Companion to the Five in Five

[Sara Crewe]

Well, let's see. This should be pretty basic.

Just put your hand there. No, no. There. And do, um, let me show you. Yeah. That.

Just one hand? Two hands are almost always better than one. I think I slide the other one in your pocket and see what I can find.

 

[Tzara]

Just write, J. It will make you feel so much better. You have to stuff to say.

Well, you do. Sara says so.

And here I get to trot out my own Rule (I know, sigh, again?): Don't be afraid to be bad. Just write something and let it go. You, actually, are much more likely than most of us to be able to bang something out that has merit. I absolutely suck (oh, shit, I am using that word again) at it. You are a pretty damn good spontaneous writer, so just sit down, write something, and if you don't think it has any future, forget about it.

None of us are likely to be T.S. Eliot, after all. Don't mean we can't write, though.

 

[Sara Crewe]

That last line says it all.

I remember how I felt when that mistymommie person stole some of our work from here and off Clean Sheets. and then after her, there was another one who just stole from poets here, as far as we could determine.

I remember thinking how hard I had worked on mine from Clean Sheets--Bandora's Pox, (her affliction), and knowing how hard it is to complete something are actually proud of, yes, I will agree with you, and call myself selfish in that respect. I was so angry that she accepted what people said about those poems as if she had toiled over every line, sounded out each syllable and pored over every effin word. I hated her for it initially, now I realize what she did is because she is lazy. I really really dislike lazy, you cant be lazy and write poetry. It's kinda hard...

and dammit, you two are poets. you know it, and T, I have always thought you were brilliant, Tzara, and you know it.

see y'all later...I have home made chocolate cake waiting on me.

I'm laughing 'cause anyone who doesn't know my real first name(sorry to anyone who actually thought my name was Sara-hate to shatter illusions) is going to be totally confused by J's use of T. and then listing Tzara.

You can't be lazy and write poetry. Sometimes it's fast but often it's slow but it almost always takes effort.

Thanks for the compliments and enjoy your cake.

 

[Tzara]

Just one hand? Two hands are almost always better than one. I think I slide the other one in your pocket and see what I can find.

Loose, um, change.

But I really think it would be better if I closely, um, inspect, um um, your, um, fingernails, ummm.

Yep, OK. All clean.

 

[Sara Crewe]

Well, you do. Sara says so.

And here I get to trot out my own Rule (I know, sigh, again?): Don't be afraid to be bad. Just write something and let it go. You, actually, are much more likely than most of us to be able to bang something out that has merit. I absolutely suck (oh, shit, I am using that word again) at it. You are a pretty damn good spontaneous writer, so just sit down, write something, and if you don't think it has any future, forget about it.

None of us are likely to be T.S. Eliot, after all. Don't mean we can't write, though.

I have decided you need to have a 'suck jar'. Every time you use the word suck in a negative way as a reference to yourself or anything you have created, you write me an IOU and put it in the jar. The 'what' will be determined at a later date. I'm serious. Don't mess with me. I'm devious and evil.

 

[Sara Crewe]

Loose, um, change.

But I really think it would be better if I closely, um, inspect, um um, your, um, fingernails, ummm.

Yep, OK. All clean.

Hmm, put it doesn't feel loose at all.


*smiling* What do you see when you look at my nails?

 

[normal jean]

I'm laughing 'cause anyone who doesn't know that my real first name(sorry to anyone who actually thought my name was Sara-hate to shatter illusions) is going to be totally confused by J's use of T. and then listing Tzara.

You can't be lazy and write poetry. Sometimes it's fast but often it's slow but it almost always takes effort.

Thanks for the compliments and enjoy your cake.

the cake is already down the hatch and I left y'all something on 30/30.

and believe it or not, for a second, I actually confused my T's and Tz's

 

[Sara Crewe]

the cake is already down the hatch and I left y'all something on 30/30.

and believe it or not, for a second, I actually confused my T's and Tz's

I'll go have a look.


Confusing people is good. I make a habit of it.

 

[normal jean]

I'm laughing 'cause anyone who doesn't know my real first name(sorry to anyone who actually thought my name was Sara-hate to shatter illusions) is going to be totally confused by J's use of T. and then listing Tzara.

You can't be lazy and write poetry. Sometimes it's fast but often it's slow but it almost always takes effort.

Thanks for the compliments and enjoy your cake.

I promise I wiill never tell anyone your real name is Tinkerbell...uh-oh...

 

[Sara Crewe]

I promise I wiill never tell anyone your real name is Tinkerbell...uh-oh...

Dammit! No more pixie dust for you.


You're supposed to call me TB for short!!


*grooms wings*

 

[Tzara]

I have decided you need to have a 'suck jar'. Every time you use the word suck in a negative way as a reference to yourself or anything you have created, you write me an IOU and put it in the jar. The 'what' will be determined at a later date. I'm serious. Don't mess with me. I'm devious and evil.

Are you entirely sure you want to establish a "suck jar" for me?

I mean, think about it.


I am all over that idea myself. I am just kinda looking out for your, ahem, reputation. Or looking for it. I think it might be lost.

 

[Tzara]

*smiling* What do you see when you look at my nails?

Really nice cuticles?

 

[Sara Crewe]

Are you entirely sure you want to establish a "suck jar" for me?

I mean, think about it.


I am all over that idea myself. I am just kinda looking out for your, ahem, reputation. Or looking for it. I think it might be lost.

Oh, I think about everything. Nothing I say or do is accidental.

It's gone. Floatin' down stream on my consciousness...

I can kinda pull it all off though--I can honetly say suck jar and keep the look on my face totally innocent. It's a talent.

 

[Sara Crewe]

Really nice cuticles?

Close your eyes and look.

 

[Tzara]

Oh, I think about everything. Nothing I say or do is accidental.

It's gone. Floatin' down stream on my consciousness...

I can kinda pull it all off though--I can honetly say suck jar and keep the look on my face totally innocent. It's a talent.

I do have to say that "suck jar" sounds like something out of American Pie or Porky's or one of those kinds of monumental cinematic achievements. Have you been in films, Ms. Crewe?

 

[Sara Crewe]

I do have to say that "suck jar" sounds like something out of American Pie or Porky's or one of those kinds of monumental cinematic achievements. Have you been in films, Ms. Crewe?

I am not guilty of the suck part of that infantile phrase--that was all you. I just added jar. So, really, I am the innocent one.


You are most likely the first last person ever to refer to Porkey's and American Pie as films.

 

[sassynyc]

nick, very nice visuals in Michelia. intricate descriptions make your poem almost palpable.

 

[Eluard]

I'll just briefly point out that we said the same thing:

You: Passive creates distance from the reader which for the most part is a bad thing.
Me: The problem with passive voice, I think, is that it distances the reader.​

OK. Group hug time!

Y'know I love you both like the brother and sister I never had (you can fight over who is who), but the sceptic in me, not to mention the hardened empiricist, wants to know: where are the statistical studies on this, how large was the sample size, how many examples of sentences in the passive voice were presented, and what were the verbal responses to said sentences by this phantom collection of sentence- appreciators (*Munch scream face "I feel so…so… distant all of a sudden"). I mean come on — don't these kinds of generalisations stir the sceptic in you too? Just a teensy bit?

 

[Sara Crewe]

Y'know I love you both like the brother and a sister I never had (you can fight over who is who), but the sceptic in me, not to mention the hardened empiricist, wants to know: where are the statistical studies on this, how large was the sample size, how many examples of sentences in the passive voice were presented, and what were the verbal responses to said sentences by this phantom collection of sentence- appreciators (*Munch scream face "I feel so…so… distant all of a sudden"). I mean come on — don't these kind of generalisations stir the sceptic in you too? Just a teensy bit?

Aw. I'm El's Lit sister (I hope).

I don't generally like 'rules' about right ways or wrong ways to do anything. They usually make the hair on the back of my neck stand up so I won't argue this as a 'rule'.

I'll just say that I am far more likely to connect to a piece of writing, whether poetry or prose, if the voice is active. So, for me it is mainly a style preference. I can definitely see that there are times when one chooses to write in a passive voice for a reason but when I criticized it I wasn't talking about those specific incidences.

I guess I am just staying that for me active and passive voice are not interchangeable in how I receive them as a reader.

I'll argue with you more though, if you want.

 

[Angeline]

Y'know I love you both like the brother and a sister I never had (you can fight over who is who), but the sceptic in me, not to mention the hardened empiricist, wants to know: where are the statistical studies on this, how large was the sample size, how many examples of sentences in the passive voice were presented, and what were the verbal responses to said sentences by this phantom collection of sentence- appreciators (*Munch scream face "I feel so…so… distant all of a sudden"). I mean come on — don't these kind of generalisations stir the sceptic in you too? Just a teensy bit?

I suspect most people educated in the USA are taught that passive voice is, if not "bad" to use, not preferable to the active voice. Perhaps that is not the case in other countries where English is the predominant language; I really don't know. But I do know that most Americans are taught to avoid it everywhere but informative writing. Research writing is big on passive voice because the active first- or second-person voice is seen as anecdotal and therefore less empirically valid.

I think there's a place for it in any type of writing as there is really anything, given the right context. There are poems where for reasons of voice or tone, one might choose the passive voice. It's a case-by-case thing, isn't it?

 

[Eluard]

I suspect most people educated in the USA are taught that passive voice is, if not "bad" to use, not preferable to the active voice. Perhaps that is not the case in other countries where English is the predominant language; I really don't know. But I do know that most Americans are taught to avoid it everywhere but informative writing. Research writing is big on passive voice because the active first- or second-person voice is seen as anecdotal and therefore less empirically valid.

I think there's a place for it in any type of writing as there is really anything, given the right context. There are poems where for reasons of voice or tone, one might choose the passive voice. It's a case-by-case thing, isn't it?

Yes, I agree. It is what works in a particular instance.

I just think you Nth Americans aren't aware how parochial* this advice is — I don't think this is regarded as a "rule" in the rest of the world. I had never heard of it until I started to get nagged on it by the Microsoft Word grammar checker. (And then I would laugh out loud at its crazy suggestions!)


*Of course it seems a little weird to call it 'parochial' given that Nth America holds a very large proportion of all the English speakers!

 

[Sara Crewe]

Yes, I agree. It is what works in a particular instance.

I just think you Nth Americans aren't aware how parochial* this advice is — I don't think this is regarded as a "rule" in the rest of the world. I had never heard of it until I started to get nagged on it by the Microsoft Word grammar checker. (And then I would laugh out loud at its crazy suggestions!)


*Of course it seems a little weird to call it 'parochial' given that Nth America holds a very large proportion of all the English speakers!

I think good writing is probably always going to involve a wide variety of sentence constructions. Passive construction has a place.

I think some people consistently write in a passive voice thinking that it is effective as a style device all on its own--that it adds an air of sophistication to their writing. When it's used incorrectly, I think most passages or poems end up looking amateurish, verbose and desperately in need of a good editing.

 

[Sara Crewe]

And...

I think what bothers me when I see someone writing in passive voice throughout a poem seemingly without reason in terms of a connection to the subject matter, is that it feels manipulative and inauthentic. People resort to passive voice often when they are desperate to end a line on a particular word. If that construction isn't smooth and seamless, I think it looks like a cheap magic trick.

"Sure nobody would ever choose to say these words in this particular order and there are million easier ways to write them but don't pay attention to that---just look at this beautiful word I managed to put at the end of this line.


You know what I need El. I need you to show me an amazing poem written in a passive voice. You do that and I'll shut up. Or there's duct tape over there in the corner. That will work too.

 

[Angeline]

Yes, I agree. It is what works in a particular instance.

I just think you Nth Americans aren't aware how parochial* this advice is — I don't think this is regarded as a "rule" in the rest of the world. I had never heard of it until I started to get nagged on it by the Microsoft Word grammar checker. (And then I would laugh out loud at its crazy suggestions!)


*Of course it seems a little weird to call it 'parochial' given that Nth America holds a very large proportion of all the English speakers!

I could fillibuster on my opinions about the lousy state of writing education in America. I think it's better than when I was in school; there's more emphasis now on daily writing and portfolio assessment, as opposed to grammar drills and mechanics exercises. But it's still as good as the person who teaches it, and most people I've known who taught writing either weren't that good themselves or didn't have enough time to assign lots of writing because it takes so long to give feedback well. When I taught seventh grade, I generally had between 30 and 40 kids in my classroom times four classes per day (plus homeroom and study hall or whatever assignment they gave me). You know how long it takes to grade and give feedback on 120-160 papers? I tried to get around it by having kids correct each other's writing (guided by me) during class, but it's still exhausting work. I'm sure Sara (even though she's in Canada) and other teachers here can attest to this.

The last time I taught writing to school-aged kids was about a year ago. Not much had changed. Still hard to find time to get them to write as much as they need to get good at it, and now there's video games and cell phones and computers (besides tv) competing for their attention.

When my children were young and I took them to play at friends' houses, I was often dismayed to see that there were few, if any, books in others' homes (I tried to steer them to more literate families, but kids don't always make great choices in pals). We don't seem to value reading much anymore, at least not in America. And I can quote research with very large samples showing that there's a significant relationship between number of books in the home, whether the family gets a daily newspaper, whether they use libraries and so on and performance in all academic areas.

Sad but true. And the first thing I do whenever I get new word processing is disable the grammar checker. They're all awful as far as I can see!

 

[Eluard]

From Wikipedia:

"Many English educators and usage guides, such as The Elements of Style, discourage the use or overuse of the passive voice, seeing it as unnecessarily verbose (when the agent is included in a by phrase), or as obscure and vague (when it is not).[4] [5] However, the passive voice is commonly found in good writing, and many of those who claim that it is bad actually use it frequently themselves. It is even used in The Elements of Style in a sentence devoted to explaining why it should be avoided."

So long as we are all agreed that the passive voice has its place I shall cease to rattle the sabres over it.

"I have often noted that men are inclined to be utterly sceptical when it comes to matters of fact and completely dogmatic when it comes to matters of style." Oscar Wilde*


* Umm, not really