Asking for it

[DrDelirium]

Huh? I don't see how there can be confusion unless you've been stored in ice for the last few years
"The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.” link

Maybe its the word consent that some folks have a problem with? Without consent it's rape. Of course proving the lack of consent between two adults has to be case by case, lawyer by lawyer and a stream of interesting and illuminating anecdotes will not progress this argument further.

You 'Huh?' and then you support my point. A legal definition is a good starting point for discussion, and- because consent is a critical element of that definition and consent 'has to be argued case by case, lawyer by lawyer," disagreements about what constitutes consent equal disagreements about what constitutes rape.

 

[stickygirl]

yea... your threw with paradigm - that always makes my head spin

 

[IrezumiKiss]

"The phone rang. It was my college rapist."

Jen Sorensen

3/10/15 7:00amFiled to: VOICES

As told to Jen Sorensen by Anonymous

In November 2014, not long after the Bill Cosby rape allegations blew up in the news, a friend of mine reached out to tell me her own story of sexual assault and asked if I would draw a comic about her experience.

The friend, whom I’ll call Alison, was assaulted after unknowingly ingesting some sort of tranquilizing agent during her senior year at college in the early 1970s; she was 21 years old. Alison says that her goal in telling her story is not to incriminate her assailant but to raise awareness about what she calls "an insidious problem of powerful men who think they can get away with abuse." Although some details have been changed to protect identities, I have tried to tell Alison’s story in her own words as much as possible.—JS

http://splinternews.com/the-phone-rang-it-was-my-college-rapist-1793846217

 

[MistressMoira]

No slut shaming. Just no.

By definition rape is not asking for it.

 

[HisArpy]

The problem is two-fold.

1. Women forget that ONLY social constructions prevent them from being victimized by those stronger than themselves.

For instance, I don't go walking alone in the dark in bad neighborhoods with $20 bill hanging out of all my pockets. If I did that, either I'm too stupid to keep my money or I'm looking for something. Because only social conventions keep people from bashing me over the head and robbing me.

2. Women are considered the "universal victim" because not all people (men OR women) will obey the laws which create those social constructions I mentioned above that are there to protect women from being brutalized by those stronger than they are. However, expecting someone to "leave you alone" when you voluntarily put yourself at risk is exceedingly stupid because those who don't obey those social limitations don't care about you or the limitations.

Your example is an illustration of "she was looking for it" because she didn't put into practice what most people understand. Prey is prey whether they want to be or not.

This doesn't mean I advocate rape or sexual assault. I don't because I follow social construction norms. What I mean is that if someone like the character illustrated above DOESN'T then anyone who chooses to be an easy victim will become an easy victim.

If this actually happened to you or someone you know, my sympathies to you or your friend but learn from it and move on with life.

 

[stickygirl]

Ok listen up.
The OP is not where this discussion has gone: the question is not whether she acted stupid or that he was wrong - both are true. I never mentioned rape did I? I said assault.
I was looking at the contradiction of giving women advice to be confident, be yourself, wear what you want on the one hand and the common sense advice of cover up, don't go out alone and don't get drunk on the other. I know it's a stretch in discussion terms, but some of you are parents, maybe parents of daughters, so maybe you've given both sides of that advice coin?

 

[adrina]

Do/don't do all of these things to avoid being raped.

Get married. Don't get married.

Don't go out. Don't stay at home.

Don't go to work.

Don't use public transportation.

Always carry a gun. Never carry a gun.

Ad fucking nauseum.

Wow it sounds easier to teach people not to rape. What a concept. For the asshat a couple posts above who assumes women only get raped by going out at night or by being in the wrong neighborhood, you are woefully ignorant about rape. Perhaps you should keep your pearls of wisdom to yourself until you can be sure they are commiserate with reality.

 

[stickygirl]

Thanks Adrina - that needed to be said
plus
the virgin v whore thing

 

[adrina]

Thanks Adrina - that needed to be said
plus
the virgin v whore thing

You're welcome.

I thought so too.

And agreed.

 

[f2k]

Ok listen up.
The OP is not where this discussion has gone: the question is not whether she acted stupid or that he was wrong - both are true. I never mentioned rape did I? I said assault.
I was looking at the contradiction of giving women advice to be confident, be yourself, wear what you want on the one hand and the common sense advice of cover up, don't go out alone and don't get drunk on the other. I know it's a stretch in discussion terms, but some of you are parents, maybe parents of daughters, so maybe you've given both sides of that advice coin?

I honestly can't see the contradiction. A woman is free to do whatever she wants, but there might be consequences to it.

Everything we do has consequences. A man is free to go to work looking like a bum, but he might not have a job very long. A man is free to walk through a poor neighbourhood while displaying his wealth, but he might not have that wealth very long. Etc... Does that mean that assaulting a woman or robbing a man is okay? Of course not! But sadly, that's the kind of things that happen.

 

[adrina]

I honestly can't see the contradiction. A woman is free to do whatever she wants, but there might be consequences to it.

Everything we do has consequences. A man is free to go to work looking like a bum, but he might not have a job very long. A man is free to walk through a poor neighbourhood while displaying his wealth, but he might not have that wealth very long. Etc... Does that mean that assaulting a woman or robbing a man is okay? Of course not! But sadly, that's the kind of things that happen.

So what do 20% of women, and over 25% of black women do that causes their rape? Since our actions have consequences. Surely since you are so sure of yourself you know what these vast numbers of women are doing wrong.

Ironically however the overwhelming vast majority of rapists face no consequences for their actions.

 

[f2k]

So what do 20% of women, and over 25% of black women do that causes their rape? Since our actions have consequences. Surely since you are so sure of yourself you know what these vast numbers of women are doing wrong.

Ironically however the overwhelming vast majority of rapists face no consequences for their actions.

Where did I say the did anything? I simply pointed out that there was no contradiction between saying that you're free to do as you please and saying that you should keep in mind that there's a consequence to your actions. And stickygirl did just clarify that she wasn't talking about rape so...

But what could a woman, as a theoretical case, do to deserve a rape? Well... How about leading a man along? Flirting with him, letting him buy her drinks, dressing in the most minimal clothing, ending up drunk and inviting him to follow her home and into her bedroom...

But then again, is that truly a rape? She'd say yes, he'd say no. And then what?

Is it common? Thankfully not, but it does happen. Sometimes a woman - or a man, for that matter - has a bit too much to drink, let things get too far, and ends up regretting it afterwards.

As for the no consequences, you can thank our sense of justice for that. You have to prove that the man - or the woman in a few case - is guilty. And when it's word against word and both were drunk... Well... It's somewhat hard to prove guilt beyond doubt then. It's unfortunate, but that's the way it is. And before you start complaining too much about that, keep in mind that the mere accusation of rape can do a lot of damage to a man's life. And that has been used by vengeful women on multiple occasions. Having an uphill battle to prove a rape sucks for women, I'll gladly admit that. But I'll have to say that, as a man, I'm grateful for that extra layer of protection.

 

[adrina]

So only women that do those things get raped? And further if they do those things they deserve to be raped. Gotcha.

Would you like a shovel to help you keep digging?

I've never been a big proponent of "rape culture" but you seem to be doing your damnedest to convince me.

 

[f2k]

So only women that do those things get raped? And further if they do those things they deserve to be raped. Gotcha.

Would you like a shovel to help you keep digging?

I've never been a big proponent of "rape culture" but you seem to be doing your damnedest to convince me.

You keep putting words in my mouth. Where did I say that these were the only cases where women got raped?

Oh right... I didn't...

You asked a question and I offered a hypothetical answer. Nothing more, nothing less...

 

[adrina]

I hate to repeat myself especially for someone that seems to be missing some basic facts. So I'll just repost this and see if it alters your perspective on your words and their implications.

Do/don't do all of these things to avoid being raped.

Get married. Don't get married.

Don't go out. Don't stay at home.

Don't go to work.

Don't use public transportation.

Always carry a gun. Never carry a gun.

Ad fucking nauseum.

Wow it sounds easier to teach people not to rape. What a concept. For the asshat a couple posts above who assumes women only get raped by going out at night or by being in the wrong neighborhood, you are woefully ignorant about rape. Perhaps you should keep your pearls of wisdom to yourself until you can be sure they are commiserate with reality.

 

[stickygirl]

So only women that do those things get raped? And further if they do those things they deserve to be raped. Gotcha.

Would you like a shovel to help you keep digging?

I've never been a big proponent of "rape culture" but you seem to be doing your damnedest to convince me.

Here ya go

Is it common? Thankfully not, but it does happen. Sometimes a woman - or a man, for that matter - has a bit too much to drink, let things get too far, and ends up regretting it afterwards.

As for the no consequences, you can thank our sense of justice for that. You have to prove that the man - or the woman in a few case - is guilty. And when it's word against word and both were drunk... Well... It's somewhat hard to prove guilt beyond doubt then. It's unfortunate, but that's the way it is. And before you start complaining too much about that, keep in mind that the mere accusation of rape can do a lot of damage to a man's life. And that has been used by vengeful women on multiple occasions. Having an uphill battle to prove a rape sucks for women, I'll gladly admit that. But I'll have to say that, as a man, I'm grateful for that extra layer of protection.

It's a shame that we have to wait for your generation to die before we can move on - your opinions are so entrenched, you are so convinced of your truths, that there's little hope of changing society, despite what the law advocates.
In case you're not sure of what the law says or what consent is, here's a link

You're welcome

 

[adrina]

Here ya go

It's a shame that we have to wait for your generation to die before we can move on - your opinions are so entrenched, you are so convinced of your truths, that there's little hope of changing society, despite what the law advocates.
In case you're not sure of what the law says or what consent is, here's a link

You're welcome

It is getting a bit insane at this point isn't it.

 

[stickygirl]

It is getting a bit insane at this point isn't it.

and suspiciously trolly

 

[Beth87]

rape Is not a reasonable response to lack of attire/being drunk/being flirty then not wanting sex.

If any of those things make you feel entitled to someone's body then get help. At the very least you have some entitlement issues to work through

 

[RobDownSouth]

As an aside, I was gobsmacked to find out that, regardless of legal definition of rape in Utah, Brigham Young University refused to consider a rape claim made by one of its female students unless there was physical evidence that she had fought back (blood, scratches, etc). They had this policy in place until 2015.

 

[stickygirl]

I don't quite understand US university rules as they seem autonomous and sometimes pretty awful - Stanford, Steubenville...

Advice I would give a daughter would be to avoid those universities that have that frat-jock reputation

 

[oneblueye]

I hope this is suitable for the lounge...
So here's the dilemma: a girl goes out in the evening showing lots of leg in a short skirt and T, she goes to a club, a guy comes up to her on the dance floor, they do a couple of dances, nothing smoochy just fun before she heads to the bar, he hits on her and gets pushy, she leaves but finds the taxi stand empty and decides to walk home. He follows, starts calling her names - "tease, frigid, whore ( usual stuff )" and assaults her.
So... should she have dressed more modestly, was she asking for it?
On the one hand, why shouldn't she wear what she wants and do what she wants? After all, every Saturday night girls go out dressed to the nines. On the other, common sense: wear a sack, go nowhere alone, get a taxi home (assuming the driver doesn't assault you instead). The advice is contradictory, frequently given and I can't resolve it.

A girl should be able to wear or NOT anything she wants that's makes her feel good, WITHOUT fear or assault.
Unfortunately that isn't the world that we live in---, this is where your 2nd Ammendment Rights sure come in handy

 

[Zenful_Intentions]

I don't quite understand US university rules as they seem autonomous and sometimes pretty awful - Stanford, Steubenville...

Advice I would give a daughter would be to avoid those universities that have that frat-jock reputation

All colleges, except maybe community colleges, have that "culture" to one degree or another. The good thing is that Greek life is starting to be forced into becoming more accountable. More frats are getting kicked off campuses and more universities are considering putting an end to greek life altogether because, if for no other reason, they don't want the legal and PR headaches. Colleges are getting pretty aggressive in prosecuting conduct cases that involve sexual misconduct as well.

 

[Hypoxia]

All colleges, except maybe community colleges, have that "culture" to one degree or another.

The community colleges I'm familiar with definitely grew distinct cultures. Suburban schools were almost extensions of local high schools and carried that vibe minus the jock-worship (because the serious jocks went elsewhere). Schools in desert towns and beach towns, where little was worn in summer, didn't foster rape culture that I saw, and had their own vibes. Urban JCs seemed trade-school or pre-university, again without jock-worship.

Jocks and Greeks seem to be the disease vectors of rape culture. Are star players taught to expect sex as a reward for their prowess? Seems like...

 

[LENTINUS]

Unfortunately that's the world we live in. I'm a guy who is not the easiest target based on appearance, but I too have to use common sense and stay aware of my surroundings when out at night, not showing off any items that might be of interest to someone interested in robbing me, etc. Women are just an easy target to idiots.

But we will never get to the point where a woman can expect to walk around practically naked and not attract any unwanted attention, and as I explained above, that is not strictly a gender issue. It is recommended to have someone in your company if you're outside at night in a clubbing outfit, and I think most women usually are accompanied by their friends, or at least some guy she was actually interested in bringing home from the club.