America's Image Abroad

[MidwestParadox]

The need to address a few points made earlier

Unusually Confused put our charitable efforts on the table for discussion. Point is, that charitable feeling toward the rest of the world has fallen since the USSR closed up shop. We were quick to give, but heavy handed in what we expected in return. Translation, when the world war comes, will you line up on our side or theirs. International aide has lost appeal now that it is not just another weapon in the cold war.

A lot has been made about US dependence on imports of all types to keep our economy going. That is true but the flip side of that argument is never or rarely mentioned. We are the only economic engine that can afford to absorb the bulk of international exportable goods. If we go down so does the international market. When we talk about a truly international marketplace, what we really mean is the US market is the main engine that all the rest depends upon. Think about it. Japan, the economic superpower has been stagnant for 10 long years. At the same time, the rest of the world took off. Think what would happen if the US economy remain sluggish for even two or three years?

What does build resentment is our insistence that every economy in the world adhere to our brand of capitalism. No other way is even considered. But what we as Americans seem to forget, it is a unique blend of a strong belief in private property, a Judeo-Christian ethical background, a democracy that has proven resilient and flexible, a judicial system based on precedent and not a rigid dependence on tradition. That blend makes us truly unique.

Again, I hear reference to how we rebuilt the world and our so-called allies, the very countries we rebuilt after WW II, have the nerve to question our actions and motives? Well,,,,, we kind of had to rebuild the economies not to prevent the spread of communism as the propaganda of the day told us, but to ensure the survival of free market enterprise. Simply put, if left to their own resources to recover the return of pre war depression was all but insured. We used the really meager sums spent post WWII as the springboard to economic world domination. Don't get me started on how our business leaders ended up squandering our head start by confusing favorable circumstance for divine endorsement of the American Way.

I think the rest of the world is disappointed in how the US is handling it's role as first among equals. Pure and simple. We have taken a set of circumstance that could have been the beginning of a golden age of life and wasted the opportunity by falling prey to greed. That just proves that our system is in trouble because we are letting the balance between capitalism and democracy tilt precariously toward the capital.

 

[Closet Desire]

I think...

...it's this idea of self-proclaimed "first" that gets up people's noses. The US is really great at a lot of things and I do love it. There are lots of things I hate too...like moral intolerance, religious intolerance (I'm not talking about Methodists and Lutherans getting along), and the idea that 100 years of supremacy is a really long time (let's face facts...the US wasn't much of a dynamo before the 20th century). Nobody wants another person, state, or country saying to their face "we're better than you."

It sort of depends on what your value system is. The English are sort of fond of the idea that they aren't likely to be killed in a robbery. The Germans sort of like the idea that they can drive 200mph without getting arrested. The Italians like the idea that it's okay to have sex in your car, in public, as long as you cover the windows in newspaper. The French like the idea that they can pretty much do whatever the fuck they want. And so on.

The judicial system in America has demonstrated itself as just as uncertain as the rest of them, if a bit more permanent. Let's see, it's Oklahoma that has several people on death row who were convicted almost entirely on the "scientific" evidence of a woman whose work was anything but. Scary thing is that some have already been executed. Woops. I read nearly every day now about somebody in America being released because of DNA testing. Wooops again. It ain't perfect is it?

Judicial systems always seem to spark off heated debates. If an English woman is caught smuggling drugs in Thailand and convicted there is outcry about the injustice of it, as though no other country is capable of being fair and just (notice I didn't pick on the US this time?).

Judicial systems evolve as does everything else. England once executed petty thieves and prostitutes. Sometimes they saved the prostitutes for something worse...exile in America (read Moll Flanders...a good moral read). They finally stopped hanging people quite a few decades ago.

I'm curious too about efforts to export American politics to European politics with this left right thing. I'm not so sure it works very well. It's apples and oranges really. Let's talk about being poor. Being on the dole over here isn't a luxury...probably even tougher than the US. You get bad credit here and you're fucked for lots of things like jobs, houses, telephones, utilities (you end up with an electric meter that you have to feed coins into...no kidding). You get a judgment against you or, worse, file bankruptcy and you'll not get certain jobs, can't open a bank account, can't rent a flat or house, or ever get a loan. It's the scarlet A. You get convicted of a petty crime and you'll always have a menial job and ditto on the credit stuff. You're screwed. You don't get second chances. It sounds a lot like conservative politics to me.

Liberals wanting to mess with your privacy? That's left isn't it? Europe has far tougher privacy laws than the US. You want to keep a database of customers for your little widget shop so you can send them marketing fliers? You'll need to register under the Data Protection Act to do that and you'll not be allowed to transfer information to the US because the US doesn't have similar safeguards. Lots of American companies are currently unable to do business here because they cannot or will not guarantee the privacy of their customers.

It all gets a little too fuzzy to translate across the Atlantic.

I seem to recall a tiny handful of third world countries bringing America's economic engine to a halt in 1973. Hmmm...let's see...oil embargo. America doesn't make, can't make lcd diplays for laptop computers...admits it doesn't even have the technology for the current crop. Who does? Singapore, Japan, Taiwan, and Korea. America has a vested interest in keeping their economies healthy or at least breathing. Memory chips? Not many made in the US and when a fire in Korea burned down one of the leading edge plants last year or the year before the whole world suffered. How long has it been since your wardrobe said "made in America"? Have a look...I think Fruit of the Loom briefs and Levis are still proudly made in the USA.

It was only ten years ago that one of the only things keeping America going was investment by foreign business who also recognised the importance of keeping America healthy. I don't recall them making a lot of fanfare about it. I think you would be surprised to find out the actual ownership shares of a number of the top 500. Up until last week even Smith and Wesson was owned by the British. You want it your way...you know...flame broiled Whopper? Yep...British. The drugs you need to stay alive...the good kind? A large proportion come out of German labs and Scandanavian. Yeah...I buy a lot of stocks...it's handy to know who owns what and how much.

Truth is the US is already globally owned...investors and businesses already know this. It just takes a long for it to, like Reagan used to say, "trickle down."

 

[Texan]

respectful reply to lavender's post

I am also enjoying the vast majority of this thread. While you enjoyed Vic’s post because of its content, I disliked his post because of its self-righteous condescending attitude. While I disagree with several of your positions, I enjoyed reading your post because it was considered and rationally presented.

(lavender)
"It appears to me that America's role in the post-Cold War era is shifting with the Bush Administration. My stance on this is not partisan, it goes beyond my normal liberal ideals. "

I am basically a conservative. In some areas I’m very conservative, while in other areas, I am very moderate. For example: I’m an advocate of free speech and I’m pro-choice, but I’m also and advocate of state’s rights and I believe we are over taxed. I am a Republican (with a capital R) while reserving the right to vocally disagree with my party. I have also had several opportunities to sit down and talk with both GW and his father, and I confess that this may have some affect on my opinion of his intelligence. In Vic’s eyes, I may have just become one of GW’s “Texas cronies”, but I assure you, this is not the case.

(lavendar)
"Here are my examples of things that scare the hell out of me about the next four years in American foreign policy. First, one of Bush's first steps was to drastically reduce the amount of foreign aid to Russia."

American aid to Russia continues uninterrupted through the IMF and the World Bank in the form of loan guarantees. How much do you want to bet that eventually these loans will be “forgiven” and the American taxpayer will once again “foot the bill”. Direct aid to Russia during the Clinton and former Bush administrations was used mostly to pay government employee pensions. If it ever became necessary, could the United States ever expect any other country in the world to bail out our FERS (Federal Employees Retirement System) or how about our Social Security System? Also, the Russian module for the International Space Station was six months late and was so far over budget that the U.S. had to step in and pay for most of it.

What Russia really needs is foreign investment. However, they refuse to make the changes that would allow foreign businesses to invest in Russia without inordinate risk. They do not allow foreign majority ownership of Russian companies. They do not allow foreign majority ownership of fixed assets or land. They do not permit profits to leave the country without punitive taxation. Add to this, the Russian mafia’s “cut” of the profits, and why would foreign businesses want to invest in Russia?

(lavender)
"Secondly, Bush's tactics with China seem a bit out of place. China is petrified about NMD. They believe that they are the true targets of Bush's NMD system"

China should be petrified of NMD. Since China spends only 20% as much money on defense as the U.S., the only serious power they have in the world is their ICBM system and their huge disposable infantry.

(lavender)
"I was glad to see that Bush will continue normalized trade relations with China. I truly think the Clinton approach to China was well researched and well executed."

Normalized trade relations with China (MFN trade status) began under former President Bush. Clinton (and the Democratic Party) used MFN status to garner huge campaign contributions from the Chineese.

(lavender)
"China needs our economic allegiance."

China needs our markets for cheap manufactured goods.

(lavender)
"As the Chinese economy continues to grow it will create a middle class. This middle class is the appropriate way to slowly chip away at an authoritarian regime. "

Total agreement here!

(lavender)
"But what is most shocking is that Bush is losing the support of many European nations. They are truly dismayed by what they see occurring in America."

I don’t see this the same way. Bush’s stance on the Kyoto Treaty goes against the agenda of many of our European allies (Chancellor Gerhard for one), but Bush is VERY right on this issue. I could talk about this in extensive detail, but that’s a separate thread. Europe doesn’t like what is happening to their agricultural exports due to animal diseases in Europe. They don’t like the American ban on imports and how the U.S. is capitalizing on their temporary misfortunes. I can understand their resentment on this issue, but what other intelligent option does the U.S. have? Other issues like the death penalty and gun ownership laws truly are American domestic issues and are none of Europe’s business.

(lavender)
"I truly believe that the decreased image of America abroad has to do with the fact that many of our human rights policies are viewed as a bit backwards. We promote our nation as the leader of the free world. Yet, there are so many civil rights and economic rights abuses in the United States that we are viewed as hypocritical."

These are domestic issues and at least half the American people might disagree with Europe’s (and your) opinions here.

(lavender)
"I agree that America is a wonderful nation. But there are many nations who offer the kind of freedom that we have in America. We do have a very unique system of government. But, that does not necessarily mean it is the best. Governmental systems change, economic systems change. Granted, democracy and capitalism seem to have won the battle today, but we will not know for a few centuries that it was truly the greatest."

I’m trying to open my mind here. I could spend several days defending democracy and capitalism, but history and current events do a much better job than I can do. Socialism has shriveled up and died in the face of capitalism. Communism, autocracy and fascism REQUIRE an absolute suppression of individual and human rights, so I know a liberal like you wouldn’t advocate one of those governmental systems. What am I missing?

(lavender)
"Americans can be patriotic and proud of their nation. But they shouldn't insult other nations in order to promote their strength and sense of pride and honor."

Total agreement here!

(lavender)
"America truly needs to embrace the idea of globalization."

We disagree here. I am not an isolationist, but subordination of America’s national objectives to the “greater good” of the world, is not practical when the majority of the world lives in comparative poverty. We should work to bring the rest of the world UP to the prosperity of America, rather than bringing America DOWN to the poverty of the third world.

I hope my response has been as reasoned and respectfully delivered as was yours. I have to figure out how to use BOLD type and quotes in this new format.

 

[Closet Desire]

just a couple of notes...

I'm a keen observer of the Russian space program and sat on pins and needles as three satellites I was (am) invested in rode up on Proton rockets. Part of the delay was that the US would not allow the Russians to launch portions of the ISS until it could demonstrate that it had fixed problems with the Proton launch system. Reasonable enough, but also a cause of delays as well as a financial burden for the Russians who depend on the income to support their already tipsy programme. I do have to admit not knowing very much about the economic support, loans, or investment problems of the Russian economy. It's always hard to change a system that has been around for donkey's years.

Socialism dried up? Not here it hasn't...it's alive and well. In fact, I'm married to one, a socialist that is. Socialism isn't the evil chimera that I was taught about in American schools. It is alive and well in the US although it is called by other names. Medicare, social security, aid to families with children, etc. would all be considered socialism inspired programmes here. It's not a political party in the usual sense of the word (although there are anti-capitalists who call themselves socialists). It's really just about taking care of the incidentals of living in any society. I think Friedman called them externalities. These are the costs you have to bear if you choose to live in a society. In a rude way you could say it is a way of keeping the peasants from revolting. In a more polite way it's the truth that there are people who either cannot or will not contribute to the upkeep of living in a society and the rest of society must bear the burden. It's not a big price to bear in my mind. As I said earlier, it isn't a lifestyle I envy and I would never call it a free ride. Just a sensible investment by those of us who choose to work hard and be successful. You can call it luck too if you want.

I too have really enjoyed this thread and the different views expressed in dignified fashion.

 

[Texan]

Let me propose a hypothetical question

Let me propose a hypothetical question.

You rear your children to have a sense of responsibility. You instill in your children values through the example of how you live your own life. You teach them that the decisions and choices they make in life will have consequences.

Meanwhile, your neighbor fails to teach his children any of the values that you taught yours. Through your neighbor’s example, his children grow up lazy and dishonest. His children are taught to believe that the “government” will take care of them if they learn the “system”.

In your generation, there weren’t too many people that had been reared in the manner of your neighbor’s children; so the burden on you to support your neighbor wasn’t too great. However, as more and more people learned the “system”, the burden on your children increased dramatically.

As your children grew older, they became disillusioned at the values you had worked so hard to teach them. They saw that their neighbors were taking advantage of the “system” without making all the sacrifices they were making. When your children had children of their own, they no longer believed strongly in the values you taught them. It became clear to your children that the decisions and choices they had made no longer brought the rewards or the consequences they were promised by you.

Without strong convictions, your children rear their children to learn the “system”. Your grandchildren have become just like your neighbor’s children.

What will the outcome be for any society that creates such a “system”?

 

[riff]

Hey, Cheyenne. Good to see you still 'round these here parts.

Oh, and riff, it's not America that brings out the worst in people. It's America's success.

Qualify that statement.

 

[Laurel]

Re: Let me propose a hypothetical question

Let me propose a hypothetical question.

.....

What will the outcome be for any society that creates such a “system”?

Interesting question, Texan. I have a hypothetical question as well. Suppose you have a society in which moral guidance is provided (and rightly so) by the parents. The economy is such that even in a middle or lower-middle class household, one parent is able to stay home with the children full-time.

However, the government begins to tax the middle and lower classes while giving breaks to corporations and the high income brackets. They believe that this will stimulate the economy. However, without consumers there IS no economy.

Soon, both parents are forced to go to work in order to put food on the table. This leaves the children to find their own moral way - usually via their peers and the media. A whole generation of latchkey kids glombs their morals not from their parents but from "society".

After a while, parents begin to actually believe that it's "society's" job to rear their children. They begin to demand that the government censor the media. They begin to demand that schools teach their children about their religion, because they don't have the time to do it themselves. Instead of taking responsibility for their children, they shunt it off on "society". It's "society's" fault that our children aren't growing up properly. It's the Big Bad Government's fault for not instilling proper morals into our children's heads.

With both parents at work, the children struggle with issues like anger and self-esteem. Most kids figure things out reasonably well, but others are unable to cope and end up either taking their own lives or shooting their classmates. This too is deemed "society's" fault...Too many violent movies. Too many guns. Not enough security at the schools. Not enough religion in schools.

Children aren't stupid. They soon learn that they don't have to take responsibility for anything - they can blame "society". It was that violent video game that made me beat up my classmate. It was that porno movie that made me rape that coed. A whole generation of children grow up without any sense of personal responsibility, all because the parents had to bust ass just to keep the family alive.

What will be the outcome for such a society?

 

[Closet Desire]

A hypothetical question...

...usually has some foundation in reason and logic. I think Laurel wasn't the only one to pick up Texan's non-hypothetical question.

Maybe I'm wrong but I read it as a veiled suggestion that Texan is holding some sort of moral high ground and that once again his system is somehow better. Hmmm. I'm not English and there are plenty of things I don't like about the British system. On the other hand...it's been identified on this thread as a overly liberal, to the left, socialist etc.

Here's a few observations I've made since moving here. At least as many people have jobs here as in America and, in fact, the "system" has stricter requirements on recipients seeking jobs and training than the US.

Kids...they consistently outscore American kids on everything that gets taught in schools (Americans have for years scored at the bottom of the heap for some strange reason). A higher percentage of students starting university also finish than in the US. An English student will do in three years what takes an American college student four years to complete.

The kids I've seen here are more mature than their American counterparts, less likely to end up in trouble with the police, and more likely to get jobs. Of course, they aren't likely to go to church, but who cares if they stay out of trouble.

Taxes. I frequently hear that because Europe has different "values" we pay higher taxes to support those who abuse the system. As a businessman I can say that at the end of the day I'm not paying any more in taxes here than I was paying the US for taxes and health insurance (which is covered by the taxes here). I also enjoy lower insurance on my home and car because I'm less likely to be hit by a drunk driver or sued for some ridiculous amount by someone trying to use the legal "system" for gain.

Hmmm...by the criteria Texan seems to be using he/she should move to England.

 

[Texan]

excellent Laurel

You know, I agree with almost everything you said except one thing. Your second paragraph makes a false assumption that the government is overtaxing the middle and lower middle classes, when compared to "the rich" and "corporations". You also assume the breakdown of the American family is due to this over taxation.

In the U.S., the taxburden on the lower classes (I don't like the term "classes", but it is understood) is tiny, not counting Social Security taxes (which are, in theory, an individual retirement investment). The breakdown of the family (which I agree with you, is the root cause of the problem) is not caused by overtaxation of the lower classes (hell, they pay little or no taxes now), it is caused by a social welfare "system" which, for 30 years, has PAID families to break up. This is changing, thank goodness, but the legacy of illegitimacy and single parent families will remain for a long time.

I strongly believe that there should be a secure "safety net" against poverty in this country. I spend a lot of time in Brazil, and have seen what an otherwise prosperous country is like without some kind of social welfare system. Our disagreement may lie only in how extensive we each believe that safety net should be and where the responsibility lies for administering the necessary bureaucracy (states or national).

I believe there is a price that must be paid for the peace of mind that comes from knowing that noone needs to know hunger in this country. However, I believe that redistribution of wealth is a destructive force in a capitalistic society. Punitively taxing the PRODUCTIVE to support the UNWILLING is damaging to the motivation of a society.

It may take a wiser society than ours to justly distinguish between the genuinely UNABLE and the UNWILLING. This is the reason that I feel decisions about welfare should be made at the state level rather than the national level. It is not a simple problem and it will not have a simple answer. I know that I am very tired of paying more than half of my earnings to government in one form or another.

 

[Texan]

hello Closet Desire

Actually, CD it never crossed my mind to make the comparison between the U.S. and England in my "hypothetical question". However, my question was prompted by your earlier comments about "paying the peasants not to riot".

From your most recent post, it seems that England has done something that the U.S. hasn't been successful at, YET. You mentioned that your country has put "stricter requirements on recipients seeking jobs and training than the US. In my opinion, this is basically all we need to do. We need to "tune" or requirements here in the U.S. to make every effort to help those who truely need the help while strongly ENCOURAGING those who don't need the help to support themselves.

Back in the 1950's, the U.S. had one of the lowest divorce rates in the world. Then, in a benevolent effort to support the children of single women, we instituted a social welfare system which has, over time created a nation with one of the highest rates of illegitimacy in the world. I do not know the intricacies of welfare systems of other countries, so I do not know if England (and other countries) have made this same mistake.

There are those who would argue that America's welfare system was created by controlling Democrats in an effort to buy ethnic votes. I will not make that arguement because it isn't productive to solving the problem. What remains, however is a "voting block" of those in our society who are the recipients of government programs. These groups passionately fight against any attempt made to modify our welfare "system". They accuse system reformers of being "cold hearted" rather than acknowledging that changes need to be made or the system will collapse.

I know that this is somewhat off topic, and I appologize. It does go a long way to explaining why Americans (who love to express our dissatisfaction with our government) can have such strongly differing views of our own government.

 

[lavender]

Re: respectful reply to lavender's post

 

[CRaZy]

I have no wish to "bash Americans". I wish to reiterate that most peoples in the world have problems with your government and its policies, not the people. Unfortunately, it's the ordinary Americans on the street who cop the verbal lashing. I have been to coutries where I have had to wear "I am an Australian, not an American" T-shirt to avoid being lynched.

Other countries cannot respect a nation that manufactures land mines and other weapons for its enemies. They cannot respect a nation which puts pressure on smaller economies to allow free trade whilst maintaining embargoes and subsidies itself.

I like Americans and have had a great time with them in my travels. They are gregarious and generous. Unfortunately, they seem to allow an inordinate number of Americans who are very poor ambassadors to travel abroad.

I have seen:-

Americans who have insisted in sitting with their feet pointing at the Emerald Buddha (the highest insult you can give in Thailand) because "they can sit how they like - free world".

Americans who left a tour in Turkey and demanded their money back because it was 3 days since we had seen a McDonalds. "We were told this tour was CIVILISED," they spat.

Americans who walked up and poked the palace guards in London "to see how well trained they were".

The American Bob Dole supporters who sat beside us at a Maori Cultural Show in New Zealand and loudly proclaimed that the black people of the world felt that white man owed them a living.

People from other countries behave badly overseas too. The badly behaved Americans (and they ARE a minority) just seem to be so damn LOUD about it!! Can't you make them sit a cultural compatibility test before you sell their ticket?(said firmly tongue in cheek).

 

[Texan]

Crazy it's a universal problem

Crazy, I have seen so many badly behaved Americans in my travels and it embarrasses me too. However, as you say, it's not just Americans.

About a year ago, I picked up one of my Australian engineer friends at the airport in Sao Paulo. Since I don't drive in Sao Paulo, (I ain't that crazy) I asked a couple of my Brazilian friends to accompany me to the airport and to drive us back across the city to our hotel. On the drive across Sao Paulo, we passed some favelas (Brazilian slums). My ozzy friend grabbed his camera to take some pictures. Before he could be noticed from the front seat, I quickly grabbed his arm and gestured for him to put the camera away. Later, when we were alone, I told him that he could take pictures of the favelas only AFTER he had experienced some of the wonderful things about Brazil. To take those pictures immediately upon arrival would have been an insult to my Brazilian friends who are themselves not proud of that part of their country.

 

[CRaZy]

Well said Texan. Yep. I've seen Aussies behaving badly abroad too. And don't get me started on English and Scottish soccer fans. LOL.

As for all the excellent serious political debate that has taken place in this thread, there seems to be one common theme - America's dichotomy. America exhibits the very best and the very worst of everything in the developed world. It has the best schools and the worst. It has wonderfully innovative welfare policies and shocking policies which either breed more poverty or just apathy. It has trade agreements which genuinely help struggling nations and it has import policies which bring struggling nations to their knees. It exported the wonderful, witty Seinfeld to the world and it also exported Judge Judy.

I think the problem the rest of the world has is that America doesn't live up to the rhetoric that goes with the Statue of Liberty. No nation can fully live up to its ideals. It's just a bit scary when some Americans (and they are a minority) truly believe that America is perfect. It is even more scary when that image is exported to developing nations who actually believe it. I was sacked from the language school where I taught in Taiwan in the mid-80s because I told the headmistress that there were indeed poor people in America. She apparently had never seen one poor American person on any TV show and she assured me that she watched a lot of television.

A large nation such as the United States is bound to display incredible diversity in what it can deliver. It's a pity the government keeps sprouting the same cliches when global communications mean that the rest of the developed world can clearly see the contradictions.

 

[p_p_man]

I've just woken up...

...caught up with this thread.

It's really great to see so many diverse and articulate viewpoints but I'm now going to pull the whole thing back to the thread title and risk getting lynched in the process.

America's Image Abroad.

Well I think you'll find it's taken a helluva dive. Not just recently but over the years. Yes there was a time when you were the most powerful nation in the world and the rest of us didn't have a hope in hell's chance in catching up but also for years we have had to listen to and suffer the continuous rants on how you had the biggest and most powerful economy, how your judicial system was the best, how your democracy was whiter than white, how the American way of life was the only way, how you saved Europe in two world wars, how you "kick ass", how you give the most aid, how you had the best education system, how this was biggest and that was best.

Now the rest of the world listened to all this more or less in silence. The rest of the world didn't really care if you thought of yourselves in that way and as long as you only interefered with our lives in those areas we wanted you to interfere in all well and good.

In fact a lot of the world considered America as a country populated by a childlike people. Brash, egocentric, arrogant and... naive. There was a time when the rest of world would hear the latest exploits of your country raise our eyes to heaven and say "Yes but they're only Americans...".

Now we never thought badly of you we just accepted and put up with you as you would a growing child.

Now however we are seeing the spolt child emerging. Many posts on this thread are from Americans living abroad who have tried, in vain, to place a broader picture on this and other related subjects but I rarely see their view points answered in the manner I would have expected. The thread has just swung back to "We have the biggest....we are the best...etc".

Now that the rest of the world is progressing, and progressing rapidly, it seems to us that all this has come as a bit of a shock to America. Facts that the rest of us have known about for years; the huge foreign investment in your country, the advances in technology which has left America behind, the protection many of us have from intrusion of our privacy, your questionable judicial system, the political corruption, the fantasy that you can live without the rest of us and the fact that you no longer have the best manufacturing base in the world all seem to have hit a sour note with you, as though they are facts made up by the rest of us because we are "American bashing again".

The trouble is, you are not listening. Your day isn't over, not yet, but sunset is just around the corner and unless your country matures and starts noticing what's going on around you are going to be left further and further behind.

And then what?

America's image abroad.

Deep down I think we see you as a violent race who, when things are going well for you are the best friends anyone can have, but when a few home truths are pointed out you will lash out at friend or foe alike as long as you have your way.

Just like a spoiled child.

 

[lavender]

Re: I've just woken up...

 

[CRaZy]

Re: Re: I've just woken up...

I disagree with other points in your post, but I found this especially troubling. Before I begin discussing this I wish you would clarify your point. What makes the Americans a violent race?

You know that I am not fond of many things the Americans in general do, but this is one area where I will defend America to its dying day. Please explain.

Ummm..ya murder rate? The huge amounts of military expenditure? The proportion of gun ownership, legal and illegal?
At a personal level, would you spend an hour walking up and down any of your major beaches at midnight? I can do that where I live. I don't know anyone who has been carjacked. I don't know anyone who has been held at gunpoint. I only know of three suburbs in all of Australia where you might be a little intrepid to drive your car at night. Every American I know has been in an armed robbery/knows someone who has been in an armed robbery/has been threatened on a train/has a horror story about driving into the "wrong" part of town etc etc. We have crimes in Australia. Your chances of being violently robbed are insignificant compared to the United States.

 

[lavender]

 

[p_p_man]

violent race

Over the years:

Physical Violence (to name but a few)

The willingness to nuclear bomb Japan
The willingness to nuclear bomb Germany
The willingness to nuclear bomb Vietnam
The willingness to nuclear bomb Cuba
The willingness to nuclear bomb the old Soviet Union
The willingness to invade Grenada
The willingness to invade Sirra Leone

Non physical violence (to name but a few)

The McArthy Years
The Xenophobic attitude
The Civil Rights fight

Literotica (to name but a few)

The number of posts that detiorate into verbal abuse when debating something serious
The number of debates on the Gun Law

Civil Violence (to name but a few)

The number of murders and physical harm to human beings per annum
The obvious way rules are bent to win an argument/case/situation
The way it's OK if America does something but definately not OK if they're are beaten at their own game

and the general feel the American way of life broadcasts...

 

[lavender]

 

[p_p_man]

Violence

On so many of those points it is truly the pot calling the kettle black.

I'm not saying they're not.

All I'm doing is listing the violence in America as seen by the rest of the world.

As requested by yourself.

(Can I hear irritation in your post?)

 

[lavender]

 

[Problem Child]

Re: I've just woken up...

...caught up with this thread.
I've been trying to stay out of this thread because it just seemed to me to be a lot of US vs. them crap. I'm a little sick of all the America bashing in this thread, and even though you want to take the high road and deny it, that's all it is...slinging mud at a country that has accomplished more in a shorter time than any other.
Why should we be ashamed of that? Answer: we shouldn't.
We have problems, just like any country, and we are working on them. We are not perfect, but we are trying.

In fact a lot of the world considered America as a country populated by a childlike people. Brash, egocentric, arrogant and... naive. There was a time when the rest of world would hear the latest exploits of your country raise our eyes to heaven and say "Yes but they're only Americans...".

Now we never thought badly of you we just accepted and put up with you as you would a growing child.

This reeks of hypocrisy. Who is the arrogant one here?
A growing child? We across the pond are so grateful that you didn't think badly of us, and saw it in your heart to accept us. What would we do if you hadn't? After reading stuff like this, do you think maybe we childish Americans sometimes regard Europeans as snobbish?

Now however we are seeing the spolt child emerging. Many posts on this thread are from Americans living abroad who have tried, in vain, to place a broader picture on this and other related subjects but I rarely see their view points answered in the manner I would have expected. The thread has just swung back to "We have the biggest....we are the best...etc".

And how is what you are saying, especially below, any different? You are obviously of the mind that America is washed up, and we are about to be swept along in a new tide of European ascendance.
We have a right to brag a little. For all the various evil things that have been said about us, we have been the leaders of the world because we had to be. We picked up the pieces after the war, and kept peace on the continent for over fifty years. We still do the lions share of keeping the peace in europe and elsewhere in the world and take a leadership role when others won't. Would the war in Bosnia have ended if America hadn't been there? I fucking doubt it. Even though the mid-east is back to its old ways, the previous strides towards peace would never have taken place if America hadn't gotten the warring parties together. The next time war flares up in some part of the world, whose phone is going to ring, do you suppose?

Now that the rest of the world is progressing, and progressing rapidly, it seems to us that all this has come as a bit of a shock to America. Facts that the rest of us have known about for years; the huge foreign investment in your country, the advances in technology which has left America behind, the protection many of us have from intrusion of our privacy, your questionable judicial system, the political corruption, the fantasy that you can live without the rest of us and the fact that you no longer have the best manufacturing base in the world all seem to have hit a sour note with you, as though they are facts made up by the rest of us because we are "American bashing again".

What are you talking about, America being left behind? Who is on the cutting edge of everything, from computers, to medicine, to agriculture?

How is our judicial system corrupt? how many countries in the world even HAVE a trial system, giving the presumption of innocence to the accused. How many countries even have freedom of speech, freedom to protest and peaceably assemble, freedom from being searched without a warrant.

Why do you say we don't have the best manufacturing system in the world? Because we have labor laws and pay people a decent wage? I don't see waves of English cars flooding american highways, or French refrigerators in american homes. Wouldn't they be there if they were the best? The Japanese caught up with us in the manufacturing arena in the seventies, but now they are more or less equal with us, or even falling behind. We saw the mistakes we were making and corrected them.

You talk about political corruption, yet you were the one that posted a thread on corruption in the english political system only a few days ago. We have our scandals, and most of the time they are investigated, and if action is warranted it is taken. We had our watergate, and a president was forced to leave office. If you believe that the U.S. is the only nation on earth that suffers from political corruption, you are more naiive than i had previously thought regarding America.


The trouble is, you are not listening. Your day isn't over, not yet, but sunset is just around the corner and unless your country matures and starts noticing what's going on around you are going to be left further and further behind.

I'm listening to you, and I think you're full of arrogance and bluster. I hear someone who is jealous, and shows it with every post. You love to bash America, that's obvious.

~Please Nostrodamus, let me know when my country is finally going to go in the shitter so I can move to England and pay your tax rates and wait in line in your socialized medical system.

I'm not saying that my country is perfect by any means, but I certainly know we are not nearly the demons you make us out to be. We enjoy a certain way of life here, and some of it is great and a lot of it I would like to change. The great thing about living here is that in a great many ways we have the power to change things. Once again, how many people around the world have that right?

And then what?

America's image abroad.

Deep down I think we see you as a violent race who, when things are going well for you are the best friends anyone can have, but when a few home truths are pointed out you will lash out at friend or foe alike as long as you have your way.

Just like a spoiled child.

Well jolly for you.

*whines*

"Can we stay up to watch The Weakest Link tonight daddy? We really like that evil english bitch on there...can we pleeease?"

 

[Closet Desire]

yawn...

...nah...not bored...just got up. Lot's of juicy stuff overnight I see!

Problem child...you sort of highlight what many of us have been saying is a provencial view. We don't have American appliances in our homes because American's don't make a suitable product. The reality is that our kitchens are designed around the toaster and not the refrigerator. Consider that London alone has a population greater than most states (11,000,000) and that England is the size of Oklahoma with a population of over 40 million...our houses are tiny. Fridges, freezers, washers, and dryers have to fit under the counter in the kitchen. Still, you're deluding yourself if you think your appliances are US made. The compressor units in your fridge/freezers are just as likely to have come from Italy or even Russia. You don't see British cars but then again we don't see American cars in any great number either. Why? They aren't really suitable. The suspensions are too soft, we don't need drink holders because driving is too demanding, and, bluntly, they aren't fast enough. Besides, it doesn't really make much sense to buy something from across the atlantic when you can buy it from across the channel, does it?

Trial systems? You are kidding yourself again. With the exception of Louisiana, US law is based on English common law. Presumption of innocence, freedom of speech, right to gather? We do all those things without interference from the Godless authorities. In fact, some forms of expression are much freer here than in the US. Just having a Constitution that says it's so doesn't make it so or exclude other countries from having a culturally based enlightenment which is equivalent. Similar solutions to similar concerns and problems. Put simply, door hinges in America work just like the ones in England.

I am curious why you automatically go to extremes, speak in absolutes, and assume things that were never said. That's one of the contradictions about some Americans that participants on this thread have been talking about.

Crazy...

ditto...looks like we've seen it through the same eyes. I was in Leicester a couple of weeks ago, eating dinner in an Asian restaurant. It wasn't busy so I was chatting with the manager while we waited for our food. He told me about a group of Texans who had come in and "joked" about wanting to have some beef. When the manager politely explained it was against their religion the leader of the group laughed and all seven of them lifted their sweaters (jumpers) to reveal the head of a steer. They thought it was great fun to do what what was an abomination to the Indians working in the restaurant. Wonder what they would have done if Indians had walked into the Olive Garden on a Sunday afternoon with pictures of Christ upside down on the cross?

Fortunately I haven't had to make too many excuses because good manners always makes a good first impression and everywhere I've been I was treated rather nicely as an American and enjoyed some very stimulating political and social discussions. Still, I do wish I had button to wear on my lapel when I go to London that says "I'm not a fuckin' tourist...I live here!"

Hiya Texan...

I'm going there in three weeks...gonna lay on the sand in Galveston and roast like a lobster...I hope. A couple of things.

About working a system that controls who gets welfare benni's or not. There's a huge price to pay to administer such a system and, I've learned, the American approach is often to weigh the cost of a system against the losses. In business here I have often considered how much it will cost to make a problem go away rather than fight it out. It makes sound business sense in a perverse sort of way. To give you an idea of a regulatory system gone astray consider the TV License over here. Yep, that's right, we have to pay about £10 a month to have a license for a television even though we pay for cable. Now, I would guess that 99.9% of the households have TVs now so why bother with a license? Why not just add it into the other taxes we already pay? No, can't do it. Believe it or not, when you buy a television the record gets sent to some office where a clerk checks to see if you have a license (thankfully no five day wait or background checks...yet). If you don't have a license on file you get a nasty letter in the post advising you of the fines, up to £1,000. (oh yeah, they have vans driving around that look like something from the CIA to scan houses for TVs...I kid you not.). I bought a TV for my step-daughter and because the license isn't in my name I got one of these nasty letters. Of course, being the law abiding citizens that we are I produced the license for our household which is in my wife's name. I bought another TV a few months later for my step-son. This time I gave them a different address...1600 Pennsylvania Avenue...you 'spose Clinton paid the license fee? It is a case of bureaucratic regulation gone completely rabid don't you think?

So maybe they figure they are losing $10 million a year to welfare fraud and abuse but putting controls into place will cost $20 million. In a capitalistic system it's a pretty easy decision...let it ride, at least until it's more tenable.

About divorce...when I was growing up my grandparents not only slept in separate beds, but in separate rooms. I figured this was normal and that when I "old" like 40 or so, I too would sleep in separate rooms. My partner is a chartered psychologist who is widely known for her research and work in relationships. She says that rising divorce rates aren't really an indication that relationships are breaking down at a faster rate, only that it is now possible for people to divorce from both a financial and social perspective. Often, people stayed together not for the children, as is often stated, but because it breached too many taboos and was often economically not viable. In the case of my grandparents, as I later learned, my grandfather was carrying on relationships throughout their marriage. In retrospect is seems a bit asinine that the local Baptist church hosted their 50th wedding anniversary as a celebration of wedded bliss.

Teen pregnancy and illegitimacy. This does seem to be an area where Europe has the tiger by the tail. England has the worst record, but it is far ahead of the US and Canada. The only thing I can make out is that sex is discussed openly and frankly, birth control is readily available to women and men 16 and over, and there are few religious pressures to conform to some code of conduct. You could say that in refusing to accept that 16 year olds are sexual beings they are being condemned to the risk of pregnancy and parenthood at a young age...a sentence that they will have to serve the rest of their lives. Holland has the most liberal attitudes toward sex and young people. Surprisingly, they have the highest average age of first intercourse and the lowest rate of abortion and teen pregnancy. Makes one wonder doesn't it?

Well, heck gotta do some real work now...

 

[Ally C]

Re: Re: I've just woken up...

I'm a little sick of all the America bashing in this thread

I don't see it as 'America bashing', because I doubt that any criticisms made on this thread can be applied to America en masse. There's no need for any of us to be hostile just because our beloved homeland is on the receiving end. While I agree that it can be upsetting to be faced with lots of views which belittle your country, I think that the international community (here at Lit) should welcome and encourage different perpectives be they good, bad ot downright ugly.

I have to admit that I don't care for 'point scoring', which in my opinion does little more than let those involved play verbal tennis like two McEnroes refusing to believe that on occasion they may actually be at "fault". Entertaining to watch no doubt, but ultimately futile in terms of an adult discussion.

There is a difference between emotional replies and factual replies, and emotional factual replies. It's not easy to renegotiate our long held core beliefs, especially when this can be seen as 'being wrong'. There should be less shame attached to 'being wrong' (or not as 'right' as we'd like to think) about fundamental opinions which we hold dear. Indeed, 'being wrong' doesn't have to describe the outcome of a process where two or more competing views meet. There should also be a lot more effort made on all our parts to recognize that our own belief systems are anything but infallible, being as they are occurences of geographical chance.

we are trying.

Very ...

Egomania and ignorance must surely rule the rest of the world

All nations are capable of displaying these qualities.

Britan. Don't call us next time unless you're willing to be there in the bad times.

There's a movie called "Pearl Harbor". Go see ...

France, the next time the Germans come, they keep it. OKAY?

After all that the French did by entering the war of independence? And after all the good will established by American ambassadors to France such as Franklin and Jefferson?

I find it notable that in our global politically-correct culture that it's considered boorish and unenlightened to make sweeping generalizations about racial groups (e.g. "black people are like ____..." but it's still permissible to utter stereotypes about nationalities (e.g. Americans are egotistical, arrogant, and self-absorbed, etc.).

This might be a key element for understanding why we interpret different nations in a certain way. Unfortunately I lack the psychological tools to unlock the puzzle. I think America's image abroad was summed up on a TV show called "The Big Breakfast" several months ago. They had a game show where the two main presenters dressed up as an obese and loud mouthed American couple (who were tourists) who moaned at all things non American and were constantly wanting to eat. Although this isn't my view, and it certainly wasn't exactly cutting edge ethnography, it seems to be a function of the human mind to recognize 'otherness' by way of caricature. The difference can then be seen to be between those who rely heavily on such metaphysical 'caricatures' to arrive at their conclusions (in this case about the American abroad), and those who are capable of using their intellect to see beyond such generalizations. I laughed at the aforementioned TV show because it was so ridiculous it was funny; but I certainly didn't let it inform my whole way of thinking about anyone from America.