheap labor abroad. I'ts a part of economic survival. Your cars are suited for your roads, ours are suited for ours...again, why does this make America wrong? We live our lives the way we see fit, you do the same.

Trial systems? You are kidding yourself again. With the exception of Louisiana, US law is based on English common law. Presumption of innocence, freedom of speech, right to gather? We do all those things without interference from the Godless authorities. In fact, some forms of expression are much freer here than in the US. Just having a Constitution that says it's so doesn't make it so or exclude other countries from having a culturally based enlightenment which is equivalent. Similar solutions to similar concerns and problems. Put simply, door hinges in America work just like the ones in England.

No, I'm not kidding myself, I understand perfectly well what you're saying about common law, but it has nothing to do with my response to p_p_man. He said our judicial system was corrupt, and I disagreed. I think we have the fairest criminal system in the world. Would I like to see many changes...of course. It's a work in progress, just like a lot of things here. We keep at it till we get it right.
I never said that Europe doesn't have do a hell of a lot of things right, and I never said Europeans don't have freedom of speech, religion, etc. I was pointing out that the US has had these rights for a lot more years than most of the countries on this planet.
My basic point is that some people seem to want to go on and on about what a shitty country the US is. I have no gripe with Europeans, and I wonder why people like p_p_man want to spend so much time running us down. If I wanted to take the time to research it, I'm sure I could make out a laundry list of 1001 shitty things about Europe...but whats the point?

I am curious why you automatically go to extremes, speak in absolutes, and assume things that were never said. That's one of the contradictions about some Americans that participants on this thread have been talking about.

I didn't go to extremes (did you read p_p_man's last post? Didn't he get a little extreme?). I tried to answer p_p_mans questions directly, albeit some of my responses were a bit sarcastic.

 

[Ally C]

you're too smart for me!

Not necessarily. I referenced 'my reading' on such matters very much tongue in cheek, as I haven't read in great depth about anything specific, but have read lots of unrelated stuff and like to think that I can still cobble some points together when the need arises. You do the exact same thing too, only differently.

have a nice day!

You too.

 

[Closet Desire]

Problem Child...

I didn't suggest America was "wrong" for how it chooses products or how they are made. I was replying to your comment that there aren't any French refrigerators in the US. You do contradict yourself rather badly when you proudly proclaim that you pay a decent wage to workers but then justify outsourcing to countries where labor is cheaper in order to "compete". If Americans are buying the products they prefer and these products are not really suitable for other countries then are you suggesting Americans aren't willing to pay fellow Americans a decent wage to make those products for them? Worried about competition from "abroad" then do what you do with the steel industry and protect it with tariffs or bans. Force Americans to buy from their fellows who earn a decent wage.

You think you have the fairest criminal system in the world? Join the club. Every country thinks that. Here's rub though...where's your evidence? You've expressed an opinion and that's fair enough, but don't give it a veneer of fact unless you have something to quantify it with. Right now the headlines across the world are about a man sentenced to be executed by a criminal system that didn't follow its own rules about "discovery" (providing the defense with all the documents). One can argue that it makes no difference, that he's still guilty, but the simple fact is that the system broke its own rules. That's a mistrial. Legal systems are invented and run by ordinary people and are subject to all the failings and frailties of humans.

Yes, extremes. I for one haven't described America as shitty. I've only shared opinions and perceptions as viewed from abroad (tempered I might point out by the fact that I am an American). Your posts seem to miss the context with alarming frequency and your use of such descriptive terms as "fucking this" and "fucking that" hardly inspires credibility. Your posts seem to suggest a complete lack of awareness of anything beyond your front door.

 

[Ally C]

I don't care where my refrigerator is made as long as it refrigerates.

 

[CRaZy]

Just want to make a general observation about the differences between Australians/Americans and the British since the topic of TV licences etc. came up. The British are basically a law abiding country. They wouldn't think to defraud the government of their TV licence fee. They just accept it. On weekends, there are a minimum of guards on trains. You are supposed to buy tickets from a machine at the station. There is no-one to check it. When I asked my relatives why they bothered to pay there was a startled response, "Because you are SUPPOSED to." LOL. The British don't really mind the Big Brother attitudes that we would see as invasions of civil rights in Oz and the U.S. I think it's because the vast majority have very little to hide. LOL.

 

[Closet Desire]

Ally C

You remind me of a sign I used to see at the "foreign" car parts store I freqented as a teen. It read: "Lucas is the reason the British drink warm beer!"

For those of you who miss the humour, Lucas was (maybe still is) a major manufacturer of refrigeration units as well as electrical equipment for Triumphs, MGs, Jags, Minis, and so on. It reputation for reliability (or lack thereof) was legendary.

Hee hee...couldn't resist. You're right too...who cares as long as it stays cold!

As for the observation about the British honour system I think you're pretty spot on. I never thought about not paying myself(although Tony Blair's wife got caught and cited!). Mind you, they do have a new system now on the main lines where you can't get on or off the platform without a valid ticket. It's mostly at the high volume places for commuters like Liverpool Street. It's electronic with a mag stripe on the back and you have to feed it to the gate to get through.

 

[Ally C]

CRaZy

Yeah right. That explains why the government goes to the bother of TV advertising [funny huh?], not to mention placing advertisements on the side of buses with messages like "There are 5 houses on *enter street name and town* without a TV licence". As for those train journeys, the less said the better.

 

[p_p_man]

A Reminder of the Thread Title...

America's Image Abtroad

Problem Child

This is written in response to your post but for some reason the "quote" function isn't working at the moment so I'll have to do it this way.

I've been away for a day and a bit and was quite frankly surprised to see that this thread is still surviving. When I left it yesterday it looked as though it was on it's last legs. I suppose that's proof that an interesting and diverse debate can continue ad infinitum as long as there are view to express.

I was also surprised that somewhere along the line I had turned into the bete noir of the thread - or at least the latter part of it. I must admit its a new experience for me on Lit but not in life so I will reply very briefly to your thread and ignore all the others.

I presume my thread expounding extreme views as mentioned in your thread (damn this lack of quote function) referred to an attempt to bring the thread back to its original title. Debates are all very well but they do have a tendancy to take on a life of their own and all I wanted to do was to pull the points together as I had read and understood them on the thread.

The points I raised are common enough and by now most Americans, I'm sure, know that the picture I painted is in fact the way that most of the world views the USA. They are not my thoughts alone but I will admit to agreeing in part to what they convey.

Why the rest of us have this image I can't tell. Perhaps it's Hollywood churning out Gung Ho films, perhaps it's a slightly different version of history folks on your side of the pond seem to have as opposed our version. Perhaps it's the willingness of Americans to snap at anyone who dares criticise them. Perhaps it's what we read in the media. As I said I don't know why, I just know that what I wrote is the overriding image that America portrays.

It may be that your country is a victim of it's own success. Everyone (I don't know everyone of course - just a figure of speech) but I should imagine a large percentage of the world's population, leap on anything that comes out of America and devours it with almost obscene relish. Your news be it Presidential elections, McVeigh's trial and error, space shots, entertainment, violence, relationships, in fact anything is studied intently.

Unfortunately your news reaches us through the media and we all know that in their eyes bad news makes good news.

I've been living with an image of America all my life. When I was younger it was fed by a vision of a country with a high standard of living, two car families, wonderful housing and everyone looking happy, fit, well off and riding horses on a cattle ranch. Most of the world wanted to go and live there. Even my family made plans to emigrate but as these things often do the plans fell through.

Slowly, and I can't tell you when or why there was a shift in emphasis the image changed and what I wrote in my post is an attempt to answer the thread title.

Extreme? I don't think so, honest yes.

 

[Texan]

every time I go to sleep

and think this thread had died, POOF... it comes back to life. It's an interesting topic with intelligent posters.

I travel extensivesly (for business) in Latin America. When I'm in Argentina and Chile, it would be nice to have a t-shirt that reads: "I'm from the U.S.A. .. Not England". Ever since that little skirmish over the Falkland Islands, the Argentines haven't been particularly fond of the Brits. I was also in Santiago, Chile during the time when the Supreme Court of England was trying to decide whether to extradite Pinochet to Spain or return him to Chile. The Brits were in a "catch 22". Half the people of Chile wanted Pinochet sent to Spain for trial, and half wanted him returned to Chile. However, during that time, there were protests and riots against the British Consulate in Santiago. Half the Chileans still resent England for sending him home.

When you get envolved in the political struggles of any other country, you will find favor in the eyes of some while reaping the wrath of others. The U.S. frequently finds itself in this difficult position. It can become isolationist and ignore the problems around the world, and suffer the condemnation of many; or it can get envolved and suffer the condemnation of the remainder.

 

[Problem Child]

Re: Problem Child...

I didn't suggest America was "wrong" for how it chooses products or how they are made. I was replying to your comment that there aren't any French refrigerators in the US. You do contradict yourself rather badly when you proudly proclaim that you pay a decent wage to workers but then justify outsourcing to countries where labor is cheaper in order to "compete". If Americans are buying the products they prefer and these products are not really suitable for other countries then are you suggesting Americans aren't willing to pay fellow Americans a decent wage to make those products for them? Worried about competition from "abroad" then do what you do with the steel industry and protect it with tariffs or bans. Force Americans to buy from their fellows who earn a decent wage.

I'm not contradicting myself at all. I'm stating the truth. We have a relativley high standard of living in this country, and people here won't work for a dollar an hour like they will in underdeveloped countries, so many of our countries are going offshore for cheap labor, and we are transitioning from a manufacturing economy to a service and information economy. It doesn't mean that we still don't produce a hell of a lot of manufactured goods. Where is the contradiction in all that?
Of course Americans are going to buy the cheaper goods from overseas, and so does everyone else, unless the price is artificially raised by tarriffs. We have a heck of a time competing against european ag commodities because they are so heavily protected. The tarriff game is fun, but it gets completely out of control real fast if nations aren't careful.

You think you have the fairest criminal system in the world? Join the club. Every country thinks that. Here's rub though...where's your evidence? You've expressed an opinion and that's fair enough, but don't give it a veneer of fact unless you have something to quantify it with. Right now the headlines across the world are about a man sentenced to be executed by a criminal system that didn't follow its own rules about "discovery" (providing the defense with all the documents). One can argue that it makes no difference, that he's still guilty, but the simple fact is that the system broke its own rules. That's a mistrial. Legal systems are invented and run by ordinary people and are subject to all the failings and frailties of humans.

You just proved my point. The missing documents were discovered and McVeigh may very well get a mistrial. Like you said, no system is perfect as long as it's run by humans. As I've said a few times, I have never claimed we the greatest nation on earth. I'm sure most of the legal systems in europe work just fine. I just got tired of some people saying everything in America sucks.

Yes, extremes. I for one haven't described America as shitty. I've only shared opinions and perceptions as viewed from abroad (tempered I might point out by the fact that I am an American). Your posts seem to miss the context with alarming frequency and your use of such descriptive terms as "fucking this" and "fucking that" hardly inspires credibility. Your posts seem to suggest a complete lack of awareness of anything beyond your front door.

Well, good for you CD...others have painted this country as a place no one in their right mind would want to live in, and I'm just trying to add a little balance. If you take every remark that's made to a broad audience and apply it personally to you, you'll spend a lot of time pissed off.
And yes, I am such a foulmouth, I know. Let's see I used fuck once and shitty once in two relatively long posts. You used shitty once in your last post and then misquoted me saying fuck...golly I can keep track of all this profanity, am I ahead of you or is it the other way round....
Sorry to offend your sensibilities. Sheesh...you'd think we were at a porn site or something ridiculous like that.

I'll try and step outside and see the world for you today.

Okay?

 

[lavender]

 

[CRaZy]

Re: CRaZy

Yeah right. That explains why the government goes to the bother of TV advertising [funny huh?], not to mention placing advertisements on the side of buses with messages like "There are 5 houses on *enter street name and town* without a TV licence". As for those train journeys, the less said the better.

LMAO. The TV advertising thing is ironic and this little aside is off the topic. Point is, 75% or more DO have a TV licence. I think in any other country except maybe Switzerland, the statistics would be reversed.

 

[Closet Desire]

Problem Child

I hate to disappoint you but your arguments aren't even worth the effort of a reply.