Bullies

[logophile]

However, if someone's always "rescuing" them every time a peer behaves like an asshole, then they'll learn to expect -- or even demand -- such rescue. Victimization is a slippery slope. I'm not sure precisely where the line is between support & unnecessary rescue. I'm sure it varies by circumstance, and some of the examples given clearly tip the scales in favor of intervention. As a parent, it's very difficult to let my children fight their own battles -- even armed with all the advice I can give them. I want to HELP -- to FIX -- and I struggle with that line between helping with the battle while hampering their abillity to deal with life's assholes.

I think it is fair for children to expect that the grown-ups in their life will "rescue" them, to keep them safe. Opinions like this one are the very reason I homeschooled for years. I know that many adults feel like kids need to work this stuff out on their own, and I believe that learning how is a process. I didn't want my children victimized during their learning process. I believe there are better ways to grow. I don't save my children from every uncomfortable situation. But I will keep them safe, physically and emotionally, while they're learning how to be adults in this world.

I'm with Imp, there's a balance between protecting your children and letting them learn how to deal with adversity on their own. You can't explain the line because it differs for everyone and in many different situations, but we know for ourselves when it's too much. To create arbitrary guidelines that don't take context into account is going to lead to many more cases of overreaction by the administration. It's a process, and an ever-evolving one at that. It's not always fair, but neither is life.

These *is* a balance - a BALANCE - and keeping children emotionally and physically safe is the adult's responsibility. As children grow, they need to be taught how to do this for themselves, but it is a process. It's not an instant thing. And creating "arbitrary" guidelines that are articulated to the students and the staff means making expectations absolutely clear. Then there is no way to say that there was a misunderstanding or debate on a particular issue. No one gets away with, "I didn't know that was wrong..."

 

[rengadeirishman]

Has nothing whatsoever to do with blame, and I in no way implied that nothing should be done by those in positions of authority about persistent & potentially dangerous bullying of children. Of course there are situations that warrant intervention. To insist otherwise is folly.

However, if someone's always "rescuing" them every time a peer behaves like an asshole, then they'll learn to expect -- or even demand -- such rescue. Victimization is a slippery slope. I'm not sure precisely where the line is between support & unnecessary rescue. I'm sure it varies by circumstance, and some of the examples given clearly tip the scales in favor of intervention. As a parent, it's very difficult to let my children fight their own battles -- even armed with all the advice I can give them. I want to HELP -- to FIX -- and I struggle with that line between helping with the battle while hampering their abillity to deal with life's assholes.

And no, before anyone goes off, I'm not "accusing" anyone here of hampering their children's development. I'm just sharing my personal struggle.

I think the way my father handled it was best, if i had problems, and i brought them to him, he'd always ask if I had tried standing up for myself, if i had even tried to fend them off in anyway. If i had, several times, and been unsuccessful, he would intervene, but if i had not tried my hardest to fend for myself however i could, he wouldnt intervene until i had.

My biggest difficulty was having a pacifist mother and a tough mick father. Very mixed signals, my mom always wanted us to basically curl up and then tell an authority figure, while my dad always told us to handle our business and to go down swinging. As most of you can probably tell, i listened to my father alot more then my mother.

 

[Katyusha]

I'm still trying to get my head around the idea of anyone thinking of you as a spaz....

LOL Apparently a lot of people have trouble with that, but if you could see my 5th, 6th or 7th grade pics, or that horrifically awful and terrible pic of my sisters, my cousins and me at the lake that we keep trying to hide and Dad keeps finding and putting on display, you'd believe it.

 

[sophia jane]

I think it is fair for children to expect that the grown-ups in their life will "rescue" them, to keep them safe. Opinions like this one are the very reason I homeschooled for years. I know that many adults feel like kids need to work this stuff out on their own, and I believe that learning how is a process. I didn't want my children victimized during their learning process. I believe there are better ways to grow. I don't save my children from every uncomfortable situation. But I will keep them safe, physically and emotionally, while they're learning how to be adults in this world.

I agree with you completely here, as well. Children should feel safe in their home and school environments; sure, that's idealistic, but it should be the goal, and when they don't feel safe because of abuse or bullies or whatever, they should expect the adults in their life to rescue them. To make their world safe again.
I don't believe in teaching children through tough experiences. I'm not the type of parent who would throw my kid into the pool and tell him to swim. Learning how to deal with people, how to cope with the world, how to interact, how to stand up to people and tough situations- all these things have to be learned. But that doesn't mean they have to be learned through suffering, and so yeah, I think my job as a parent is to help my kids learn these things safely.

The things I've been through with my son make me very sensitive to this topic. For two years, he's dealt with bullying, and it's damaged him. It's make him even more sensitive than he was before, made him insecure and unable to make many friends. And that's the result with my involvement at the school, with my standing behind him while he dealt with this crap. Without me there, well, I'm not sure what would have happened to him. So yeah, I take offense to the notion that kids need to toughen up and deal with this on their own.

 

[S-Des]

I didn't see this post before I wrote my last one. I agree that suspending kindergartners for kissing is ridiculous. But zero tolerance is also in the atmosphere that the authority figures encourage. To me, it doesn't mean specific punishments for specific crimes. It means everyone understanding how they should treat each other and understanding that bad behavior will bring consequences.

You see, there are the key words....to you. We as individuals handle things differently than authoritarian structures (like schools or court systems). Zero tolerance is always a combination of rules & punishment in institutions. Once they've determined the punishment (like Indiana's life prison sentence for crack dealers), the judges are helpless to say, "But it was a first time offense and I believe the person wasn't actually going to distribute it."

Also, there seem to be a lot of assumptions around here that bullying is as simple as black and white. It rarely is. Kids who bully are very good at not getting caught. Kids who accuse others need to have some sort of proof, and how exactly will that happen? There may be some clear cut cases that administrators look the other way on (the comment about a kid having his head shaved is stunning and would not have been allowed where I went to school), but the vast majority is he said/he(she) said. I certainly hope no one is advocating expelling a student because another accuses him/her of something with no proof.

I can't think of a single case in my life where I actually had a witness (a willing one) to back me up when I was bullied. It would have been nice to have a smoother time in school, but tripling the guards so that I felt safer isn't a better solution.

 

[Guest]

Zero tolerance in a school district is, I think, to insist that each administrator follow the same set of discipline guidelines. No wiggle room.

In large districts (ours has 4 high schools, 6 middle schools, 25 elementaries) it is important that everyone be on the same page.

It also lets the students know that it won't be tolerated.

What our district has also begun to do is make bullying a criminal matter. After several incidences of documented bullying they bring in the school resource officer to talk to the offender's parents.

If nothing is resolved at that point they press charges.

If someone was harassing you every day as you waited for the city bus on the way to work, wouldn't you get the police involved? If your neighbor constantly threw trash in your yard wouldn't that become a civil or criminal matter? If someone defaced your car or other property isn't that worth a call to the police?

Why should we expect our kids to just deal with the same sorts of issues without some assistance?

The kids have the right to learn without being made miserable from a few felons-to-be.

Damn. Middle school is already tough enough.

 

[lesbiaphrodite]

While I do not advocate violence or endorse bullying, I do think that a kid needs to be taught how to put up his or her dukes and fight when it is necessary to defend his or her honor, dignity, self-hood.

 

[Belegon]

I was bullied from fifth to seventh grade.

For a time in my life, I took a very literal view of the Christian religion as I interpreted it through my own bible study. In my opinion, that included pacifism. I saw in the stoic attitude of Jesus toward his tormentors an example and I tried to follow it.

To a fifth or sixth grade criminal, a pacifist is a wonderful victim. Midway through the seventh grade, my parents found a private school that they could afford because the problems were so bad. I once took a beating that lasted more than a half-hour without raising my fists. It ended because my friend Butch arrived and took the lead bully out. That was the catalyst for the school change. I was a mess. Broken nose, broken glasses, blood all over me.

When I changed my view, I did so dramatically. One thing my father taught me that I had ignored during those couple years. Never start a fight, but always end it.

In high school, I fought. A lot. I received suspensions but was never expelled because it was always shown that I had not started it. Just before graduation, the vice-principal in charge of discipline told me that he had never seen anyone get in so many fights without being expelled.

That is closer to the view I have taken since and the one I have tried to teach my kids.

I'm no longer a pacifist. I do believe in violence at times. However, I believe those times are very limited and that it is still something to be avoided whenever possible.

And I do believe and have seen that many bullies back down when stood up to. Unfortunately, not all.

Some times an ass kicking is warranted, IMHO.

Also, I despise the idea of Zero Tolerance policies. I understand what they are intended to accomplish, but I feel they do as much harm as good. What is needed is not codified responses, but the courage to take decisive action.

 

[Just-Legal]

I was bullied throughout High School. One day, whilst on my way to registration, I was pinned up against a wall and spat on - it was all over my hair and my clothes. When I went into registration, despite being a complete wreck and knowing exactly who did it, my tutor simply shrugged and said I couldn't prove it. I wasn't even allowed to go home and clean up. So one day, I snapped, and punched the lead bully, nearly broke her nose.

I was almost suspended. Luckily, one of the teachers had seen the entire incident, not just the punching, and I was instead put in isolation and detention for a week.

With the bullies.

Fucks sake.

 

[rengadeirishman]

While I do not advocate violence or endorse bullying, I do think that a kid needs to be taught how to put up his or her dukes and fight when it is necessary to defend his or her honor, dignity, self-hood.

i find myself agreeing with you often lesbia.

 

[carrie-on]

I was bullied in 6th and 7th grades. It was by my older sister's new husband's little sister, who decided that since she didn't like my sister and couldn't do anything about it, she would take it out on me instead. Whenever there was other family around, she would be all buddy-buddy, but when she was with her friends from school, things were different. Until i finally got fed up and punched her. It was on the weekend away from school, so they weren't involved at all. I bloodied her nose and told her to just leave me alone. We still saw each other at family functions at my sister's house, but we just acted like the other wasn't there.

 

[SemiColon]

I hate to even think about Junior high....for years I had fantasies about going back and beating the crap out of a few people. I think if I did it might give me closure. Now I just wait for the reunion where I can show up as so much hotter and more successful then they are.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

The problem is the system wont protect you from bullies. It cant protect you, simply because of how its organized and operates. No domestic violence injunction ever stopped a bullet or knife or fist. Cops are never around when some turd harasses you.

I've been involved in cases where the victim went to jail after the bully scratched himself leaving. The cops werent there, they dont know. When they catch the guy and he whines...'She scratched me!" guess who goes to jail? She did!

I ALWAYS get you if you fuck with me. I'm patient and creative when I do it.

One of my favorite tricks is to toss road-kill on your roof. When the cops come and you whine about a dead armadillo on the roof, they scratch their heads and wish you good luck getting it down.

 

[carsonshepherd]

I was bullied, both at home and at school. Kids don't like anyone who is different, especially if they're "too smart". I had a terrible relationship with my mother for many years because I was angry at her for doing nothing to protect me or help me, either from school bullies or my older brother. I've heard the term "sibling abuse" now, but to my mother, I needed to "stand up for myself". I was, and am, very much a pacifist and I never wanted to hit or hurt anyone, especially not my brother, whom I loved of course; so I took it. I didn't have a choice. I think that affected my adult relationships to the point where I thought for quite awhile that I had no say in how people treated me. Now I know differently, but I know first hand how constant bullying can make a person angry and powerless, and creates low self-esteem.

My brother has apologized for being such a shit, but I doubt he realizes how the emotional torture affected me; I forgave him, but still can't fully trust him. I'm only now, in my thirties, learning how to set boundaries and hold out for what I want in my relationships.