Bullies

[Trombonus]

LMAO true true. You being of the opposite end of the spectrum. Heh my bro is the same way...he actually has a complete Ghostbusters costume and like...tons of their toys heh

Transformers vs. The Ghostbusters! I feel a fanfic crossover coming on

 

[JagFarlane]

Transformers vs. The Ghostbusters! I feel a fanfic crossover coming on

Oh god -groans-

 

[Trinique_Fire]

Bullied.

 

[logophile]

Ditto.

And, IMO, bullying -- while reprehensible -- is only effective if one allows it to be. Yes, it's difficult to overcome. Empowerment isn't easy to achieve or maintain -- especially for kids, who are exceptionally susceptible to peer pressure -- but it is doable and worth the effort, for it has beneficial impact in other ways.

"Lead by example," I tell my kids. Karma is real. It WILL come around.

The Golden Rule is golden for a reason.

This response sounds a little like blaming the victim not the perpetrator. If you've told your child how to respond to bullies (by loudly saying, "Don't bully me! Leave me alone!" and then moving away), your child is doing these things and the bullying continues, it's hard to say that it's simply a matter of empowering your child.

When your child is doing all of the "proper" anti-bullying things but it's not working, the child feels like (s)he is doing it "wrong." This is terribly disempowering, and almost nothing that is done at home can make up for it. The bullies need to be made to stop, directly. The circular path of helping the victim to be unaffected by the bullies isn't enough.

Suspensions, even expulsions need to happen. Every school needs a zero tolerance policy when it comes to bullies. Discipline needs to be swift and certain.

The alternate solution of beating the living tar out of the bullies is probably equally effective but not something I want to teach my children!

 

[CrimsonMaiden]

The only fight I ever got into during my school years was with my sister. I don't remember the particulars now, but we were on the school bus and got into it about something. The bus driver (who we knew very well) threatened to stop the bus and let us fight it out on the ground. We stopped. Why he didn't tell our parents, I never knew, but he didn't.

 

[cloudy]

The alternate solution of beating the living tar out of the bullies is probably equally effective but not something I want to teach my children!

I'm not trying to start an argument, but I sincerely want to know....why not?

True, nonviolence is always the best route, but not everyone in the world lives by those rules, and children have to learn to function in the world at large. I've always taught my children never to hit first, but to feel no hesitation about hitting back. It's worked; they're not bullied.

 

[sophia jane]

This response sounds a little like blaming the victim not the perpetrator. If you've told your child how to respond to bullies (by loudly saying, "Don't bully me! Leave me alone!" and then moving away), your child is doing these things and the bullying continues, it's hard to say that it's simply a matter of empowering your child.

When your child is doing all of the "proper" anti-bullying things but it's not working, the child feels like (s)he is doing it "wrong." This is terribly disempowering, and almost nothing that is done at home can make up for it. The bullies need to be made to stop, directly. The circular path of helping the victim to be unaffected by the bullies isn't enough.

Suspensions, even expulsions need to happen. Every school needs a zero tolerance policy when it comes to bullies. Discipline needs to be swift and certain.

The alternate solution of beating the living tar out of the bullies is probably equally effective but not something I want to teach my children!

Well said, L, and I totally agree.

 

[Katyusha]

In elementary and junior high school, I was considered a nerd, a geek, a dork. The "cool kids" always picked on me, whether it was about my grades, my glasses, my braces, my hair, my clothes, you name it. they found it to be something to laugh at. I was never physically harmed by any of them but I was ostracized by just about everyone in school because they wanted to be accepted by the "cool kids." Didn't have friends, couldn't get a boy to like me, let alone want to go out with me, all the "typical" stuff that us spazzes go through for years on end.

Early in high school some of this still went on but compared to my earlier schools, there were too many students for everyone to pick on a single person, and so I was able to make some friends; kids like me who'd been picked on all through their last eight years of schooling as well. By junior year I had gained enough confidence and made enough friends that when someone did try to get under my skin (read: Kim and her crowd in the band), I was able to brush them off like the little mosquitoes they were acting like.

 

[Katyusha]

This response sounds a little like blaming the victim not the perpetrator. If you've told your child how to respond to bullies (by loudly saying, "Don't bully me! Leave me alone!" and then moving away), your child is doing these things and the bullying continues, it's hard to say that it's simply a matter of empowering your child.

When your child is doing all of the "proper" anti-bullying things but it's not working, the child feels like (s)he is doing it "wrong." This is terribly disempowering, and almost nothing that is done at home can make up for it. The bullies need to be made to stop, directly. The circular path of helping the victim to be unaffected by the bullies isn't enough.

Suspensions, even expulsions need to happen. Every school needs a zero tolerance policy when it comes to bullies. Discipline needs to be swift and certain.

The alternate solution of beating the living tar out of the bullies is probably equally effective but not something I want to teach my children!

I wholly agree with this, just trying to empower a child is not enough. If the bullies have decided that you make an ideal target for them, they will come after you again and again and there's nothing you can do about it. The problem is not that you're allowing to happen, rather it's that you can't make it stop, and you can't figure out why. So not only do the bullies do an excellent job of demoralizing you, the fact that what you've been told to do isn't working demoralizes you too.

Yes, in some cases it's simply one child allowing a bully to bully them, but IMO, in most cases it doesn't matter what the victim tries or does to make it stop. Bullies don't leave you alone until they are good and ready.

 

[logophile]

I'm not trying to start an argument, but I sincerely want to know....why not?

True, nonviolence is always the best route, but not everyone in the world lives by those rules, and children have to learn to function in the world at large. I've always taught my children never to hit first, but to feel no hesitation about hitting back. It's worked; they're not bullied.

Because I refuse to live in a world where the person who hits hardest wins. And if that's true about the world right now, I will continue to work until I die to change that. There is no place in this world for me if I believe that there is anything mightier than love and community.

 

[Trombonus]

In elementary and junior high school, I was considered a nerd, a geek, a dork. The "cool kids" always picked on me, whether it was about my grades, my glasses, my braces, my hair, my clothes, you name it. they found it to be something to laugh at. I was never physically harmed by any of them but I was ostracized by just about everyone in school because they wanted to be accepted by the "cool kids." Didn't have friends, couldn't get a boy to like me, let alone want to go out with me, all the "typical" stuff that us spazzes go through for years on end.

Early in high school some of this still went on but compared to my earlier schools, there were too many students for everyone to pick on a single person, and so I was able to make some friends; kids like me who'd been picked on all through their last eight years of schooling as well. By junior year I had gained enough confidence and made enough friends that when someone did try to get under my skin (read: Kim and her crowd in the band), I was able to brush them off like the little mosquitoes they were acting like.

They were band kids? That's pretty unusual. We tend to be the good, studious kids. Of course, there are exceptions, but that's really interesting to me.

Of course, high school is all about what clique you're in so it's not that surprising.

 

[logophile]

I wholly agree with this, just trying to empower a child is not enough. If the bullies have decided that you make an ideal target for them, they will come after you again and again and there's nothing you can do about it. The problem is not that you're allowing to happen, rather it's that you can't make it stop, and you can't figure out why. So not only do the bullies do an excellent job of demoralizing you, the fact that what you've been told to do isn't working demoralizes you too.

Yes, in some cases it's simply one child allowing a bully to bully them, but IMO, in most cases it doesn't matter what the victim tries or does to make it stop. Bullies don't leave you alone until they are good and ready.

Well said, Kat! Thank you for more personal perspectives on this.

 

[cloudy]

Because I refuse to live in a world where the person who hits hardest wins. And if that's true about the world right now, I will continue to work until I die to change that. There is no place in this world for me if I believe that there is anything mightier than love and community.

I agree with your philosophy....agree completely.

However, I wanted to equip my kids to live in the world the way it truly is, not the way that I hope it is someday. I felt that to do otherwise was to put them at a disadvantage.

Different strokes, I suppose.

 

[lesbiaphrodite]

I've never been a bully, nor have I been bullied by anyone. I was raised by a hard-core man's man and he taught me to fight to win if I chose to fight. I've been in many a brawl and I've been hit. But, I've always been the last one standing at the end of the fight.

 

[cloudy]

I've never been a bully, nor have I been bullied by anyone. I was raised by a hard-core man's man and he taught me to fight to win if I chose to fight. I've been in many a brawl and I've been hit. But, I've always been the last one standing at the end of the fight.

Same here.

 

[impressive]

Well said, L, and I totally agree.

Has nothing whatsoever to do with blame, and I in no way implied that nothing should be done by those in positions of authority about persistent & potentially dangerous bullying of children. Of course there are situations that warrant intervention. To insist otherwise is folly.

However, if someone's always "rescuing" them every time a peer behaves like an asshole, then they'll learn to expect -- or even demand -- such rescue. Victimization is a slippery slope. I'm not sure precisely where the line is between support & unnecessary rescue. I'm sure it varies by circumstance, and some of the examples given clearly tip the scales in favor of intervention. As a parent, it's very difficult to let my children fight their own battles -- even armed with all the advice I can give them. I want to HELP -- to FIX -- and I struggle with that line between helping with the battle while hampering their abillity to deal with life's assholes.

And no, before anyone goes off, I'm not "accusing" anyone here of hampering their children's development. I'm just sharing my personal struggle.

 

[lesbiaphrodite]

Same here.

The first rule of Fight Club is - you do not talk about Fight Club. The second rule of Fight Club is - you DO NOT talk about Fight Club. Third rule of Fight Club, someone yells Stop!, goes limp, taps out, the fight is over. Fourth rule, only two guys to a fight. Fifth rule, one fight at a time, fellas. Sixth rule, no shirt, no shoes. Seventh rule, fights will go on as long as they have to. And the eighth and final rule, if this is your first night at Fight Club, you have to fight. --Tyler Durden, Fight Club

 

[Katyusha]

They were band kids? That's pretty unusual. We tend to be the good, studious kids. Of course, there are exceptions, but that's really interesting to me.

Of course, high school is all about what clique you're in so it's not that surprising.

For the most part we all were. I felt like I belonged in the band and orchestra more than I'd ever belonged anywhere else. Kim was a year younger than I and to this day I don't know what her problem with me was. She showed up my sophomore year and just went after me. She had this little crowd of female minions that would try and pick on me as well. No amount of ignoring made her stop but by that point she didn't matter to me. So I just ignored her and her friends.

The really sad thing about this was that she tried that in the UA's marching band too.

 

[Trombonus]

For the most part we all were. I felt like I belonged in the band and orchestra more than I'd ever belonged anywhere else. Kim was a year younger than I and to this day I don't know what her problem with me was. She showed up my sophomore year and just went after me. She had this little crowd of female minions that would try and pick on me as well. No amount of ignoring made her stop but by that point she didn't matter to me. So I just ignored her and her friends.

The really sad thing about this was that she tried that in the UA's marching band too.

That makes more sense to me. Band was always like my second family, but then every family has a black sheep or two.

 

[Katyusha]

That makes more sense to me. Band was always like my second family, but then every family has a black sheep or two.

Indeed they do.

 

[S-Des]

Every school needs a zero tolerance policy when it comes to bullies. Discipline needs to be swift and certain.

I am never in favor of zero tolerance policies because too often they hamstring the judgment of the administrators who we otherwise entrust with our child's education. We've seen ridiculous overreactions due to zero tolerance policies including a kindergartener being suspended for kissing another child, a second grader suspended for bringing a 2" army man to school (which had a gun in his hands.....hororrs ) and other children harshly punished for infractions that in the past would have been handled more adroitly. How do you determine who the bully is in a given situation? Often the very people who are the worst offenders are the ones who constantly suck up to the authority figures, so someone fighting back could look like the bully (and how much would it suck to be expelled for standing up for yourself?).

I'm with Imp, there's a balance between protecting your children and letting them learn how to deal with adversity on their own. You can't explain the line because it differs for everyone and in many different situations, but we know for ourselves when it's too much. To create arbitrary guidelines that don't take context into account is going to lead to many more cases of overreaction by the administration. It's a process, and an ever-evolving one at that. It's not always fair, but neither is life.

 

[S-Des]

Indeed they do.

I'm still trying to get my head around the idea of anyone thinking of you as a spaz....

 

[freshface]

Has nothing whatsoever to do with blame, and I in no way implied that nothing should be done by those in positions of authority about persistent & potentially dangerous bullying of children. Of course there are situations that warrant intervention. To insist otherwise is folly.

However, if someone's always "rescuing" them every time a peer behaves like an asshole, then they'll learn to expect -- or even demand -- such rescue. Victimization is a slippery slope. I'm not sure precisely where the line is between support & unnecessary rescue. I'm sure it varies by circumstance, and some of the examples given clearly tip the scales in favor of intervention. As a parent, it's very difficult to let my children fight their own battles -- even armed with all the advice I can give them. I want to HELP -- to FIX -- and I struggle with that line between helping with the battle while hampering their abillity to deal with life's assholes.

And no, before anyone goes off, I'm not "accusing" anyone here of hampering their children's development. I'm just sharing my personal struggle.

I think there's a big difference between being rescued from garden variety assholes and being protected from bullies. I followed my autistic brother all through school. As far as his Middle School Principal was concerned, everything bad that happened to my brother was his fault. Even when the bullies shaved his head and drew blood, he must have brought it on himself.

He reached High School with the same band of bullies. That Principal suspended the first group that attacked him and made it clear to the rest that nothing else would happen in his school. That ended his problems. For serious problems, zero tolerance from the person in charge can make all the difference in the world.

When your brother is disabled, you are never one of the cool kids. I survived that Middle School with books and split second timing.

Dealing with life's assholes does not mean being pounded by them. To me, it's no different than sexual harassment. You don't have to like me but you do have to leave me alone.

 

[freshface]

I am never in favor of zero tolerance policies because too often they hamstring the judgment of the administrators who we otherwise entrust with our child's education. We've seen ridiculous overreactions due to zero tolerance policies including a kindergartener being suspended for kissing another child, a second grader suspended for bringing a 2" army man to school (which had a gun in his hands.....hororrs ) and other children harshly punished for infractions that in the past would have been handled more adroitly. How do you determine who the bully is in a given situation? Often the very people who are the worst offenders are the ones who constantly suck up to the authority figures, so someone fighting back could look like the bully (and how much would it suck to be expelled for standing up for yourself?).

I didn't see this post before I wrote my last one. I agree that suspending kindergartners for kissing is ridiculous. But zero tolerance is also in the atmosphere that the authority figures encourage. To me, it doesn't mean specific punishments for specific crimes. It means everyone understanding how they should treat each other and understanding that bad behavior will bring consequences.

 

[impressive]

I think there's a big difference between being rescued from garden variety assholes and being protected from bullies. I followed my autistic brother all through school. As far as his Middle School Principal was concerned, everything bad that happened to my brother was his fault. Even when the bullies shaved his head and drew blood, he must have brought it on himself.

He reached High School with the same band of bullies. That Principal suspended the first group that attacked him and made it clear to the rest that nothing else would happen in his school. That ended his problems. For serious problems, zero tolerance from the person in charge can make all the difference in the world.

When your brother is disabled, you are never one of the cool kids. I survived that Middle School with books and split second timing.

Dealing with life's assholes does not mean being pounded by them. To me, it's no different than sexual harassment. You don't have to like me but you do have to leave me alone.

I agree that there IS a difference. When does a "garden variety asshole" (love that phrase!) become a bully? I mean, are GVAs just seeds that will grow into bullies if fertilized? Something to ponder, anyway. I mean, some bullies are just innately mean. Others draw their power from the responses of their targets. Maybe the latter were once just GVAs.

And, two of my kids have a brother who is disabled. I know the ropes, there. They're holding their own, both in the bullying department as well as the "friends" who suddenly become scarce when it's time to come to our house -- like those disabilities are contagious. They aren't, of course, but attitude IS.