Blackfish...pass it on

[Loverskitten]

Some very valid points in this article!
http://melissaasmith.hubpages.com/hub/orcaskill

 

[JMohegan]

I kill my coworker to get a raise. The raise makes sure that I get better medical care for my family. Is this now evil, mean or just nature?

Shortsighted, to say the least, unless your family somehow gets better medical care while you're in jail.

 

[Loverskitten]

Complete with mother bird freaking out.

Won't watch the video, but it goes the other way too.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ocheted-costumes-believe-aiding-recovery.html

Kitten attacked by crows. WARNING: super cute kitty pics

 

[JMohegan]

Some very valid points in this article!
http://melissaasmith.hubpages.com/hub/orcaskill

That's not an article, it's the blathering of an exotic pet owner with an obvious agenda. And it's not even relevant to this thread, since no one here has claimed that dolphins are "god-like" or "smarter than humans" or "have a higher level of conciseness [SIC] than us." So many straw men, christ!

More to the point, if you wanted to link to that particular exotic pet apologist, why not link to her blathering that takes on the OP directly? Here it is...

The Stupidity of the Blackfish Trailer

 

[JMohegan]

Won't watch the video, but it goes the other way too.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ocheted-costumes-believe-aiding-recovery.html

Kitten attacked by crows. WARNING: super cute kitty pics

Is it really impossible for you to imagine why a bird would try to kill a cat before it got big enough to return the favor?

I get why the baby version of your pet seems "super cute" to you. So? What exactly is your point here?

 

[Keroin]

Some very valid points in this article!
http://melissaasmith.hubpages.com/hub/orcaskill

So, because you and this author deem whales and dolphins as evil, it is therefore OK for us to keep them in captivity and essentially torture them?

See, I think what you're missing here is that I am not advocating cetacean superiority or human inferiority. I am opposed to keeping ALL wild animals (not domesticated) animals in captivity - this does not equal "dolphins and whales are magical superbeings". They are amazing creatures but I am not unaware of the violent side of their nature.

What the author of this article misses is that there is no definitive explanation for certain cetacean behaviors. Scientists still don't know why whales jump, for example. Lots of theories, some more believable than others, but no definite answer.

It's clear your mind will not be changed on any of this. Fair enough. I will continue to advocate for animal welfare.

 

[BiBunny]

Can we really call any non-human animal "evil"? Doesn't that require a certain amount of...sentience?...consciousness? Not sure which word to use here.

That's not an article, it's the blathering of an exotic pet owner with an obvious agenda. And it's not even relevant to this thread, since no one here has claimed that dolphins are "god-like" or "smarter than humans" or "have a higher level of conciseness [SIC] than us." So many straw men, christ!

More to the point, if you wanted to link to that particular exotic pet apologist, why not link to her blathering that takes on the OP directly? Here it is...

The Stupidity of the Blackfish Trailer

I like the fact that this person points out that with any large animal, be it wild or domesticated, there is a significant risk involved in handling it. People who aren't around large animals regularly REALLY don't seem to get it.

Folks regularly pull over to the side of the road to pet my horses from the other side of the fence, which is fine. But some of them have allowed their kids to climb over or through the fence and play around under the horses' legs, and I'm like, Jesus Christ, people. You may think horses are just like big, fuzzy dogs, but they aren't. If the horse stomps its foot to get rid of a fly or something and there's a kid underneath it, the kid can be seriously injured, even though the horse was not intentionally trying to hurt it. It's the nature of the beast when the beast is in question is 1,000+ pound animal.

People infantilize and anthropomorphize animals when they shouldn't. They allow them to develop bad habits. They try to treat them like people when animals simply don't have the higher reasoning capacity that people do. Then, they act all surprised when someone gets hurt by these animals, and there's all this weeping and gnashing of teeth and "What do we doooooooo?!?!?!?!" BS.

Stop being stupid, that's what you do.

Yes, I know this was only tangentially related to the OP. That article just kinda hit on one of my pet peeves, so I started ranting. I'm sorry.

 

[Keroin]

I like the fact that this person points out that with any large animal, be it wild or domesticated, there is a significant risk involved in handling it. People who aren't around large animals regularly REALLY don't seem to get it.

This is one the few valid points she makes, although I get the sense that the author thinks it is "OK" to have humans working around large, wild animals in order to entertain other humans.

Horses are big animals, and can do a lot of damage, as I'm sure you know, BB. However, they are also domesticated. Even then, can you imagine what kind of state a horse would be in if it spent its entire life in a tiny space?

The whole "big wild dangerous animal" argument is another reason I can't understand why captive dolphin swim programs still exist. I've swum with wild dolphins. I did so knowing the risks, knowing what behaviours to avoid, etc. And I did so on their turf - where they were free to leave at any time.

Just as with your horses, I don't think the average person has any idea how much damage a dolphin can do. And have done. People have been seriously hurt swimming with captive dolphins, something that always seems to be kept very quiet. Tourists are sold on this notion that these are tame, happy creatures that would never hurt a fly.

ETA: Your rant is totally justified. There is no end to the stupidity. Our good friend here told us about a couple of tourists he watched photographing a bear cub last season. Cub was in a ditch just off the road. Tourist #1 was on one side, Tourist #2 was on the other side. Each about 10 feet away from the cub. Mom, of course, was very nearby. Obviously, these folks have never seen how fast a mother black bear can run. Or they're dumb. Maybe both.

 

[Keroin]

That's not an article, it's the blathering of an exotic pet owner with an obvious agenda. And it's not even relevant to this thread, since no one here has claimed that dolphins are "god-like" or "smarter than humans" or "have a higher level of conciseness [SIC] than us." So many straw men, christ!

The author is an idiot and most definitely has an agenda, which is a means to make her ownership of exotic pets seem "OK".

In my experience, as a vet assistant and just in general, exotic pet owners are among the most irresponsible pet owners out there. The number of these pets that end up in rescue facilities is staggering. What so many fail to consider, (among other things), is what will happen to their pets if their life circumstances change, or they die, and they are unable to care for the animals any more? It's hard enough to find homes for adult dogs and cats, animals that most people are comfortable owning and can care for. Snakes? Primates? Reptiles?

I've heard/seen too many sad stories about discarded exotic pets. It guts me.

 

[BiBunny]

This is one the few valid points she makes, although I get the sense that the author thinks it is "OK" to have humans working around large, wild animals in order to entertain other humans.

Horses are big animals, and can do a lot of damage, as I'm sure you know, BB. However, they are also domesticated. Even then, can you imagine what kind of state a horse would be in if it spent its entire life in a tiny space?

The whole "big wild dangerous animal" argument is another reason I can't understand why captive dolphin swim programs still exist. I've swum with wild dolphins. I did so knowing the risks, knowing what behaviours to avoid, etc. And I did so on their turf - where they were free to leave at any time.

Just as with your horses, I don't think the average person has any idea how much damage a dolphin can do. And have done. People have been seriously hurt swimming with captive dolphins, something that always seems to be kept very quiet. Tourists are sold on this notion that these are tame, happy creatures that would never hurt a fly.

No, I agree with you. That particular article just kinda set me off on a stream-of-consciousness rant, LOL.

 

[JMohegan]

The author is an idiot and most definitely has an agenda, which is a means to make her ownership of exotic pets seem "OK".

In my experience, as a vet assistant and just in general, exotic pet owners are among the most irresponsible pet owners out there. The number of these pets that end up in rescue facilities is staggering. What so many fail to consider, (among other things), is what will happen to their pets if their life circumstances change, or they die, and they are unable to care for the animals any more? It's hard enough to find homes for adult dogs and cats, animals that most people are comfortable owning and can care for. Snakes? Primates? Reptiles?

I've heard/seen too many sad stories about discarded exotic pets. It guts me.

And then there's the issue of what happens when the purveyors of exotic species go tramping through the rain forest or wherever to get their supplies.

Not to mention what's going on in Florida.

Yeah, that author's a gem.

 

[Keroin]

And then there's the issue of what happens when the purveyors of exotic species go tramping through the rain forest or wherever to get their supplies.

Not to mention what's going on in Florida.

Yeah, that author's a gem.

Oh yeah, and the whole "releasing non-native aquarium fish into local water system" thing...that's fun. <----sarcasm

It goes on and on. Hence why I try to have a bit of tunnel vision and focus on a few areas I feel most strongly about.

In good news, however, our local whale and sea otter populations are doing very well! Yay conservation efforts!

 

[Loverskitten]

And then there's the issue of what happens when the purveyors of exotic species go tramping through the rain forest or wherever to get their supplies.

Not to mention what's going on in Florida.

Yeah, that author's a gem.

I think her points on killer whales and dolphins, and how humans think of them, are spot on.

Like I said on page one, a lion attacks and it's,"oh it's a wild animal, bound to happen" but this trailer is saying "the orca attacked because of the trauma caused by humans"

Yes, I know what's going on in Florida. I never even addressed keeping exotics as pets. There are "no questions asked" exotic pet turn ins too. A vet sees the animals and they are placed in proper facilities (mostly zoos and education facilities) instead of let loose. Do I think people should stop selling exotics, yes. Do I think there should be no zoos/aquariums? No, many do education, conservation, and breeding of endangered species. I think trying to get rid of all zoos, exotic pets and stray animals would be akin to getting toothpaste back in the tube. Good luck

So many issues..... I still hate orcas

 

[naughtabell]

Can we really call any non-human animal "evil"? Doesn't that require a certain amount of...sentience?...consciousness? Not sure which word to use here.
.....

People infantilize and anthropomorphize animals when they shouldn't. They allow them to develop bad habits. They try to treat them like people when animals simply don't have the higher reasoning capacity that people do. Then, they act all surprised when someone gets hurt by these animals, and there's all this weeping and gnashing of teeth and "What do we doooooooo?!?!?!?!" BS.

Stop being stupid, that's what you do.

Yes, I know this was only tangentially related to the OP. That article just kinda hit on one of my pet peeves, so I started ranting. I'm sorry.

EXACTLY! Well said.


You know if zoos or places like Sea World only specialized in the healing or saving of sick or wounded animals (in other words animals who wouldn't survive in the wild) I think I might be a bit more supportive. I think they could be great tools used to educate people. However, I have a problem with keeping non-domesticated animals that are perfectly healthy in captivity.

The thing that bothers me most is that a lot of the wild animals at zoos who have killed trainers, zookeepers, etc. are often put down...and for what? Acting out their natural animal instinct. There is something majorly wrong with that.

 

[Netzach]

I seriously think that the attribution of "evil" to dolphins is as blitheringly romantic/stupid as the people attributing spiritual higher consciousness to them. It's doing the exact. same. thing.

Observe, take in, accept it, what you see in front of you. An animal doesn't have a superego. They're not dumb. They're not moral. An intelligent mammal with a range of hundreds of miles of open ocean deserves better than a tank and will go crazy. Polar bears will go crazy. Apes will go crazy. And people who study ursines, primates and cetaceans will give EVIDENCE of observed behavior.

This woman you quote has the audacity to dismiss actual marine scientists as "too agenda" to agree with assertions of craziness and sets about disproving it anecdotally - I don't really need to know more than that, it's that fabulous willful ignorance on display.

If you want to put people into its face and near its teeth you're begging for disaster. This doesn't come up in the wild very often. It's pure profit for these parks.

I think zoos and captivity serves several very LIMITED uses. Rehab of the injured. Education animals for those who cannot be re-introduced and which can be used as such. (Imprinted raptors and non-poisonous snakes for example.) I like to see things, and I drank the kool aid of conservation arguments and getting kids involved in a direct way, but honestly there's nothing really immersive multimedia doesn't give kids enough of to get them to care. It's pretty amazing. It's also pretty amazing how much people will still love and take to an eagle with a messed up shoulder or a lion missing a leg or whatever - out Victorian obsession with perfect specimines has to go.

Captive breeding for species gone from the wild environment with hope of re-introduction would be more OK by me if this wasn't so badly abused for cash.

That's pretty much it. Hoops and hugs aren't part of it.

 

[Netzach]

Is it really impossible for you to imagine why a bird would try to kill a cat before it got big enough to return the favor?

I get why the baby version of your pet seems "super cute" to you. So? What exactly is your point here?

Crows in fact eat small mammals. Baby skunk or rat or whatever - there's no reason in the world kitten isn't on the menu. Corvids are freakishly smart, smarter we learn every day - but I don't think they're thinking into the future that much. Yeah, sadly it's not like all kills are clean mid-range-shot ones like you see in Attenborough films - the stuff on the cutting room floor of those docs is probably pretty awful, and in this case they just started face first is my guess. The kitty is absurdly cute, and both unlucky and lucky.

ONE more reason I can't imagine letting mine out, funny how this keeps coming up.

 

[Netzach]

I think her points on killer whales and dolphins, and how humans think of them, are spot on.

Like I said on page one, a lion attacks and it's,"oh it's a wild animal, bound to happen" but this trailer is saying "the orca attacked because of the trauma caused by humans"

Orcas aren't known for attacks on humans in the wild.

Orcas aren't known to put themselves selectively into the marine equivalent of solitary confinement and subsequently go crazy and exhibit unusual behavior like attacks on a human.

Without human intervention, this was simply not possible, it would never have happened. If your point is that we didn't take some enlightened vegetarian being and make it "mean" then fine, but nobody is arguing that. We're arguing for the leaving the fuck alone of these animals.

If you're pissed off about the free willy revisions, I would think you'd be against the shows and the shamu plush, starting kids out on the pablum early.

 

[JMohegan]

Crows in fact eat small mammals. Baby skunk or rat or whatever - there's no reason in the world kitten isn't on the menu. Corvids are freakishly smart, smarter we learn every day - but I don't think they're thinking into the future that much. Yeah, sadly it's not like all kills are clean mid-range-shot ones like you see in Attenborough films - the stuff on the cutting room floor of those docs is probably pretty awful, and in this case they just started face first is my guess. The kitty is absurdly cute, and both unlucky and lucky.

ONE more reason I can't imagine letting mine out, funny how this keeps coming up.

Crows can be fucking annoying, but they're fascinating as hell. I would love to know how they perceive time, their capacity for planning and prophylactic measures and such.

When I was kid we spent all day, every day, all summer outdoors. The crows in the neighborhood knew which kids were good kids, and which kids were jerks. They watched, and they knew everything. They harassed the mean, destructive, hey-watch-me-pull-the-wings-off-this-butterfly type of kids, and left the rest of us alone. Not because the birds gave a shit about the non-bird targets, but because... well, I don't know why, exactly. But I swear to you that they did.

 

[Netzach]

Crows can be fucking annoying, but they're fascinating as hell. I would love to know how they perceive time, their capacity for planning and prophylactic measures and such.

When I was kid we spent all day, every day, all summer outdoors. The crows in the neighborhood knew which kids were good kids, and which kids were jerks. They watched, and they knew everything. They harassed the mean, destructive, hey-watch-me-pull-the-wings-off-this-butterfly type of kids, and left the rest of us alone. Not because the birds gave a shit about the non-bird targets, but because... well, I don't know why, exactly. But I swear to you that they did.

I love crows. Loud, aggressive, opportunistic, and smart, I'm all for it. What you said doesn't surprise me much at all. They're known to transmit information about hazards to generations who have never encountered the same hazard, and we have no clue how they do this. Maybe they were really observant about those kids!

 

[Keroin]

We're arguing for the leaving the fuck alone of these animals.

This.

 

[Loverskitten]

I hope everyone will see this film. It's a story that desperately needs to be told.

Blackfish

Back to the original post, unless someone wants to bring up stray cats, exotic pets, Florida, or what ever....
I've seen this trailer advertised so much on FB (not shared, advertised) it screams "Kony 2012" to me, people out to sensationalize something just to make a buck. This is "Kony 2013, Killer Whale Edition"

 

[Keroin]

Back to the original post, unless someone wants to bring up stray cats, exotic pets, Florida, or what ever....
I've seen this trailer advertised so much on FB (not shared, advertised) it screams "Kony 2012" to me, people out to sensationalize something just to make a buck. This is "Kony 2013, Killer Whale Edition"

I have listened to an interview with the film's creator (long before the promo for the film began). She said her original intention was simply to investigate the death at Seaworld. Nothing more. She herself had visited aquariums and had watched whale and dolphin shows with her children. She went on to say that it wasn't very long into to filming before she realized there was a bigger, and more important story -- the welfare of the whales in captivity and the question of the need for them to be in captivity.

This does not shock me at all.

As a young person I also attended these kind of shows without a second thought and I "loved" whales and dolphins. When I grew older two things happened, first, I developed empathy that extended beyond my own nose, second, I saw dolphins and whales in their natural environment. It was the latter that convinced me, literally in the blink of an eye, that captivity for marine mammals was beyond wrong, it was cruel. Scientific evidence would go on to support this epiphany, but I didn't need science to tell me that no aquarium can even come close to matching this animal's home and social group.

I don't like that people continue to support Seaworld and their ilk, but I do understand it to some degree. If you haven't been given the facts, and if your empathy does not yet extend to non-human creatures, then it can all just seem like fun. Seaworld sure isn't going to show you anything but a smiling Disney version of reality. That is why films like this one and The Cove are not sensational, they're necessary. There are a slew of organizations and individuals who have been working tirelessly, for years, decades, to educate the public and stop this barbaric practice. This is not some flash in the pan, this a movement with a lot of sound science behind it. Ask any of the "old timers" on this board and they will tell you that I've been on this soapbox shouting about this cause for ages.

I have never seen the Free Willy movies. That is Hollywood and the whale in those films was a captive whale. I have no desire to help people who use captive cetaceans to make a buck.

You don't like the movie, (which you haven't seen). You hate Orcas and think they're evil. You don't want to discuss the big picture of human's relations to animals. You have "issues" with movies, including documentaries, that try to show human cruelty toward marine animals and address the problem. So what's your point?

People should not see this film because of your personal biases?

You believe it is acceptable to torture marine animals for profit?

An interview with the director.

 

[JMohegan]

An interview with the director.

First of all, wow, she's lovely. Irrelevant, I know, but still. Wow. Lovely, and so very refreshing.

Second, it's interesting that she goes out of her way to avoid demonizing Sea World management.

Finally, with regard to the "loving", I've gotta say - hats off to my father, who taught me this when I was about seven.

 

[Keroin]

First of all, wow, she's lovely. Irrelevant, I know, but still. Wow. Lovely, and so very refreshing.

Second, it's interesting that she goes out of her way to avoid demonizing Sea World management.

Finally, with regard to the "loving", I've gotta say - hats off to my father, who taught me this when I was about seven.

That's a good lesson. One every parent should teach.

I will reserve final comment until I see the film, but from her interviews Cowperthwaite strikes me as a very logical documentarian who wants to tell a compelling story but wants to do so on the basis of solid facts and evidence. Critics can poo-poo the trailer all they want, but it has succeeded in getting the attention of those who would otherwise probably not care about a documentary about whales.

As for Seaworld management, I think we humans excel at convincing ourselves that the terrible things we do are okay. I'm sure, inside that circle, those people really do believe that these whales are not being mistreated and they have their fellow suits nearby to keep reinforcing that belief. And, of course, the sweet, sweet money helps. Cowperthwaite is smart not to demonize those folks because you know how people behave when they feel they are being attacked - they put up the shield and dig in harder. As an organization, Seaworld's not going to back down, but perhaps an individual or two within the organization might start to look at the facts and the truth?

 

[JMohegan]

As an organization, Seaworld's not going to back down, but perhaps an individual or two within the organization might start to look at the facts and the truth?

And then what?

There will always be employees, managers, shareholders to replace the enlightened. "Sweet money," as you say, will bring them. So we're back, once again, to the average asshole buying a ticket.

It's possible that the film will have a material impact on park attendance, but I wouldn't bet on it. Even those who are exposed to the obvious truth somehow manage to cling to willful ignorance, as Netzach aptly put it.

The only real hope for shutting down the whale tanks, dolphin swims, etc., is legislation. And even if such legislation did somehow make it through Congress, it's unclear to me that it would withstand a court challenge. It pains me greatly to say this, but the USSC is the most pro-big-business court in memory.

I'm sorry to be so pessimistic, and I'm absolutely NOT saying that activists shouldn't keep trying.