Anyone one seen The Christ,

[KenJames]

Sorry to hear you think that way Ken. I never said to compar passages in a dozen different Bibles. Just pick one that you like and go with it. But not to worry. This isn't my thread anyway. So I'll leave you and Pure to debate amongst yourselves.

That's true, you never said to compare passages in a dozen different Bibles. Sorry to persecute you by making such a statement. You're persecuted enough here, anyway, aren't you?

You just hit people with massive slabs of Bible passages, interspersed with your own rambling commentary, most of which has little resemblance to what I was taught in my mainstream Protestant church.

The real problem is your condescending nature. You act like you have a direct line to God, and maybe you do, but I'm heartily tired to being patronized. You'd get further if you'd cultivate a little humility.

 

[KenJames]

I am not really interested in debating with you Pure. I am not interested in a battle of words where you'll use any tactic you ca to undermine the faith of the person in question. I am still on this thread because I care for all the people who are seeking. I want them to see my faith so they can add it up when they're making their own faith decisions.

Oh and Yes..I ditto KenJames in his sentiments..my sinful nature is the same as his*chuckle*

I don't think Pure wants to undermine people's faith as much as he wants them to examine it.

Perhaps God is so jealous that He denies Grace to the non-Christian majority of the world's population, but that just doesn't match my faith.

Thanks for the kind words. I appreciate you expressing your faith without putting the rest of us down.

 

[English Lady]

Ken....to be honest with you love. I think he just likes shit stirring but hey thats only my opinion *chuckles*

I think it is good to look at ones faith in detail but sometimes I tihnk Pure gets a touch over Zealous in his mission *chuckle*


I do try to be honest, genuine and not to get too steamed up. I think i manage that most of the time*LOL* It is good to be appreiciated!

 

[Pure]

Hi English Lady,

There are two positions that I believe to be illconceived:

A) Original sin; that a (human) baby is born morally corrupt (not just with the potential for immorality). This is standard Calvinist and Catholic doctrine. "In Adam's fall, we sinne'd all."

It's apparently said in the Romans' passage, in the idea of _through one man, sin and death entered the world_.


B) Gross (postnatal) corruption, apparently your position; that we do so many evil things that we're, in divine terms, suitable only for damnation. Every unkind thought, white lie, etc., added up over a life makes an insuperable burden of 'sin'; that, but for extraordinary measures, would damn every one. (stinking pile of rags quote from Isaiah)

C)The point B) is closely linked to the view that, prior to JC, God had put in place no adequate means to deal with this mass of sin (e.g., that prayer, sacrifice, repentance, restitution, and reconciliation with God--through the law and the prophets of God-- were simply not possible; were not happening) ; sort of as if He built a garbage dump and bought some trucks, but was overwhelmed by the volume of human garbage, and had to re think things.

As you know there are a number of Scriptural passages that deny
A, B, and C., the 'little apocalypse' being one of the best; the sheep are admitted to heaven based on having following a pattern set by JC. they aren't told either a) 'you're innately corrupt, who gives a f*** about your feeding the hungry'; or b) 'you're so far in the red from those bad thoughts about mom, as a kid, that your life's work in the leper colonies just doesn't matter.'

There are a number of other quotations, already posted, suggesting this, namely in 1 John, he who loves his brother walks in the light, and there is no stumbling. "if you keep my comandments, ye shall abide in my love." John 15:10

In general, all the passages stressing God's essential love and mercy support the view that A and B are not biblically founded, but reflect later agendas. The Book of Hosea, with its metaphor of marrying the prostitute (i.e., Israel) is apposite. God just doesn't desert for the ordinary raft of sins, as B suggests, given repentance, and 'change of life.'

The whole of ancient Judaism, in so far as it's valid--which Paul says it is, for Jews, and for their time before Christ at least--attests to the fact that C is false. There WERE adequate mechanisms in place; or, as DM has cited, and you know, some were saved: Moses was not told "Hey you disrepected your parents, and thought ill of the Pharoah, and so on; so go DOWN" He was apparently invited up to heaven, says DM.

I think you can see where this argument leads. The central atonement dogma is based on A or B or both; and C (insufficiency of Judaic prayer, ritual, repentance, reconciliation with God.) Remove them, and standard dogma hangs in the air; without foundation or rationale. Indeed, if you study John 16 and 17, Jesus' statements around the time of his impending crucifixion, you will note an absence of 'atonement' themes. In essence, I return to the father; I do not leave you; you are in me, and I am in you.

So that's it, in a nutshell, English Lady.

Best,
J.

 

[English Lady]

Ok getting to the nitty gritty.


Why then did Jesus come to earth, die and rise again if we human type things can get to Heaven on our own merits?


We sin. We sin alot. Everyone does. Even if you leave out the white lies(which you're so convinced aren't a sin anyway) we all sin in other ways pretty much all the time. The wages of sin is death. nothing that isn't pure can come into the prescence of God. I don't see hoe striving to do our best negates this.


I see you view. I do but I'm just saying the bits I don't quite grasp. Maybe my faith blinds me to your view but to be honest i'm quite thankful for that.


I am glad to know that it doesn't matter how badly I fuck up I am going to Heaven anyway. Because I am bound to fuck up majorly several more times before I die.

Do you believe you're going to Heaven Pure? Do you believe in eternal life with God or eternal damnation without? This might shed some more light for me on exactly what you do believe.

 

[Pure]

//we all sin in other ways pretty much all the time. //

Yes, but God was aware of this when the commandments and laws were given. Humans are imperfect.

Hence when Jesus said (in John)

14:22 KJV He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manfest myself to him.

he was quite knowledgeable he was dealing with human beings. 'keeping' is defined with reference to human capacities.

Had Moses, or Jesus, or JohnI, not believed this, they would have said, "here are commandments but you'll never keep them, being irredemably rotten."

{Sorry, interrupted}
You may say, what about the failings: Well, as prescribed in the OT, there's repentance, which isn't 'feeling sorry' or saying "God I'm sorry." but turning to a new directions {in the NT, "follow me"} ; there's making amends, there's opening oneself to God's grace and mercy known not to be withheld from those who truly live through 'walking in his ways.' (Deut 30: 10-16) As it says, Life and Good come to those who walk in his ways. and keep the commandments.

That's how the raftloads of sin are handled. That's why Abraham, and Moses, and David, etc, not to say Isaiah, Hosea, etc. were 'saved.'

What orthodox Christians, esp. the 'right' do, is often circumvent or shortcircuit this whole process by literally or figuratively bathing in the blood of the lamb, change of behavior, and treatment of other folks be damned. As you yourself say, it's sufficient to 'have faith' or 'accept Jesus, ' and--leaving you personally aside-- for a great many, this 'throwing oneself in Jesus arms', is, if sincere, momentary. The 'walk' continues as before, though the 'talk' may have changed (I'm born again).

 

[KarenAM]

This still confuses me. I still don't understand how an omnipotent God can find himself incapable of being in the presence of sin. Doesn't omnipotent mean he can do anything? If he is all-loving, why won't he acknowledge us imperfect folks?

And why condemn someone for what to we fallible human beings might be a minor infraction? Does a parking violation really deserve the electric chair, so to speak?

I always thought Jesus was trying to spread morality and set an example of kindness for us to follow. Isn't that why he spent his time with the outcasts of society?

I know that EL and DM have tried to address these questions for me, and I really appreciate your efforts, but I'm still confused. Sorry.

 

[KenJames]

Ken....to be honest with you love. I think he just likes shit stirring but hey thats only my opinion *chuckles*

I think it is good to look at ones faith in detail but sometimes I tihnk Pure gets a touch over Zealous in his mission *chuckle*

I do try to be honest, genuine and not to get too steamed up. I think i manage that most of the time*LOL* It is good to be appreiciated!

I have to agree that Pure seems to like a good argument. So do I, but I'm trying to cut down.

Edited to add:
To me, Pure is saying he rejects the concept of original sin and that the road to salvation is repenting sin, making amends and not committing those sins again. "Go and sin no more," as Jesus said. A person doesn't get a free pass into Heaven simply by claiming they've accepted Jesus. Hitler claimed to be a good Christian, but I doubt that he's in Heaven.

If that's his position, I share it.

 

[Pure]

Hi Ken,
I think you've got it pretty close, as to my views. But I do reject, beside 'original sin,' the softened 'overwhelming sin unto death/damnation' view, also; that's what I hear seemingly expressed by EL. As you know, I believe the Jews had a pretty good fix on these issues, Jesus included. Humans do have, so to speak, and tendency or possibility of evil. But the idea of a black taint from conception or quickening is hard to see.

Hitler's religion is much discussed; he was raised Catholic. He seems to have believed in some universal force, in his middle years. The Catholic church never excommunicated him. (You'd think if anyone deserved it....!) The problem is that politicians 'public statements-- like Deans on the importance of prayer-- are not reliable.

The general point is true, however. I object to the 'born again' badge as a 'guarantee' of anything; and to its being used as a license to sin (or do wrong, in secular terms). The whole 'faith' thing is much distorted, in the mainstream. As Belief. Another translation that's also apt, in many passages is "faithfulness"; and in following God faithfully; or showing faithfulfullness in carrying out the law.

Indeed, it's been argued that several NT passages recommending the 'faith in Jesus Christ' (in English) are in fact recommending that we follow the example of the 'faithfulness of Jesus' in following the divine will and commandments.

 

[KenJames]

Hitler's religion is much discussed; he was raised Catholic. He seems to have believed in some universal force, in his middle years. The Catholic church never excommunicated him. (You'd think if anyone deserved it....!) The problem is that politicians 'public statements-- like Deans on the importance of prayer-- are not reliable.

Whatever his true beliefs, Hitler made a big deal about being a "good Catholic," at least in the early years of his climb to power. I don't know if he was just being cynical or if his view of Christianity was so twisted he felt it justified his actions. Whatever the truth, I'm confident he's not in Heaven.

 

[KarenAM]

I did some research about Hitler several years ago. He seems to have regarded himself as a messianic figure whose purpose was to lead the "aryan" race (whatever that is) to its "rightful place" of world domination. He was a passionate romantic who saw the world as a Wagnerian drama with himself as its protagonist. I got the sense that he was incredibly creative but without any real artistic talent, combined with a frightening combination of semi-psychosis and uncontrollable rage. He was a brilliant manipulator of people and impossible to negotiate with, something that Churchill recognized, which probably saved England.

Hitler also loved his mother absolutely and was not, so far as we can tell, abused as a child (Stalin was). The photo we have of his body snapped moments after his suicide shows him clutching her picture. In fact, one of the things that is so terrifying about Hitler was the utter normalcy of his childhood; the only significant trauma I was able to find was the death of his brother at a young age, but in the pre-penicillin age this was not unusual.

A fascinating, terrifying, horrifying individual who was in the right place at the right time with a nation that was falling apart, and who created a hell on Earth that I doubt anyone's Satan could exceed.

NEVER AGAIN -- NEVER FORGET

 

[Pure]

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/sin

Original Sin

Just so we know what we're talking about in "original sin"; passages commonly cited. This concept, imo, is close to that is DM's position.



From _Easton's Bible Dictionary_)

M.G. Easton M.A., D.D., _Illustrated Bible Dictionary_, Third Edition, published by Thomas Nelson, 1897.

[start excerpt]
Adam's sin (Gen. 3:1-6) consisted in his yielding to the assaults of temptation and eating the forbidden fruit. It involved in it, (1) the sin of unbelief, virtually making God a liar; and (2) the guilt of disobedience to a positive command. By this sin he became an apostate from God, a rebel in arms against his Creator. He lost the favour of God and communion with him; his whole nature became depraved, and he incurred the penalty involved in the covenant of works.

Original sin. "Our first parents being the root of all mankind, the guilt of their sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature were conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by ordinary generation." [...](Rom. 5:12-21; 1 Cor. 15:22-45).

[...]

"Original sin" is frequently and properly used to denote only the moral corruption of their whole nature inherited by all men from Adam. This inherited moral corruption consists in, (1) the loss of original righteousness; and (2) the presence of a constant proneness to evil, which is the root and origin of all actual sin. [...]

It influences and depraves the whole man, and its tendency is still downward to deeper and deeper corruption, there remaining no recuperative element in the soul. It is a total depravity, and it is also universally inherited by all the natural descendants of Adam (Rom. 3:10-23; 5:12-21; 8:7).


The doctrine of original sin is proved, (1.) From the fact of the universal sinfulness of men. "There is no man that sinneth not" (1 Kings 8:46; Isa. 53:6; Ps. 130:3; Rom. 3:19, 22, 23; Gal. 3:22). (2.) From the total depravity of man. All men are declared to be destitute of any principle of spiritual life; man's apostasy from God is total and complete (Job 15:14-16; Gen. 6:5,6). [...] [end excerpt]

 

[Pure]

MEL IS JESUS

This little bit turned up in my email today.

======
Here is a true story by Paul Harvey. You will be surprised whom
this young man turns out to be. (Do not look at the bottom on this letter until you have read it fully.)

Years ago, a hardworking man took his family from the state of
New York to Australia to take advantage of a work opportunity there. Part of this man's family was a handsome young son who had aspirations of joining the circus as a trapeze artist or becoming an actor.

This young fellow, biding his time until a circus job or even one
as a stagehand came along, worked at the local shipyards, whichbordered on the worse section of town.

Walking home from work one evening this young man was attacked by five thugs who wanted to rob him. Instead of just giving up his money, the young fellow resisted. However, they bested him easily and proceeded to beat his body brutally with clubs, leaving him for dead. When the police happened to find him lying in the road, they assumed he was dead
and called for the Morgue Wagon.

On the way to the morgue, a police officer heard him gasp for air, and they immediately took him to the emergency unit at the hospital.
When he was placed on a gurney, a nurse remarked, to her horror, that this young man no longer had a face. Each eye socket was smashed, his skull, legs, and arms fractured, his nose literally hanging from his face, all his teeth were gone, and his jaw was almost completely torn from his skull. Although his life was spared, he spent over a year in the hospital. When he finally left, his body may have healed but his face was disgusting to look at. He was no longer the handsome youth that everyone admired.

When the young man started to look for work, everyone, just
because of the way he looked, turned him down. One potential employer suggested to him that he join the freak show at the circus as "The Man Who Had No Face." He did this for a while. He was still rejected by everyone and no one wanted to be seen in his company. He had thoughts of
suicide.
This went on for five years.
One day he passed a church and sought some solace there. Entering the church, he encountered a priest who had seen him sobbing while kneeling in a pew. The priest took pity on him and took him to the rectory where they talked at length. The priest was impressed with him to such a degree that he said that he would do everything possible for him that
could be done to restore his dignity and life if the young man
would promise to be the best Catholic he could be and trust in God's mercy to free him from his torturous life. The young man went to Mass and communion everyday and after thanking God for saving his life, asked only that God give him peace of mind and the grace to be the best man he could ever be in His eyes.

The priest, through his personal contacts, was able to secure the services of the best plastic surgeon in Australia. There would be no cost to the young man because the doctor was the priest's best friend. The doctor too was so impressed by the young man, whose outlook now on
life, even though he had experienced the worst, was filled with good humor and love. The surgery was a miraculous success. All the best dental work was also done for him. And the young man became everything he promised God he would be.

He was also blessed with a wonderful, beautiful wife, many
children, and success in an industry which would have been the farthest thing from his mind as a career-- if not for the goodness of God and the love of the people who cared for him. This he acknowledges publicly.


The young man was Mel Gibson. His life was the inspiration for
his production of the movie "The Man Without A Face." He is to be admired by all of us as a God-fearing man, a political conservative and an example to all of a true man of courage.

Mel Gibson has produced the movie "The Passion of the Christ." This is his way of thanking God for his many blessings. And it's also his way of showing us how Christ truly suffered. He's gotten a lot of slack from Hollywood for doing this movie. Please e-mail this to everyone you know. And go see the movie when it's released on Feb. 25th. It will
change your life forever

=====

===
see

http://www.snopes.com/glurge/noface.htm

Mel did, once sustain minor facial injuries. The rest is history. Or is it faith. I get confused.

 

[NoJo]

But, remember, MG said:

Greetings,
Having spent the past two weeks in the company of my Aunt Louise, I find myself thinking and writing like she talks. It's horrible. I think I'll write a detailed description of my trip from Sacramento to San Francisco, a la Auntie. I can get it out of my system and return to normal. First of all, it was not a simple 80 mile drive as you might expect. I mean, who would bother with a detailed account of a mundane auto trip west on I-80 for about 1.5 hours? There are very few points of interest, let alone scenic wonders, in places like Davis, Fairfield, Vallejo, etc. Moveover, who would want to read it? Nobody, I expect. No way, Jose. Please note that I'm not talking about any specific Jose, here. Not a Jose Garcia, Mendez, Trujillo, Gomez, Schmidt, or even Cabesa de Vaca. I make reference to the hypothetical or virtual Jose to whom everyone says no way on occasion. I hope that matter is now clear and behind us. I'm sure you agree. Of course you do. End of subject. Finito. No, our little trip from Sac to SF involved taking what you might call the long way around. And I do mean the LOOOOONG way. To be more specific, it involved going through the Panama Canal. Now I know there are easier ways to get from Sac to SF, but I think we agreed in the preceeding paragraph (had there been a paragraph)that such a journey borders on the ho hum. Ennui city, Dude. Of course we did. Well, that's enough about that. End of subject. Finito. John and I met at my parents' house in Sacramento. He arrived from the Philippines, and I came from considerably closer. In fact, so much closer that it hardly amounted to a trip at all. Compared with John's, I mean. Well, you knew that. Of course you did. You're like that. Perspicacious. I hadn't seen him in weeks (about eight), and I guess it is obvious that he had not laid eyes on me for about the same period of time. Of course it is. Obvious, I mean. We didn't have time for more than a nice hug and kiss and a little chatting before we were off on our way to San Francisco. Personally, I could have picked a more interesting way to wait for the bus to pick us up, but at least we were together. Of course we were, and I'm sure you understand. Of course you do. Well, the shuttle bus finally arrived to pick us up. We decided to do that rather than have Mom and Dad drive us to the airport. It would have kept them up until two Aye Emm, and they're too old for that. Forties, you know. Well, you probably didn't know that, but now you do. I'm too old for that, actually. Staying up that late, I mean. The bus was blue, but it was hard to tell because it was sort of dark. After all, it was ten o'clock Pee Emm at night. The bus was a diesel and the exhaust stank, as diesel effluent always does. The driver of the little bus was a woman dressed sort of funny. I don't remember exactly what she wore, but it was unusual. I didn't mind, though. I'm like that, you know. Tolerant. I think she may have been a little drunk, but so were most of the passengers. We were not. Not yet, at least, and I'll go into that later. Just hold your taters. The driver wore glasses. The bus wasn't very big, but it was okay. It was quite foggy that night, and Sacramento Airport is about twenty miles north northwest of the city. From Mom and Dad's place we went down Fair Oaks to Madison Avenue, then it was a straight shot north to Interstate 80. There's a huge interchange there, and eighty narrows down from five lanes to four, each way, or course. It's the shits sometimes, but it wasn't bad at that time of night, because there wasn't much traffic, partly because of the late hour and partly because it was foggy. I hope you appreciate the work I'm going to in order to supply you the details you want about this whole thing. I know you're detail-oriented, and I'm trying my best to satisfy your thirst for knowledge. You, of course, have the option of not reading it. I think the bus had a front end alignment problem, or possibly a square tire, because it shimmied quite a bit a freeway speed. High speed wobble, you know. Of course you do. Did I mention that it was foggy? Well, it was. Foggy, I mean. Not too bad, though, and we were able to maintain a pretty good speed as we proceeded west on Interstate 80, heading to where it intersects with Interstate 5. I'd say we averaged more than fifty miles per hour on that stretch, which is not bad considering that it was kind of foggy. Interstate Five is also Highway 99 in that area. That is where The Sacramento Kings play basketball, ARCO Arena. I've been there lots of times. I won a gymnastic meet there once when I was in junior high. I still have the trophy, if you'd like to see it. Might be easier to send you a picture, though, but you probably wouldn't be able to see my name engraved on the little brass thingie, and that would be a shame. The Kings are very good this year, and I think they will finally beat those asshole Lakers from Los Angeles. I don't like basketball much, though. The only interesting part is the last five minutes. Other than that, it's just a bunch of ni... guys playing basketball. My dad really likes it, though, and he and Mom have season tickets. Mom hates basketball, so Dad usually takes along one of his buddies to the Kings games. That way everyone is happy: Dad, Mom, and the aforementioned buddy de jour. They're in Section C, row 21. The seats at ARCO, that is. I don't remember the seat numbers, but I could find out if you're interested. Anyway, they're good seats, and they're on the King's end of the court every other quarter. I mean, they're on the good end in either the first and third quarters or the second and fourth quarters, depending on the direction the Kings are facing when they have the ball. Well, you knew all that, didn't you? Of course you did. It's not that way with college basketball, though, because they just play two twenty minute halves. Or is it "halfs?" Oh well, you know what I mean. If not, let me know, and I'll try to explain it to you. Better yet, call Rick Barry at KNBR, weekdays noon to three pee emm. I'm sure he would be glad to hear from you. Well, enough about that. End of subject. Finito. Where was I? Oh .. . We turned north onto I-5 (did I tell you that it's also Highway 99 in that area? Well, it is.). It's sort of a cloverleaf there, and you have to go around a lot to get from westbound on eighty to northbound on five (which is also ninety nine in that area). The van shook quite a bit on that long ewe turn, and I thought it might turn over. Those busses have quite a high center of gravity, and I don't think they're very stable in high speed turns. Well, we got onto I-5 (which is also Hwy 99 in that area) and it was really foggy. The American River runs through that area, and they raise a lot of rice out there. Rice requires a lot of water to raise. Did you know that? Well, it does. A lot. Anyway, there's a lot of water out there, and most of it seemed to be in the air that night. Fortunately there wasn't much traffic, but I believe I mentioned that. The airport is about twelve or maybe thirteen miles north of the edge of the city (and past ARCO Arena), and it was foggy all the way. By the way, ARCO stands for Atlantic Richfield Corporation, after whom it is named, and I'm sure it cost them big bucks to have it so called, if you know what I mean. Of course you do. It's really dark out there, except for the highway which is illuminated with numerous lights and things. Well, I suppose it isn't too dark in the daytime, but you never know. I saw the driver sneak a little bottle of vodka (it was Popov, the cheap stuff) out of her purse and take a swig. I don't think anyone else noticed, and I didn't say anything. I was sort of cold, even with John's arm around me, and I could have used a little nip of that stuff myself. The bus shimmied a lot on the way to the airport because the driver went faster there even though it was foggy (did I mention that? Well, it was.). Well, that's enough for now. Next time I'll tell you about the drive from the interchange where Interstate eighty becomes Interstate Five and Highway ninety nine. It was really foggy, and the bus sort of shimmied because I think it had sort of a front end alignment problem. It was blue. The bus, I mean. But I think I already mentioned that. End of subject. Finito.
Bye,
Me

 

[Pure]

Jeez, I thought Math Girl said,

I held the base in my hand and started kissing around the tip. As I explored, he would told me when I found a spot that was particularly sensitive and felt especially good when I licked or kissed it. He said most of the good feelings came from the head of his penis and just below it, especially on the side facing me. I licked that spot a few times like it was an ice cream cone, and he really loved that. It didn't take much exploring to get a pretty good idea of the best places to lick and kiss to give him pleasure. When his penis got really hard and big, the skin on the head was silky smooth and very warm.

What do others think? And tying it in to the thread topic, Would Gibson's Christ have benefited from a good b.j.?

 

[sweetnpetite]

I have explained my position, and beliefs on these issues already. I grow weary of your bludgeoning. But if you insist, I will do it here one more time. I believe: That Jesus Christ is my personal savior. I believe: That Jesus Christ is God incarnet; ie the son of man, and the son of God. I believe: That Jesus Christ was crusified, and died on the cross, to atone for the sins of all of mankind, past, present, and future. I believe: That Jesus Christ arose to live again, and forever, proving his mastery over sin, death, and damnation. And I believe: That Jesus Christ now sits at the right hand of God in judgement of all mankind. That's what I believe, Pure. That is my faith as a brother in Christ, and that is why I call myself a Christian.

As Always
I Am the
Dirt Man

Dirtman, although this is directed at Pure, I would like to appologize, because, I am the one who brought it up, and it doesnt' really belong on this particular thread. Fascinating topic otherwise though, Pure if you are interested in exploring it further, I would suggest starting a seperate thread, feel free to transplant my posts if you'd like. Again, DM, I apologize for the part I played.

 

[KenJames]

Dirtman, although this is directed at Pure, I would like to appologize, because, I am the one who brought it up, and it doesnt' really belong on this particular thread. Fascinating topic otherwise though, Pure if you are interested in exploring it further, I would suggest starting a seperate thread, feel free to transplant my posts if you'd like. Again, DM, I apologize for the part I played.

Sweet, I don't think you need to apologize. Given the topic of this thread, it was inevitable that beliefs would clash, sometimes violently.

As for the discussion not belonging on this thread, it's not nearly as off-topic as I've seen a lot of threads go.

 

[Pure]

Hi Ken and Sweet,
I think one must expect to find 'professions of faith' in this sort of thread. "I believe that Muhammad is the Best Loved of Allah's prophets." "I believe Mary was conceived without original sin."

The topic, however, was the movie, and its underlying message, which a lot of non evangelists think is:

that lots of sadistic torture adds to Jesus's credibility;

that lots of bloodshed will enhance appreciation of His Blood and the wonders it works; and

that believer's seeing the graphics in slow motion will enhance their worshipful realization of what Jesus underwent for 'us.'

Scripture pastings and speeches of profession, then, are often more to 'witness' or evangelize that to converse and discuss, and those who do so, esp. those who don't listen much, are naturally going to see a few tomatos come flying by. Of course we all strive to be minimally polite, even this irrascible servant of the Spirit (or is it the Shining One, I get confused).

PS Sweet, I'm not quite sure of your suggestion-- another thread for Christian faith and dogma? I don't mind, but I'd like this thread to stay on the movie and its central method and message. Esp. since its clever marketing has made it one of the largest grossing films in history.

Anyone think it's going to heighten Christian's feelings of being 'persecuted for his Names' sake' and hounded by governments that are trying to throw out the 10C in schools?

 

[Boota]

I finally saw the movie. I found it to be nothing special. It's Rocky for Christians. The only thing missing was Jesus coming down off the cross and screaming, "Magdalene! I did it!"

I do understand why the Jewish leaders have been upset by it. The Jews opposed to Jesus are portrayed as cackling, ravening caricatures. Everyone supportive of Jesus is shown as solemn and thoughtful. It is pure propaganda, and I do feel that anti-Semitism was a driving force behind this approach. When I first heard the stories of the Jewish community being upset about it, I assumed that they were being overly sensitive, which is the standard knee-jerk reaction to everything these days. Now I think they were right to be angry. Death threats and violence against Jews and synagogues have dramatically increased since the release of this film. It may not be Mel Gibson's fault, but I feel it was irresponsible of him. The only book I feel that could be made into a movie and come off as more anti-Semitic would be Mein Kampf.

This movie makes Pontius Pilate look like a hell of a guy. I'm not sure I understand the apologist approach to his portrayal.

If Jesus didn't just die outright from the scourging as administered in this movie, which I believe any human would have, he wouldn't have even been able to stand up, much less drag his cross. The wounds and the blood loss from the scourging should have been enough to kill him many times over. The make-up effects and torture scenes in the PotC were little more than a large budget Faces of Death film. They say Mel Gibson's hands were substituted for the close ups of when Jesus is crucified, showing the nails going in. I think substituting his hand in the close up of the hand holding the hammer would have been more appropriate.

In total, I see it as bad movie given significance merely through the blind faith of the masses. Poorly written, morally simplistic, and blatantly hateful. Standard religious fare. Good cinematography, though.

 

[NoJo]

I do understand why the Jewish leaders have been upset by it. The Jews opposed to Jesus are portrayed as cackling, ravening caricatures. Everyone supportive of Jesus is shown as solemn and thoughtful. It is pure propaganda, and I do feel that anti-Semitism was a driving force behind this approach.

Sounds like Mel was pretty faithful to the book.

 

[Pure]

(note to Boota)
Hi SJ: Well, the book doesn't have the details of the scourging or its length, but yes, pretty close.

Ever met a Jew who liked the Gospel of John? -- a favorite of generations of Christians including many of my 'sect'--a Gospel of Love. A glorious book in its nonhateful passages.

One thing I've learned in this discussion, though, is that at least it's not saying there's 'blood atonement'**. (Maybe that was too 'Jewish' a concept for the author of GJohn!)

It indicates that the evil folks wanted him done in--since he witnessed to the Truth--, and it was gonna happen; the main benefit being [not 'washing in the blood' but] the arrival of a Comforter, Counsellor(Paraclete) or Spirit of Truth who will provide 'spiritual knowledge or insight , unavailable until after Jesus' death and resurrection.' (ABD)


====
Boota: That was one helluva fine review.!!

**I don't read 6:53, one of the few 'blood' passages in that way.

 

[Boota]

Sounds like Mel was pretty faithful to the book.

In spirit, I agree he was faithful to the book. According to the story it is exactly how things happened. (I don't believe the Bible, but I know the story well. I come from a long line of Sunday School teachers.) I just saw no necessity, or even artistic purpose, for turning the "evil Jews" into cartoons. I feel it hurt the movie. I would not have been surprised at all to have seen one of them twirling his handlebar moustache and laughing maniacally. (There was a bit of over the top maniacal laughter. Some of it mine when I saw how this subject was being handled.)

His use of Satan throughout the movie was a bit ham-handed, too. It made little sense and was only put in for the creepiness factor.

Pure, glad you liked my review.

 

[Pure]

boota,

i've asked this before, but is it true the jewish kids morph into little goblins or satans?

also, on the question asked before. does Mary (i forget which) drink JC's blood; take it onto or into her mouth, etc.

His use of Satan throughout the movie was a bit ham-handed, too. It made little sense and was only put in for the creepiness factor.

Next you'll be saying you don't think Satan is out and about and very busy working against the re-election of Bush and for the installation of more godless supreme court justices who want queers to have licensed, conjugal bumfucks on the steps of the whitehouse.

 

[Boota]

Pure,

The Jewish kids do morph into goblins, or just have goblin-like features. You remember the part in the Bible where the goblinesque Jewish kids chased Judas from the town and out to the tree where he could hang himself as Satan walked beside them? No? Mel Gibson does. LOL.

I didn't see Mary get his blood in her mouth, but she did kiss his feet which were covered in dripping gore. There are some smudges on her face, but I didn't see her drink it. She might have.

I know Satan is behind George W. Bush. That is the only explanation i can think of. LOL. As far as gay marriage, I don't think so. That would be in the form of making people happy and Satan isn't supposed to be for that.

 

[Pure]

No, I forget the part about the kids chasing Judas. But I never know which of the Judas accounts to believe; in one he throws himself over a cliff; in another he falls and his bowels come out; in another he hangs himself. the fundies tell me all three happened and that musta been a *very bad day for him

In GJohn, JC does talk of drinking his blood, so ... just wondered.

And there's clearly a drinkable amt around, I gather.

(Ever seen the spilled mushroom soup scene in 'The Great Santini.)