And now, a word from Bill

[neonflux]

No problem. Donne was a poet and a preacher who came a long a bit later than Shakespeare. I'm pretty sure you've probably read some of his work, but just don't remember his name.

He wrote religious work and more "profane" work and was famous for his use of the metaphysical conceit. In some poems, he's a downright dirty old perv. (Could that be why I like him so much?) His love poetry is my favorite, though. I'm including two of his most famous ones here.


A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning

As virtuous men pass mildly away,
And whisper to their souls to go,
Whilst some of their sad friends do say,
"The breath goes now," and some say, "No,"

So let us melt, and make no noise,
No tear-floods, nor sigh-tempests move;
'Twere profanation of our joys
To tell the laity our love.

Moving of the earth brings harms and fears,
Men reckon what it did and meant;
But trepidation of the spheres,
Though greater far, is innocent.

Dull sublunary lovers' love
(Whose soul is sense) cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
Those things which elemented it.

But we, by a love so much refined
That our selves know not what it is,
Inter-assured of the mind,
Care less, eyes, lips, and hands to miss.

Our two souls therefore, which are one,
Though I must go, endure not yet
A breach, but an expansion.
Like gold to airy thinness beat.

If they be two, they are two so
As stiff twin compasses are two:
Thy soul, the fixed foot, makes no show
To move, but doth, if the other do;

And though it in the center sit,
Yet when the other far doth roam,
It leans, and hearkens after it,
And grows erect, as that comes home.

Such wilt thou be to me, who must,
Like the other foot, obliquely run;
Thy firmness makes my circle just,
And makes me end where I begun.



(edited by Neon...)


Don't tell anyone, but deep down I'm a hopeless romantic, and I, for some reason, see these poems as a Dom(me) speaking to or about his/her sub. Donne, of course, wrote them for his wife. I'll be glad to post more if you like. Sorry to hijack the Shakespeare thread with stuff that's not Shakespeare, though!

Thank you, while I still love the Bard, the first poem, in particular, left me speechless... And I can see why you make the connection. I am definitely going to search out more.

~ Neon

 

[JMohegan]

a gentle bump and a promise to repond to the portia question (still haven't forgotten, LOL)

in the meantime, in the spirit of the thread and thinking about cats...

"I am as vigilant as a cat to steal cream."
William Shakespeare, Henry IV

Thanks for the bump, and the timely cat quote.

How the heck are you?

 

[JMohegan]

Just throwing in my favourite and probably one of the most well known of Macbeths soliloquys, on news of Lady Macbeths death

She should have died hereafter.
There would have been a time for such a word.
Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time.
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle.
Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

This is indeed genius, and truly timeless. In fact, I thought about this exact speech when responding to Shank's thread on suffering.

Thank you, Minx.

 

[neonflux]

Thanks for the bump, and the timely cat quote.

How the heck are you?

I am actually doing really well!

Work is good - am about to open a youth clinic that was planned and will be in part run by older teens, web work is going well (and getting more kinky clients, which is great fun), and am about to move in with the *gulp* man that I love utterly and am certain will be my life partner (he is more than worth the 50 years wait). I am more blessed than I ever though possible!

And how are you doing?

*hugs*
~ Neon

 

[JMohegan]

Oh, don't get me started on Shakespeare! I've been called obsessed before now. It's just...*gosh*. My personal favourite sonnet, which would have been read at my wedding had it happened:

"My mistress' eyes are nothing like the sun;
Coral is far more red than her lips' red;
If snow be white, why then her breasts are dun;
If hairs be wires, black wires grow on her head.
I have seen roses damasked, red and white,
But no such roses see I in her cheeks;
And in some perfumes is there more delight
Than in the breath that from my mistress reeks.
I love to hear her speak, yet well I know
That music hath a far more pleasing sound;
I grant I never saw a goddess go;
My mistress when she walks treads on the ground.

And yet, by heaven, I think my love as rare
As any she belied with false compare."

Really? You would have read a parody at your wedding? I actually think that's awesome. The last two lines here are fantastic.

 

[JMohegan]

well I'm off to bed, so in keeping with that theme and Bills 'obsession' with sleep and sleep disorders lol........

the innocent sleep,
Sleep that knits up the ravell’d sleave of care - Macbeth

Enjoy the honey-heavy dew of slumber - Julius Caesar

To sleep perchance to dream - Hamlet

O sleep! O gentle sleep!
Nature’s soft nurse - Henry iv

The clouds methought would open and show riches
Ready to drop upon me; that, when I wak’d
I cried to dream again. - The Tempest

*yawns* well can't think of any more...but bet there are loads


oh and finally, not sleep related.......

Look how the floor of heaven
Is thick inlaid with patines of bright gold: - The Merchant of Venice

just because I think its beautiful

That is beautiful. Thanks again, Minx.

 

[JMohegan]

No problem. Donne was a poet and a preacher who came a long a bit later than Shakespeare. I'm pretty sure you've probably read some of his work, but just don't remember his name.

He wrote religious work and more "profane" work and was famous for his use of the metaphysical conceit. In some poems, he's a downright dirty old perv. (Could that be why I like him so much?) His love poetry is my favorite, though. I'm including two of his most famous ones here.

Don't tell anyone, but deep down I'm a hopeless romantic, and I, for some reason, see these poems as a Dom(me) speaking to or about his/her sub. Donne, of course, wrote them for his wife. I'll be glad to post more if you like. Sorry to hijack the Shakespeare thread with stuff that's not Shakespeare, though!

Feel free to hijack at will! I'd love to read more - especially the dirty old perv stuff.

 

[JMohegan]

Geesh, I had to scour the 'net to find this speech.

http://shakespeare.mit.edu/

It's Emilia from Othello. Sorry, lol, it isn't romantic. But it's a fun one to deliver!

EMILIA
Yes, a dozen; and as many to the vantage as would
store the world they played for.
But I do think it is their husbands' faults
If wives do fall: say that they slack their duties,
And pour our treasures into foreign laps,
Or else break out in peevish jealousies,
Throwing restraint upon us; or say they strike us,
Or scant our former having in despite;
Why, we have galls, and though we have some grace,
Yet have we some revenge. Let husbands know
Their wives have sense like them: they see and smell
And have their palates both for sweet and sour,
As husbands have. What is it that they do
When they change us for others? Is it sport?
I think it is: and doth affection breed it?
I think it doth: is't frailty that thus errs?
It is so too: and have not we affections,
Desires for sport, and frailty, as men have?
Then let them use us well: else let them know,
The ills we do, their ills instruct us so.

Fun indeed, and quite apropos!

 

[JMohegan]

I am actually doing really well!

Work is good - am about to open a youth clinic that was planned and will be in part run by older teens, web work is going well (and getting more kinky clients, which is great fun), and am about to move in with the *gulp* man that I love utterly and am certain will be my life partner (he is more than worth the 50 years wait). I am more blessed than I ever though possible

Good lord, woman! You've been busy!

Is the clinic for medical care? Counseling? Recreation? Something else?

Congratulations on the pending co-mingling of living arrangements. Your optimism is wonderful! Do you mind if I ask if this is the guy you used to refer to as your "primary", or someone new?

 

[BiBunny]

Thank you, while I still love the Bard, the first poem, in particular, left me speechless... And I can see why you make the connection. I am definitely going to search out more.

~ Neon

You're quite welcome. I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees the connection. I Donne. Might I suggest "The Sun Rising" as another one of his awesome love poems?

And just for JMohegan...a dirty old perv Donne poem.


The Flea

Mark but this flea, and mark in this,
How little that which thou deny'st me is;
It sucked me first, and now sucks thee,
And in this flea, our two bloods mingled be;
Thou knowest that this cannot be said
A sin, nor shame, nor loss of maidenhead.
Yet this enjoys before it woo,
And pampered, swells with one blood made of two,
And this, alas, is more than we would do.

Oh stay, three lives in one flea spare,
Where we almost, yea, more than married are.
This flea is you and I, and this
Our marriage bed, and marriage temple is;
Though parents grudge, and you, we are met
And cloistered in these living walls of jet.
Though use make you apt to kill me,
Let not to that self murder added be,
And sacrilege, three sins in killing three.

Cruel and sudden, hast thou since
Purpled thy nail in blood of innocence?
Wherein could this flea guilty be
Except in that drop which it sucked from thee?
Yet thou triumph'st, and sayest that thou
Find'st not thyself, nor me, the weaker now.
'Tis true, then learn how false fears be;
Just so much honor, when thou yieldst to me,
Will waste, as this flea's death took life from thee.

 

[JMohegan]

And just for JMohegan...a dirty old perv Donne poem.

Ha ha, thanks!

The Flea

Mark but this flea, and mark in this,
How little that which thou deny'st me is;
It sucked me first, and now sucks thee,
And in this flea, our two bloods mingled be;
Thou knowest that this cannot be said
A sin, nor shame, nor loss of maidenhead.
Yet this enjoys before it woo,
And pampered, swells with one blood made of two,
And this, alas, is more than we would do.

Oh stay, three lives in one flea spare,
Where we almost, yea, more than married are.
This flea is you and I, and this
Our marriage bed, and marriage temple is;
Though parents grudge, and you, we are met
And cloistered in these living walls of jet.
Though use make you apt to kill me,
Let not to that self murder added be,
And sacrilege, three sins in killing three.

Cruel and sudden, hast thou since
Purpled thy nail in blood of innocence?
Wherein could this flea guilty be
Except in that drop which it sucked from thee?
Yet thou triumph'st, and sayest that thou
Find'st not thyself, nor me, the weaker now.
'Tis true, then learn how false fears be;
Just so much honor, when thou yieldst to me,
Will waste, as this flea's death took life from thee.

Ohhhh, man.

I'm picturing a sub, instructed to memorize this poem and then forced to recite it while the Dom does nefarious things to her with actual fleas.

[I wonder where you find them? lol....]

 

[BiBunny]

Ha ha, thanks!


Ohhhh, man.

I'm picturing a sub, instructed to memorize this poem and then forced to recite it while the Dom does nefarious things to her with actual fleas.

[I wonder where you find them? lol....]

*Snicker* You're an evil, evil man.

 

[neonflux]

Good lord, woman! You've been busy!

Is the clinic for medical care? Counseling? Recreation? Something else?

Congratulations on the pending co-mingling of living arrangements. Your optimism is wonderful! Do you mind if I ask if this is the guy you used to refer to as your "primary", or someone new?

Clinic is funded through a pregnancy/chlamydia prevention grant, but will also provide primary care to youth up to age 24 (in SF, most youth ages 18 - 24 aren't insured). In this neighborhood, where so many young people have loved ones (friends, family, classmates) who have been shot and even killed, mental health services and case management services are also important.

Yes, the guy is "my primary." And while extremely sexually adventurous, he really isn't kinky, perhaps with the exception of "light" power exchange (struggles with his own enjoyment of Dominance, but very much enjoys mine - something I think that a recent discussion might have helped with). He is amazing - not only accepts and encourages, but actually loves me for my kinkiness and the way I express it. Even without the kink, I have with him reached states that I can only compare to being in Top or bottom space.... I am unbelievably blessed!

 

[JMohegan]

*Snicker* You're an evil, evil man.

Thanks. I try.

 

[JMohegan]

Clinic is funded through a pregnancy/chlamydia prevention grant, but will also provide primary care to youth up to age 24 (in SF, most youth ages 18 - 24 aren't insured). In this neighborhood, where so many young people have loved ones (friends, family, classmates) who have been shot and even killed, mental health services and case management services are also important.

Yes, the guy is "my primary." And while extremely sexually adventurous, he really isn't kinky, perhaps with the exception of "light" power exchange (struggles with his own enjoyment of Dominance, but very much enjoys mine - something I think that a recent discussion might have helped with). He is amazing - not only accepts and encourages, but actually loves me for my kinkiness and the way I express it. Even without the kink, I have with him reached states that I can only compare to being in Top or bottom space.... I am unbelievably blessed!

All of this makes me smile. Impressive & inspiring on the one hand, and truly delightful on the other.

Thanks for the update, Neon.

 

[minx1]

Ha ha, thanks!


Ohhhh, man.

I'm picturing a sub, instructed to memorize this poem and then forced to recite it while the Dom does nefarious things to her with actual fleas.

[I wonder where you find them? lol....]

......well the soliloquy of Macbeths is my 'party piece'! *grin*

 

[intothewoods]

http://shakespeare.mit.edu/

Sweet! It's been a while since I've looked at Shakespeare, but I'm sure more of my favorites will come to me.

As a related aside, did any of you see the movie Richard III that came out around 95 or 96, I think? With Ian McKellan (I mean, Sir Ian)? I loved, loved, loved that movie.

Fun indeed, and quite apropos!

Lol - touché!

 

[neonflux]

...As a related aside, did any of you see the movie Richard III that came out around 95 or 96, I think? With Ian McKellan (I mean, Sir Ian)? I loved, loved, loved that movie.



Lol - touché!

Yes to the film - I love both the play and Sir Ian - also think his interpretation/film was brilliant!!!

 

[minx1]

I loved Kenneth Branagh in Henry V...
You have witchcraft in your lips, Kate: there is more eloquence in a sugar touch of them than in the tongues of the French council...
But then, I love him in anything he does.

Wow I love that Rose, thankyou. Am adding it to my favourites!

I often read my own meaning into the Bard's words *laugh*
I mean I will find ones that, taken out of context feel significant to my own circumstances.

I was watching a romantic(?) drama on tv the other day, that ended in an underground station in London. On the walls was a poem that ended in a shakespeare quote 'journeys end with lovers meeting'.

It made me think of my Master and the journey I will be making to meet him, although I think that this particular journey marks the start of another rather than the end. But I liked it and wrote to him about it.

God, mushy eh....lol

 

[SephStarr]

Really? You would have read a parody at your wedding? I actually think that's awesome. The last two lines here are fantastic.

Yes, indeed. We both love that sonnet, and it seems so fitting-neither of us are perfect, but 'yet, [we] think [our] love as rare as any belied by false compare'. You know?

The best man would have read it, probably. I still do want that at my wedding, if I ever do marry.

 

[neonflux]

NEONFLUX!!! You have been so missed!

thank you and so have you

 

[neonflux]

Finally, a response!!!

Yes, it is clearly anti-semitic. Shakespeare uses Shylock to mock the pompous and sanctimonious in his own society, but the goal clearly is to bring one down rather than to raise the other up.

As to your take on Portia's motivation, I have a very different view as to what it was. I understand why you would play her that way, and the appeal of her wit and triumph to modern women.

But to me, she reads like someone playing a game. True, she is brilliant. But what is her motivation for heading off to Venice?

Here's what she says in Act III, Scene 4:

PORTIA.
Come on, Nerissa, I have work in hand
That you yet know not of; we'll see our husbands
Before they think of us.


NERISSA.
Shall they see us?


PORTIA.
They shall, Nerissa; but in such a habit
That they shall think we are accomplished
With that we lack. I'll hold thee any wager,
When we are both accoutred like young men,
I'll prove the prettier fellow of the two,
And wear my dagger with the braver grace,
And speak between the change of man and boy
With a reed voice; and turn two mincing steps
Into a manly stride; and speak of frays
Like a fine bragging youth; and tell quaint lies,
How honourable ladies sought my love,
Which I denying, they fell sick and died;
I could not do withal. Then I'll repent,
And wish for all that, that I had not kill'd them.
And twenty of these puny lies I'll tell,
That men shall swear I have discontinu'd school
About a twelvemonth. I have within my mind
A thousand raw tricks of these bragging Jacks,
Which I will practise.


Call me crazy, but if my friend were in such dire trouble the very last thing on my mind would be a "thousand raw tricks" I could play on the opposite sex by cross-dressing and telling "quaint lies"!

Rather, I'd use whatever wealth I possessed (and Portia's got plenty) to find the most experienced and powerful lawyer around to argue on my friend's behalf.

My take on it is that her vain ruse is an intended and important part of the farce of the court scene and ultimately the message of the play itself. To wit, the voice of "Christian mercy" is a fraud.

First, I agree with you that the whole play is about hypocrisy, but that it encompasses not only Christian "fraud" but the "fraud" of the supremacy of the male sex (which is indeed a game), the hypocrisy of gender-based double standards (the promise of Bassanio regarding his wedding ring, al beit for an altruistic cause).

However, rather than seeing Portia as someone expressive of this hypocrisy, I see her as the pivotal character who reveals it throughout - from the first "game" that her father set up for her suitors to the last "game" of the ring. While a problem play, Merchant is a comedy. That every aspect of the plot plays out as a game I do not see as an indictment of Portia's character, but rather as a comic device.

Now to the crux of your argument about Portia's choice to defend Bassanio rather than hiring a lawyer. Why should it be a sign of lesser love that Portia take on the role of lawyer herself? She is smart, educated, accomplished - but would never have been allowed to practice law in that world except in the garb of a man. The fact that she delights in showing men up does not negate her confidence in her ability to take on the courts herself, and indeed she acquits herself well, perhaps better than your "accomplished lawyer" might have. (That said, in my "old age," I must also put some of her bravado down to the overconfidence of youth).

OK, it has been a long time since we last debated - hope this makes sense. If not, please ask for clarification and I promise to respond more quickly this time!

Neon

(gee, that was a long wait for a short statement, lol)

 

[LordHawk]

Ah, now I am going to have to dig out my Shakespeare book. Caught a booksale at the university bookstore and picked up a leather bound Complete Works of Shakespeare for a song. It includes the plays and sonnets. Unfortunately I've since moved from home and its still in storage at my parents house. Might have to bring something home from the library now that you guys have me on a Shakespeare kick. As an aspiring writer, I hope to be a hundredth of what he has accomplished.

 

[intothewoods]

Macbeth:
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.


Macbeth Act 5, scene 5, 19–28

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

He calls, and she comes. Anything that happens after that is just icing on the cake.

The hottest premise expressed so succinctly, in an entire body of gifted writing.

So pleased this thread was bumped, it was a joy to revisit.

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