Changes in Attitudes.

[Ishmael]

I was reading this blurb this AM and thought it worthy of discussion.

Young Blacks, Old Blacks

The part that focused my attention is this;

The overarching anger for local youth, he said, is rooted in the sense that they are caught in a vise, with police harassment on one side and little economic opportunity on the other.

“It’s a socioeconomic thing,” he said. “It begins with getting a traffic ticket. You get pulled over and get this huge ticket. In some parts of the city, tickets actually double.” Get a couple of those and soon “most people can’t afford their bills.”

There are a lot of thoughts packed into those two paragraphs. Stating with the 'police harassment' notion. Is it really police harassment, or could it be more of a function of attitude towards authority? The attitude notion is repeated often enough throughout the article. Not all interactions with the police are harassment, unless you believe it to be so. And the choice of using traffic tickets as the example is a stretch, after all the receiving of a traffic citation is based on the recipients behavior. It's not harassment, it's merely the officers doing their jobs.

That being said it is undeniable that the impact of traffic fines, or most fines these days, hits the lowest quitile of earners the hardest. To one man a $100 fine is pocket change, to another it's a choice between the rent or eating. And in some locals fines for minor infractions have become excessive.

Then there is the jobs issue. In that respect the black community, in reality all communities, have been poorly served by the educational system. Listening (reading) the statements of many of the youth of Ferguson it's obvious that they speak barely intelligible English. If that is a reflection of their overall education it's painfully obvious that they are not going to qualify for any job that might be considered to have a future. Education in general and command of the English language in particular are the prime indicators of economic success throughout the individuals lifetime. It's easy to see why these young people are frustrated and angry. Where they make their mistake is by blaming this on discrimination on the part of the employer and that just isn't the case. The discrimination is taking place in the educational system, a system put in place and perpetuated by the very governmental bodies they demand 'fix' the employment situation. The very real problem is that these youths are essentially unemployable for any meaningful work out side of the possibility of the construction trades and those jobs are going to the illegals.

My fear is that at least two generations of young blacks are lost. They really have no future and it isn't entirely their fault. And without a sever overhaul of the educational systems even more generations will be lost and the divide will grow even deeper. And the anger and frustration will grow because after all, they have their High School Diploma in hand proving that they were educated and they truly don't understand just how ignorant they really are.

Ishmael

 

[Saint Peter]

Grandpa said your generation would fuck up the world.



Grandpa was right.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

It is sad.

Having said that, I will point out that I know some fine young men raised in the church who, unlike Petey, can articulate a clear and complex thought on most subjects who are able to be competitive in the labor force, but they are still hampered by the new lack of opportunity afforded by the ACA and are struggling to balance two or more part-time jobs for very low wage. Police harassment and searching for discrimination under every rock and in every utterance of a white person are hardly their highest priorities in life.

 

[Lancecastor]

The real issue is hate... and the USA is full of it.

Blacks, whites, women, men, Christians, jews...all are angrier than in the 1960's.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Seems to be dragging Canada down with it...

 

[Ishmael]

The real issue is hate... and the USA is full of it.

Blacks, whites, women, men, Christians, jews...all are angrier than in the 1960's.

Really? Well, on reflection perhaps it is. And that too can be laid at the steps of the educational system. It seems as if ANY disagreement, honest disagreement, is immediately promoted to the level of 'hate.' Of course that's nothing more than a rhetorical trick, used primarily but not exclusively, by the left to inflame emotions. Sadly more and more seem to allow themselves to become entrapped by that rhetoric, particularly the less educated. While some of the more educated resort to the tactic when they have nothing meaningful to say.

Ishmael

 

[RobDownSouth]

It is sad.

Having said that, I will point out that I know some fine young men raised in the church who, unlike Petey, can articulate a clear and complex thought on most subjects who are able to be competitive in the labor force, but they are still hampered by the new lack of opportunity afforded by the ACA and are struggling to balance two or more part-time jobs for very low wage. Police harassment and searching for discrimination under every rock and in every utterance of a white person are hardly their highest priorities in life.

Wow, you're admitting that #ThosePeople can sometimes #ActCiviized?

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Really? Well, on reflection perhaps it is. And that too can be laid at the steps of the educational system. It seems as if ANY disagreement, honest disagreement, is immediately promoted to the level of 'hate.' Of course that's nothing more than a rhetorical trick, used primarily but not exclusively, by the left to inflame emotions. Sadly more and more seem to allow themselves to become entrapped by that rhetoric, particularly the less educated. While some of the more educated resort to the tactic when they have nothing meaningful to say.

Ishmael

KO's list of the ten types of troll in the innocent Ute discussions was particularly instructive including the implicit admonition to snap judgment and indictment of the police imploring the reader to not wait for the facts, but to imbibe and wallow in the emotion of the moment, for even if the story proved not to be true in the particular, it is most certainly true in the general.

 

[Ishmael]

KO's list of the ten types of troll in the innocent Ute discussions was particularly instructive including the implicit admonition to snap judgment and indictment of the police imploring the reader to not wait for the facts, but to imbibe and wallow in the emotion of the moment, for even if the story proved not to be true in the particular, it is most certainly true in the general.

Reminiscent of S. Jackson's "The Lottery", without the solemn formality of the drawing of course.

Ishmael

 

[RobDownSouth]

KO's list of the ten types of troll in the innocent Ute discussions was particularly instructive including the implicit admonition to snap judgment and indictment of the police imploring the reader to not wait for the facts, but to imbibe and wallow in the emotion of the moment, for even if the story proved not to be true in the particular, it is most certainly true in the general.

That article could've been titled "AJ's Guide to Crisis Manipulation". I could probably come up with examples of you using at least 8 of the intellectually dishonest techniques identified in the article.

Judging from the amount of howling and angst coming from you over that article, I suspect you also noticed quite a bit of your techniques as well.
:nods:

 

[Lancecastor]

Really? Well, on reflection perhaps it is. And that too can be laid at the steps of the educational system. It seems as if ANY disagreement, honest disagreement, is immediately promoted to the level of 'hate.' Of course that's nothing more than a rhetorical trick, used primarily but not exclusively, by the left to inflame emotions. Sadly more and more seem to allow themselves to become entrapped by that rhetoric, particularly the less educated. While some of the more educated resort to the tactic when they have nothing meaningful to say.

Ishmael

I would suggest that the only "rhetorical trick" being used is yours.

Year after year, the OECD for example tracks and ranks a wide variety of Quality of Life metrics.

The USA is quantifiably more violent, less peaceful, dirtier, unhealthier, etc...than many other countries.

If you are looking for a correlation, perhaps it's money and your love of violence.

The USA has the highest per capita annual income of any country in the world...yet it also has enormous challenges with "attitudes".

The USA is also one of the few industrialized countries where sex is dirty and violence is celebrated.

And then of course to top it off, you have a gigantic problem with systemic racism.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Reminiscent of S. Jackson's "The Lottery", without the solemn formality of the drawing of course.

Ishmael

To paraphrase a somewhat recent quote, "a high-tech stoning."

 

[Wat_Tyler]

I find that kids in general spend too much time texting and tend to look at work as something that involves logging hours as opposed to accomplishing tasks.


The ones I have run into who "get it" as far as what a work day is spent a lot of time with a grandparent.


I did overhear one kid telling his boss that the cops were "out to get him". The boss called bullshit and told him, they don't pull you for going the speed limit in a car with current paperwork and working lights. I'm not sure the kid believed him, but he quit bitching.


And then there was the young guy who told me that "they're lying to these kids in school." It was fascinating. Details? Who needs details . . . .

 

[RobDownSouth]

To paraphrase a somewhat recent quote, "a high-tech stoning."

Classic #VictimBlaming once again.

 

[Lancecastor]

Blah blah blah.

All old people complain about "those kids today", always have.

The only change I have seen in the people of the USA in my time is they've become angry at the world.

Used to be American Tourists trotted around the world with a sense of superiority and pride....locals took their money and snickered at their clothes and attitude.

You were always clowns, but you were happy clowns as long as there was a good supply of new stuff for you to buy.

Since 9/11, Americans have been afraid.

And resentful at learning they're not universally loved.

So the USA has battened down the hatches, bombing the snot out of the Boogeyman (wherever you are told he is this year) and turning on each other at home as a supplement.

The USA needs to get its groove back, that's all.

I find that kids in general spend too much time texting and tend to look at work as something that involves logging hours as opposed to accomplishing tasks.


The ones I have run into who "get it" as far as what a work day is spent a lot of time with a grandparent.


I did overhear one kid telling his boss that the cops were "out to get him". The boss called bullshit and told him, they don't pull you for going the speed limit in a car with current paperwork and working lights. I'm not sure the kid believed him, but he quit bitching.


And then there was the young guy who told me that "they're lying to these kids in school." It was fascinating. Details? Who needs details . . . .

 

[Wat_Tyler]

Blah blah blah.

Sounds about right.

 

[bg23]

yeah, but the thing is, even if it were a great educational system, kids who don't have a steady place to live, who worry constantly about where their next meal is, who worry about their parents, their siblings, getting in trouble with the law, etc, etc - they're not going to do well.

it's hard to focus on reading and writing when your family can barely afford rent. you can start by fixing education but in the meantime they still need to be able to survive - and you need a stable income for that to happen.

 

[Lancecastor]

Sounds about right.

Muff-lite.

 

[Wat_Tyler]

Muff-lite.

Killer Muff-lite???


Your heroine/nemesis???


Sounds about right . . . .

 

[Ishmael]

yeah, but the thing is, even if it were a great educational system, kids who don't have a steady place to live, who worry constantly about where their next meal is, who worry about their parents, their siblings, getting in trouble with the law, etc, etc - they're not going to do well.

it's hard to focus on reading and writing when your family can barely afford rent. you can start by fixing education but in the meantime they still need to be able to survive - and you need a stable income for that to happen.

The problem with what you are saying is that you are describing a cycle. One begets the other and where and how do you break that cycle?

Ishmael

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Look, you have millions of Lance's screaming at these kids about how they cannot make it in this racist society of hate and they simply buy into it and stop striving feeling that education is a dead end. The more government does for them, the more revenue must be confiscated and the less we can do for ourselves. This breeds resentment of government and its institutions. They hate the cops, we hate the IRS. They will not pay attention to their teachers, we cannot ignore the constant charges leveled at us such as bigotry and racism.

If Canada were more ethnically diverse, then Lance could focus his time and effort on the hate in his country.

Same goes for down-under.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

The problem with what you are saying is that you are describing a cycle. One begets the other and where and how do you break that cycle?

Ishmael

Especially when there is great political power and wealth to be accrued in the battle and in the division...



... where every circumstance is explained by the same rhetoric.

 

[eyer]

You all just need to shut up and keep suckin'.

 

[Ishmael]

Especially when there is great political power and wealth to be accrued in the battle and in the division...



... where every circumstance is explained by the same rhetoric.

Exactly.

Ishmael

 

[RobDownSouth]

The problem with what you are saying is that you are describing a cycle. One begets the other and where and how do you break that cycle?

Ishmael

Bingo. Ish, you've described the problem succinctly. This may be a first for you.

Now then, You've correctly identified the problem. Since you usually have all the easy answers, why not share your thoughts on how to break the cycle (presumably without breaking the bank)???

For purposes of discussion, let's take "lock 'em all up and throw away the key" off the table.