Bush: "Our nation must defend the sanctity of marriage."

[Bitchslapper]

I'm not upset and I am not immature. You are the one who started insulting me. I think you are the one who needs to do some growing up and realize that it's not nice to attack people for having opinions that are different from yours.

 

[Adrenaline]

actually, it's quite clear that none of you are interested in a civilized, worthwhile discussion, otherwise I would not have been attacked and insulted.

I'm sorry, could you point out where I "attacked and insulted" you? I thought that I had clearly and calmly stated how I interpreted your posts and asked you in all sincerity to point out any misinterpretations I might have had, as my opinion was mostly in line with the others yet you obviously disagreed with our interpretation. You have yet to respond in kind to my posts, and instead sling wild accusations, fail to address my points, hence leading me to believe that you don't think the subject worth your time.

I don't get it. Help a poor noobie out here!

 

[Bitchslapper]

I wasn't talking to you.

I don't have to defend myself to any of you. My opinion is just that, an opinion and it's not wrong no matter how much you want to prove that it is. It is by definition neither right nor wrong. That is why it's caled an opinion.

Forget it, I'm done with this thread. Maybe I'll come back when someone proves to me the rest of you aren't under the influence of alcohol, drugs or bigotry.

 

[Adrenaline]

I wasn't talking to you.

Oh. I guess I got all confused when you quoted my post and stuff.

 

[stephb]

First of all, I have to say that all the bickering in this thread is making me want to scream out loud. Not just from bitchslapper, but from everyone. To me, it's shitting on the issue. Calling people ignorant and reading them the riot act is not going to make anyone see the reasons we have for anything.

That said, I'd like to raise a few points of my own.

Where I come from, marriage is, first and foremost, about love. It is not about politics or children or benefits...it is about love. Without love, what is the point of marriage? Benefits are nice...children should always be thought of first if you have them...and getting married just for politics is absurd. It's done, but not much.

Of course some of the motivations are political...I mean, how would you feel if you were told that you couldn't be on your partner's insurance? Or how would you react if a doctor told you that you had no say in whether or not your partner was put on a ventilator in the hospital if there was no signed agreement before hand? Of COURSE we want these rights! They should be basic and they aren't, and that's why we're fighting! This isn't some small issue. It's a very large one. If the government doesn't acknowledge and accept that people are queer, that they have long term relationships, and that they should get the benefits that all hetero married couples get, it is a violation of the Constitution. And no amount of religious or personal belief can change that fact.

Yes, divorces will happen. Does that mean that heterosexual marriage should be outlawed too? Because in order to make it fair, that would have to be so. And of course I'm being extreme here, but you have to see the point. Not only is it poor judgement on behalf of people in power NOT to give people these basic rights, it is wrong. Regardless of sexual orientation, love happens. Regardless of sexual orientation, people want to have a governmental exceptance of that love. Regardless of sexual orientation, people want equal rights under the constitution. And they should be ALLOWED those rights, no questions asked.

No one should EVER be denied rights because of personal beliefs getting in the way of politics. Ever.

 

[innocentone]

OIE VEHY!!!!! Madre Maria De Dios....


no offence but GOOD GRIEF..... every one take a deep breath....

 

[Pookie]

I'm not upset and I am not immature. You are the one who started insulting me. I think you are the one who needs to do some growing up and realize that it's not nice to attack people for having opinions that are different from yours.

I discussed your post, which I found to be quite illogical and your claims to be unsubstantiated. I disagreed with your statements and explained why with my views and facts. You tossed it off as my being emotional, instead of even trying to debate the issue with me.

If you can't handle having your opinion debated, then don't post it. Otherwise, you're going to end up having quite a few hissy fits here. If that's what you want though, post away. You responded to my opinion first. Did I call you "emotional" for doing so? No. I replied with my own thoughts. This is a "discussion" board. But I see you haven't figured that out yet. You seem to think you should be able to say what you want, and damn anyone if they reply disagreeing with you. It doesn't work like that, dude.

Again, grow up.

 

[Bitchslapper]

I discussed your post, which I found to be quite illogical and your claims to be unsubstantiated. I disagreed with your statements and explained why with my views and facts. You tossed it off as my being emotional, instead of even trying to debate the issue with me.

If you can't handle having your opinion debated, then don't post it. Otherwise, you're going to end up having quite a few hissy fits here. If that's what you want though, post away. You responded to my opinion first. Did I call you "emotional" for doing so? No. I replied with my own thoughts. This is a "discussion" board. But I see you haven't figured that out yet. You seem to think you should be able to say what you want, and damn anyone if they reply disagreeing with you. It doesn't work like that, dude.

Again, grow up.

I think you got that backwards, "dude." You are the one who is obviously getting upset here, that's why you continue to insult me with comments such as "grow up" and so forth. You are the one having a hissy fit. In fact quite often when people resort to personal attacks it means they're wrong, they know it and they have no other recourse.

You did not simply reply with your own thoughts, you expressed your opinion in a manner that made it seem as though you were stating facts, that I'm supposed to accept your wisdom blindly.

In any case, if you continue to harass me, I will report you.

 

[Pookie]

I think you got that backwards, "dude." You are the one who is obviously getting upset here, that's why you continue to insult me with comments such as "grow up" and so forth. You are the one having a hissy fit. In fact quite often when people resort to personal attacks it means they're wrong, they know it and they have no other recourse.

You did not simply reply with your own thoughts, you expressed your opinion in a manner that made it seem as though you were stating facts, that I'm supposed to accept your wisdom blindly.

In any case, if you continue to harass me, I will report you.

You can read my post however you want. But, you're the one that chose to call everyones reply to you "emotional." My reply did quote facts and my opinion. But you don't seem to care to actually read peoples posts and reply to them, other than to dismiss them as "emotional." How mature of you. I'm confident in what I said is why it may seem to come across as "fact" to you. That's your issue though; not mine. You're free to defend your position too, if you want. But that's up to you. Again, it's a discussion board. Get used to it.

But whatever. You're in for a rude awakening though if you think you can post opinions and not ever have them discussed here. Remember, you originally replied to one of MY posted opinions with your own. But gawd forbid anyone discuss and disagree with YOUR opinion.

I've admitted when I've been wrong in the past. I admitted it in one of my replies to you in this very thread. But you've been to busy being pissy because someone DARED to discuss your posted opinion ... on a discussion board. Once again, grow up. If you feel insulted by that, tough shit.

 

[Bitchslapper]

You know, you're actually quite amusing lately. You are the one who insists on insulting me and trying to prove my opinion wrong (which can't be done because it is an OPINION). I can handle my opinion being discussed, as long as the other person discussing it doesn't act as though they know everything or that their word is law.

So far you have insulted my intelligence, my maturity and my politics. I've already warned you once, but maybe you didn't see it. so I will tell you again: Continue to harass me and I will report you.

 

[Pookie]

You know, you're actually quite amusing lately. You are the one who insists on insulting me and trying to prove my opinion wrong (which can't be done because it is an OPINION). I can handle my opinion being discussed, as long as the other person discussing it doesn't act as though they know everything or that their word is law.

So far you have insulted my intelligence, my maturity and my politics. I've already warned you once, but maybe you didn't see it. so I will tell you again: Continue to harass me and I will report you.

I replied to your opinion, just as you originally did mine. Remember that? But all you can seem to do is complain about my expressing my opinion about your reply to me. You DO know that this is a DISCUSSION BOARD?

Please report me. Please, will ya? Pretty please?

Here's Etoile's PM link ... https://forum.literotica.com/private.php?s=&action=newmessage&userid=9052

and here is Q's ... https://forum.literotica.com/private.php?s=&action=newmessage&userid=209207

Report me to either one ... or both. Do you want the link to Laurel as well? I soooo want you to report me. *nods*

 

[Bitchslapper]

Is that supposed to be funny?

You don't want to discuss the issue. All you have done is attack me and insult me. Well, I'm done with it.

 

[stephb]

We COULD get back to the topic at hand...

 

[Pookie]

Is that supposed to be funny?

You don't want to discuss the issue. All you have done is attack me and insult me. Well, I'm done with it.

No. It was meant as a challenge.

So ... I don't want to discuss the issue, huh? All I've done is "attack" and "insult" you, have I got that right? Hmmmm ...

Why do gays and lesbians want to get married? For the same reasons that straight couples want to get married. Do homosexuals want to get in on all the "broken-home fun"? No, we want to get in on the 50% that aren't getting divorced. Who knows? We might just cause the divorce rate to lower.

It basically comes down to discrimination. Allowing even one right or privilege to be unconstitutionally denied to us is a horrible precedent to make. If we don't stand up for our own rights/privaleges, who will? If homosexuals were to say it's okay to deny marriage to us, then where does it stop? Who gets to draw the line, and where? Scary.

What reason is that? Why does anyone want to get married? That's my point. Why do it in the first place? Getting married when you don't plan on raising kids with the person is like giving a fish a drink of water.

And if we're talking about discrimination, well that's just full of holes, because no matter what we do, some group will always have an advantage over another. Absolute equality and democracy do not mix.

Like I said, it's just to make a point. You really don't want gay marriage, otherwise you'd just get a civil union and save yourself the heart trouble. It's political. How many homosexuals would rush out to get married once it's legal? A whole bunch I bet. How many of them will stay married? Not any more than straight or bi people, and I can guarantee you that. Gays aren't any more perfect than the rest of humanity, and thier relationships sure as hell aren't automatically more stable either.

Are you asking why people want to get married? They do for quite a number of reasons. Not all couples plan to have children, but still seek out marriage for their own reasons.

I assume that your point is, "why do it in the first place?" Besides the emotional and symbolic reasons, here is why (info from Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund) ...

On the order of 1,400 legal rights are conferred upon married couples in the U.S. Typically these are composed of about 400 state benefits and over 1,000 federal benefits. Among them are the rights to:
- joint parenting;
- joint adoption;
- joint foster care, custody, and visitation (including non-biological parents);
- status as next-of-kin for hospital visits and medical decisions where one partner is too ill to be competent;
- joint insurance policies for home, auto and health;
- dissolution and divorce protections such as community property and child support;
- immigration and residency for partners from other countries;
- inheritance automatically in the absence of a will;
- joint leases with automatic renewal rights in the event one partner dies or leaves the house or apartment;
- inheritance of jointly-owned real and personal property through the right of survivorship (which avoids the time and expense and taxes in probate);
- benefits such as annuities, pension plans, Social Security, and Medicare;
- spousal exemptions to property tax increases upon the death of one partner who is a co-owner of the home;
- veterans' discounts on medical care, education, and home loans; joint filing of tax returns;
- joint filing of customs claims when traveling;
- wrongful death benefits for a surviving partner and children;
- bereavement or sick leave to care for a partner or child;
- decision-making power with respect to whether a deceased partner will be cremated or not and where to bury him or her;
- crime victims' recovery benefits;
- loss of consortium tort benefits;
- domestic violence protection orders;
- judicial protections and evidentiary immunity;
- and more

Do you still think it's like "giving a fish a drink of water"?

Most of these legal and economic benefits cannot be privately arranged or contracted for. For example, absent a legal (or civil) marriage, there is no guaranteed joint responsibility to the partner and to third parties (including children) in such areas as child support, debts to creditors, taxes, etc. In addition, private employers and institutions often give other economic privileges and other benefits (special rates or memberships) only to married couples. And, of course, when people cannot marry, they are denied all the emotional and social benefits and responsibilities of marriage as well.

"And if we're talking about discrimination, well that's just full of holes, because no matter what we do, some group will always have an advantage over another. Absolute equality and democracy do not mix."

Your argument that homosexuals shouldn't fight for a privilege that is denied to them in violation of the US Constitution because "absolute equality" isn't possible is ludicrous. Interracial couples were denied the privilege to marry with many of the same arguments used against homosexuals. Should they have stopped fighting discrimination against them that violated the US Constitution because "absolute equality" isn't possible? Or because marriage isn't worth it ... in your eyes?

What if homosexuals weren't allowed to drive. Should the Government continue to deny homosexuals the privilege to drive too? Not all drivers will have a perfect safety record. We could just ride bicycles, you know. Allowing homosexuals (especially those without kids) to have a drivers license would be like giving a fish a glass of water ... according to your logic.

I hope you're not as wishy-washy with the other rights and privileges you have, if they're ever threatened. Just because every marriage may not be successful doesn't mean it's not treasured by those for who it is successful.

Congratulations everyone for completely missing my point and assuming I'm an asinine bigot. I am approaching the issue logically, not emotionally. Unfortunately I cannot say the same for all of you.

In short, I agree with Svenskaflicka (sp?).

Now ... who doesn't want to discuss the issue?

I discussed the problems and inaccuracies I saw with what you posted. You got all defensive about me questioning YOUR opinion of MY opinion, which you've waffled on several times now. You said I didn't really want gay marriage, that it was just to make a point. Now just who is expressing their opinion in a manner that makes it seem as though they are stating facts, that we're supposed to accept their wisdom blindly. Hmmm??? Do you remember saying something like that? Or do I need to point it out to you? I'm just suppose to accept what you say blindly, huh? But it's okay for you to question what I posted? Again, it doesn't work like that ... ON A DISCUSSION BOARD. Sheesh.

So ... are you ready to respond to my question YET? ...

"Do you still think it's like 'giving a fish a drink of water'?"

Well? I've asked the question three times now. You made the claim, and I responded to it. So will you answer it? Or are you just gonna continue to call us all emotional?

 

[Adrenaline]

Uhhhhh....grouphug?

 

[Pookie]

Uhhhhh....grouphug?

I like this topic better.

 

[Zergplex]

Zergplex Says

Jeez I don't read a topic for a day or two and look at all the fun I missed ^_~ *applauds Pookie* way to tell 'em.

Though I have to say it, Bitchslapper I love your avater.

-Zergplex

 

[fsumusic1981]

When the democratic primaries come around to your state, show the more centrist democratic candidates that they need to move to the left by voting for Sharpton or Kucinich. They are the only two candidates who support gay marraige. Front-runner John Kerry does not.

-Peace

 

[Svenskaflicka]

In short, I think Svenskaflicka expressed him/herself much better than you did, even though you both share the same opinion.

Thank you.

I wouldn't say that I share Slap's opinion, but he/she might share mine.

And if you read my sigline, you might pick up on the hint that I'm female.

 

[Bitchslapper]

Thank you.

I wouldn't say that I share Slap's opinion, but he/she might share mine.

Same difference. If I share your opinion, then you share mine. You said you don't believe in marriage, but you support gay marriage and I said the same thing. Hence, we agree.

 

[Bitchslapper]

Re: Zergplex Says

Jeez I don't read a topic for a day or two and look at all the fun I missed ^_~ *applauds Pookie* way to tell 'em.

He hasn't "told me" in any way. The fact remains he has resorted to insulting my intelligence, my maturity and my politics (apparentyl I'm a bigot regardless of the fact I support gay marriage). He is the one in the wrong here, not me.

 

[Pookie]

Re: Re: Zergplex Says

He hasn't "told me" in any way. The fact remains he has resorted to insulting my intelligence, my maturity and my politics (apparentyl I'm a bigot regardless of the fact I support gay marriage). He is the one in the wrong here, not me.

"He" who?

 

[Pookie]

Re: Re: Re: Zergplex Says

"He" who?

Well, Bitchslapper? Who is the "he" that you claim is insulting your intelligence and lack of maturity? I assume you are referring to me when you quoted Zergplex, but it's hard to assume anything with you the way you keep changing your positions. Can you quote one place where I called you a bigot? I didn't think so.

Just because you don't know what you're talking about doesn't make you a bigot ... just an idiot. Especially if you don't know the difference between a chick and a guy, dude.

Well? Are you gonna answer my question, or continue to avoid it like you've been doing. Here it is for the fourth time ...

"Do you still think it's like 'giving a fish a drink of water'?"

 

[Pookie]

A little message from me to you, Bitchslapper.

http://www.geocities.com/pookiestories/voice/Bitchslapper.mp3

(safe link - a new voice file (mp3) I just did especially for Bitchslapper)


Edited because some said link wasn't working. Cut and paste it if it doesn't.

2nd edit - a better link: http://home.hot.rr.com/allmypictures/Bitchslapper2.mp3

 

[Bitchslapper]

Let me get this straight. I talk about it (and maintain the same position, might I add, you are the one trying to make it seem as though I changed it) and you flame me. I put you on my ignore list and drop the issue and you still flame me. So what do you want?

So what if I didn't know you're a "chick." So what? There was no way for me to know. It's not as if you specify your gender in your s/n, title or sigline. In any case, that is not the issue and it never has been. You accuse me of avoiding of changing the subject, yet you nitpick me on such a small issue.

No, you never used the word "bigot" but you implied it not so subtly. You have however used the word "idiot," among other insults. What I don't get is if you are still attacking me and insulting me, why you continue to insist that I am the one who is not willing to have civilized, calm discussion about it. I would like to see you respond to me just ocne without insulting me, just to see if you're capable of it.

I would also like to draw attention to the fact that I have not been attacking or insulting you here.

The fact is, I support gay marriage (and I always have, I've never changed my position on that). But you can't seem to accept that for some reason. Is it because you insist on villifying me or because you are not sure about your own stance on the issue?