Bernie!

[UrbanBohemian]

USA spends more per capita on healthcare with worse results than nations who manage their systems better. Doesn't help that USA providers siphon-off close to 20% of healthcare dollars for executives and stockholders.

Other nations manage to provide education and healthcare. Is USA too stupid to learn what works?

Too stupid? No. Too corrupt? Yep. That's the one. There are too many people getting rich off the system we have now. And that may actually have a lot to do with our culture. Think about what the "American dream" is. It used to mean having a family and a career. Then later it morphed into owning your own home and at least one car. Then they just dropped the pretext and it became getting rich. So as an American we're told our goal should be to amass as much wealth as possible. Not be happy, not make the world a better place, not help others, get rich. We're trained up to make that our one and only goal from a very young age. Tell the average American they didn't earn what they have in life and you'll most likely see them get VERY offended. How many times have you heard someone say "I haven't been given anything in life?" Or "I earned everything I have?" Well, really? Have you driven on roads? Used public transportation? Shit in a toilet connected to an indoor plumbing system feeding into a sewer? Did you attend school? Do you use money? You do participate in a currency-based exchange system, do you not? You exchange federal promissory notes for goods and services, I assume. You expect to walk down the street without being robbed, raped, or killed because there are laws that disincentivize those actions, right?

And yet, that just doesn't get through. Because we believe we're not supposed to be given anything and gaining wealth is a noble enterprise that is our duty as Americans. That mentality is a big part of why we want to keep those structures in place. Fear of change is a big part of it too (for example, look how threatened people are by social justice) but we're told that rich people deserve to be rich and poor people deserve to be poor. That's why so many people will rant and rave about me when I say it's fucked up that I don't get enough money to pay my rent, keep my lights on, buy clothes, get medical care, and eat because I have a disability and can't work but they'll passionately defend multibillion dollar corporations and billionaires when they whine and cry about paying some fucking taxes to help run the system that enabled them to gain their wealth in the first place. It's all related and there's a definite pattern here.

So I think getting rid of the "get rich or die trying" mentality is a big part of changing how myopic people are about this. Are there drawbacks to socialized education, medicine, etc? Yes. Of course. But there are a hell of a lot more drawbacks to what we have now and until we can get people to understand that someone being wealthy is not necessarily a reason to respect that person or think they deserve to be in that spot we're going to have a hell of a time trying to change things for the better.

 

[Beco]

USA spends more per capita on healthcare with worse results than nations who manage their systems better. Doesn't help that USA providers siphon-off close to 20% of healthcare dollars for executives and stockholders.

Other nations manage to provide education and healthcare. Is USA too stupid to learn what works?

Which I guess is why the world wants to live in the United States.....that explains it...

 

[Sean Renaud]

Which I guess is why the world wants to live in the United States.....that explains it...

You really don't see a great deal of people trying to get to the US from nations we would consider "real" countries. But don't let pesky things like facts get in the way.

Also Healthcare isn't the only thing in the universe.

 

[Beco]

You really don't see a great deal of people trying to get to the US from nations we would consider "real" countries. But don't let pesky things like facts get in the way.

Also Healthcare isn't the only thing in the universe.

http://38.media.tumblr.com/2aaf172ec6c3ead795922b8d74de84d6/tumblr_inline_o54c28VQhD1qatabt_500.gif

 

[Beco]

The Sanders' returns show they live on his Senatorial salary and their small pensions, he as a former mayor, she as a former college president. Total: under US$200k, and much of that goes away when he leaves the Senate. What's guaranteed for life? Pensions. Not huge corporate honoraria.

The thing about avowed socialists is not only are they hypocrites for denouncing capitalism, but those people don’t really contribute much of anything to society to begin with.

They’re completely cool with taking cash from others because they are backwards enough to think some people can actually make “too much money.”

If Bernie Sanders really only paid 13.5% tax rate, he paid LESS than Mitt Romney who was at about 14-15%. LESS than fucken Mitt Romney.

 

[JackLuis]

The thing about avowed socialists is not only are they hypocrites for denouncing capitalism, but those people don’t really contribute much of anything to society to begin with.

They’re completely cool with taking cash from others because they are backwards enough to think some people can actually make “too much money.”

If Bernie Sanders really only paid 13.5% tax rate, he paid LESS than Mitt Romney who was at about 14-15%. LESS than fucken Mitt Romney.

1. Democratic socialism is like FDR Democracy. It doesn't try to eliminate Capitalism, just keep it in check.

2. I have no idea what you mean by that.

3. Mit Romney makes a hell of a lot more than Sanders, he probably should pay more taxes.

 

[BotanyBoy]

The thing about avowed socialists is not only are they hypocrites for denouncing capitalism, but those people don’t really contribute much of anything to society to begin with.

I'm a socialist in the sense that I think the government has a responsibility to take care of it's people.

I don't see any reason why we can't have a free market and get everyone basic HC services for 1/2 what we are currently paying just like every other 1st world nation on the planet. It's a clear cut case of socialism > corporatism and as soon as enough silent/boomers die off genX and the millennials are going to totally socialize our HC and education system.

They’re completely cool with taking cash from others because they are backwards enough to think some people can actually make “too much money.”

Some people can, because trickle down economics is bullshit.

 

[sr71plt]

Bernie's people were all over Hillary on the airwaves today about the high-flyer fundraiser dinner she's attending at George Clooney's house in Los Angeles tonight. It's going for over $3,300 a plate.

The problem with the complaint by Bernie's people is that Hillary's fundraiser is pulling money out of the superrich to go directly into the DNC coffers and then spread over all of the congressional and local campaigns for Democrats in November.

The $27 per that Bernie is pulling out of the common man is only going to Bernie's campaign. He apparently doesn't think he needs Democratic control of Congress to put his programs through.

 

[Boxlicker101]

You really don't see a great deal of people trying to get to the US from nations we would consider "real" countries. But don't let pesky things like facts get in the way.

Also Healthcare isn't the only thing in the universe.

There are millions of people trying to get into the US, by hook or by crook. What do you mean by a "real" country? Mexico? China? Philippines?

 

[Sean Renaud]

There are millions of people trying to get into the US, by hook or by crook. What do you mean by a "real" country? Mexico? China? Philippines?

England, France, Germany, France.

Mexico is a hair above a failed state. China is a police state. I'd have to look up conditions in the Phillippines.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Bernie's people were all over Hillary on the airwaves today about the high-flyer fundraiser dinner she's attending at George Clooney's house in Los Angeles tonight. It's going for over $3,300 a plate.

The problem with the complaint by Bernie's people is that Hillary's fundraiser is pulling money out of the superrich to go directly into the DNC coffers and then spread over all of the congressional and local campaigns for Democrats in November.

Oh good her and her buddies can go suck up to the 1% some more!!

How fuckin' dare we not all get behind that for partisan sake.....

There are millions of people trying to get into the US, by hook or by crook.

Yea millions of people in third world shit holes and commie slave labor camps.

What do you mean by a "real" country? Mexico? China? Philippines?

Real country as in 1st world.

 

[Sean Renaud]

I'm not for the moment defeding partisan crap. It's that I have a real hard time arguing with Pilot's premise which boils down to this.

Bernie is not a Democrat, he just plays nice and right now he's essntially trying to hijack the party. The fact that many of us want to be hijacked doesn't change what he's doing.

He could throw a huge Holywood fundraiser and aside from a few punks I don't think it would hurt him at all. Either way part of being in the party is you help out THE PARTY and he can't refuse to show up and then get huffy when they don't throw their shoulders to the millstone for him.

 

[Iceprincess12]

I'm not for the moment defeding partisan crap. It's that I have a real hard time arguing with Pilot's premise which boils down to this.

Bernie is not a Democrat, he just plays nice and right now he's essntially trying to hijack the party. The fact that many of us want to be hijacked doesn't change what he's doing.

He could throw a huge Holywood fundraiser and aside from a few punks I don't think it would hurt him at all. Either way part of being in the party is you help out THE PARTY and he can't refuse to show up and then get huffy when they don't throw their shoulders to the millstone for him.

*wave*

 

[BotanyBoy]

I'm not for the moment defeding partisan crap. It's that I have a real hard time arguing with Pilot's premise which boils down to this.

Bernie is not a Democrat, he just plays nice and right now he's essntially trying to hijack the party. The fact that many of us want to be hijacked doesn't change what he's doing.

No argument, hey someone has to fight for the working class of this country.

Sure the fuck ain't (R)odham.

He could throw a huge Holywood fundraiser and aside from a few punks I don't think it would hurt him at all. Either way part of being in the party is you help out THE PARTY and he can't refuse to show up and then get huffy when they don't throw their shoulders to the millstone for him.

I don't see him getting huffy I see him just pointing out the elitist being what they are and Pilot getting bent about it because he's a partisan cheerleader.

 

[Hypoxia]

Note that the GOP and Dem parties are private non-profit businesses incorporated in Delaware. Their local branches supposedly operate within the laws of their jurisdictions and may set their own rules within those national and local frameworks. Like any businesses, they try to squeeze out cometitors, may see friendly or hostile takeovers, may be misled by venal or incompetent leaders, may skirt legality and morality, etc.

Which means that Tromp, beneficiary of NYC's Dem political machine, and Sanders, a self-described democratic socialist (which ain't the same as communist), are free to exploit whatever party infrastructure they can get their hands on, so long as they act within the party's rules. Neither party seems to have defenses against takeovers, what some call hijacking. Feh. If you can take a party by its rules, it's yours. Celebrate!

 

[Boxlicker101]

Oh good her and her buddies can go suck up to the 1% some more!!

How fuckin' dare we not all get behind that for partisan sake.....





Yea millions of people in third world shit holes and commie slave labor camps.



Real country as in 1st world.

Immigrants are also arriving from West Europe, although not as many as in the 18th Century. http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/european-immigrants-united-states/

 

[Sean Renaud]

Yes, in your world 11%=>60%. I love Republican math.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Immigrants are also arriving from West Europe, although not as many as in the 18th Century. http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/european-immigrants-united-states/

That must be why all the repulbicans are screaming about how the over educated Eurotrash are all takin' thur jerbz!! and want walls built around Europe right?

 

[Boxlicker101]

Yes, in your world 11%=>60%. I love Republican math.

Where do you get "60%?" I said "millions" of people, and the facts prove me right, even with the conditions BB wants to impose.

 

[sr71plt]

How fuckin' dare we not all get behind that for partisan sake.....

What you don't seem to be able to grasp (although you're happy to be nasty about it) is that, in terms of BEING president and getting folks elected who would make Sander's program happen, there isn't any there there yet. You just want to sit there and pontificate nastily. (So what else is new?)

 

[Sean Renaud]

After the replacement of the nation’s European-focused origin quota system, greater numbers of immigrants from other parts of the world began to come to the U.S. Among immigrants who have arrived since 1965, half (51%) are from Latin America and one-quarter are from Asia.

That would mean that 76% of immigrants over the last 50 years have been from Latin America and and Asia. Which means of the 59 million, 44 million fall under that category.

Of European immigrants 43% are from Eastern Europe. Russia, Bosnia places like that.

And lets not forget that there are things in the world other than Health Care and what this conversation is about.

Hypoxia pointed out we spend way to much on healthcare and Beco replied that must be why people are swarming to get here.

Its worth noting America gives zero shits on emigrants so any attempt to find numbers would have to start by going to every country and gathering their records.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Where do you get "60%?" I said "millions" of people, and the facts prove me right, even with the conditions BB wants to impose.

Technically you are right.


But you and I both know god damn good and well SR and I were right.

The overwhelming majority of immigrants currently flowing in to the US come from complete shitholes, not highly developed 1st world ones.


That's why your political clan wants a wall between us and Mexico.....notice we don't have a huge Canadian Terkin' er Jerbz' problem.

 

[sr71plt]

Which means that Tromp, beneficiary of NYC's Dem political machine, and Sanders, a self-described democratic socialist (which ain't the same as communist), are free to exploit whatever party infrastructure they can get their hands on, so long as they act within the party's rules. Neither party seems to have defenses against takeovers, what some call hijacking. Feh. If you can take a party by its rules, it's yours. Celebrate!

That's sort of a reversal of what you were posting last week, isn't it?--that it was Hillary who was stealing the Democratic nomination from Bernie. Again, if he can manage it, that's one thing. That he's doing it by so far not lifting a finger to bring a supportive majority into Congress with him is something else entirely--and that it is he, in fact, who is trying to do the stealing--so far just for personal gain in having a rostrum to preach to "whoever."

 

[Sean Renaud]

What you don't seem to be able to grasp (although you're happy to be nasty about it) is that, in terms of BEING president and getting folks elected who would make Sander's program happen, there isn't any there there yet. You just want to sit there and pontificate nastily. (So what else is new?)

At least in theory Bernie's existence would help. The question then becomes do they owe him a debt of grattitude for being born, do they pretend it was Trump? I think it's safe to say that Trump vs Bernie would make this election bonkers in sheer numbers and if the traditional logic of "Democrats win when people show up to vote" holds together that would in turn bring along the team.

 

[JackLuis]

What you don't seem to be able to grasp (although you're happy to be nasty about it) is that, in terms of BEING president and getting folks elected who would make Sander's program happen, there isn't any there there yet. You just want to sit there and pontificate nastily. (So what else is new?)

What you say has some merit. However Sanders has the problem that he is not a "Leader of the Democratic Party' and has to slay the Hillery Beast before he can "lead the Progressives" in the Congressional races.

He started this with about a 5% recognition factor and now has just about tied Hillary in the polls. Don't you think he knows that he needs a Progressive Congress to overcome the "Party of No", but he has to force the Party of "Pragmatic Incrementalism," aka "Not Now'" to acknowledge him as their leader first?

OTOH, how many Congressional Candidates will say they support him, with the Clinton machine staring down at them?