Confronting your inner coward

[LadyJeanne]

But doesn't the government have a responsibility to make sure these people are ok? I've heard stories of hospital patients being euthanised to protect them from armed looters. Fair enough - if they were too sick to be moved, they were too sick to be moved. But where was the army that's funded with everyone's tax money?

Well, the Parish is the local government. They offered transportation, and were told it wasn't needed. Short of forcing them to accept aid, I honestly don't know what the locals could have done. If they were hearing that everything was taken care of, I imaging they believed it and moved on to where they could help.

As for the army, they weren't there when the flood waters were rising. They could have helped, but after the flooding started, communications were down. Those left at the nursing home probably couldn't contact anyone to let them know help was needed.

Should the army have been in place already? If I had been the local government, I would have called for the National Guard long before the hurricane hit and had them move everybody out. But, hindsight is 20/20.

The only people who knew what was going on there were the people running the nursing home. That they refused government help when it was offered for the evac is the problem.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I have a lot of American friends, and shout me down if you want, but I have to wonder what kind of government would leave defenceless old people and their nurses to fend for themselves in such a situation?

One that is neither omnipresent nor omnipotent?

I think it's important to distinguish between what we don't want to happen and would never find morally excusable in those capable of preventing it (like the nursing home owners), and that which actually can be achieved while accomplishing all other objectives. Keeping in mind that any rescuers, vehicles, or materials placed in the area before the hurricane were as likely to be destroyed as the other goods and infrastructure already there, and that after the hurricane the roads and bridges were severely damaged and in many places impassable, it's not clear to me how any federal government would be capable of responding quickly enough to make sure that in an area the size of England, they were immediately on the spot in every case where this sort of rescue was needed.

While there were terrible problems and a need for immediate aid after Katrina, and while the head of FEMA did seem to be about as useful as a chocolate teapot, that should not blind us to the fact that the bulk of this problem was about planning. Some of it did occur on a federal level - in a budget, for example, which slashed levee-servicing funds from 104 million to 42 million while busily supplying Alaska with a 124 million dollar bridge to an uninhabited island. (Sleep well tonight, Alaskan members of the Allocation and Transportation committees.) Some of it also occurred on state and local levels, where disaster planning in some cases wasn't done and in others wasn't followed. Despite having drilled for almost precisely this situation 13 months ago - a disaster scenario with 300,000 people trapped in a flooded New Orleans - the mayor and local officials ignored their own plans, which included using city and public buses to move out the vulnerable populations that had been identified in the drill, and were noted to be of concern. And of course there's the great grim fact that no one seems to wish to talk about: the fact that for decades, the city of New Orleans has been defended by levees that were specifically designed to withstand a category 3 storm. Not 4. Not 5. Three. There were repeated warning at every level of the scientific community that this would not be sufficient in the long run. No one, at any level, did anything.

It behooves us to remember that we have state and local governments for a reason, and to observe that it is to the state and local governments that state and local needs are generally left. This is not simply about sparing the federal government money - although some more ardent conservatives would like to see that. It is also about letting states and local governments make the right decisions for their communities and direct their money to the right areas. Thus New Orleans could enforce more stringent controls on building in flood-prone areas and strengthen their levees, while residents of California could devote their energies to tougher structural codes and preparing for earthquake first response. If the local and state governments are doing their jobs, they really are the best people to understand the local and state needs. They'll know, for example, how a city with New Orleans' topography might suffer worse from a category 4 storm than Charleston, SC did from a direct hit from a category 5, and they can - if they choose to - prepare for that in the specific ways that best suit their own communities.

This, of course, requires funding, and that I think the ugly side of recent federal tax cuts that no one - including Republicans - wishes to talk about. There is, indeed, an argument to be made for "starving the beast" and returning more power to the state and local levels. However, this also means returning more money to the state and local levels. It means that when Mr. Bush gives swinging tax breaks on the federal levels, state and local sources need to pick up that money with rises in their own taxes in order to take on state-led intiatives to supply those needs. The state-led initiatives may eventually be more effective - but not if they let the federal funds be cut without raising more of their own.

And there we are back at the core of the problem whatever way you look at it. No one wants to pay. Oh, we want to pay now. We see the cost in human life, and we have - to be fair - poured out public and private funds without a murmur of complaint. But five years ago, when we could have been strengthening those levees, no one - local, state, or federal - wanted to give the government any more money than we already did. And no one, alas, has rammed through a line-item veto that might let the money be spent a bit more prudently, so that senators in chairmanship of the Ways and Means or Appropriations committees can't hold vital legislation hostage so that they can build a bridge to nowhere.

This, I think, is the sort of accountability we need to talk about. Not throwing rocks at one man - although he's made his errors - but examining the labyrinthine, corrupt, and disintegrating system of funding and backhanding that exists on every level of state and federal government.

Shanglan

 

[dr_mabeuse]

But doesn't the government have a responsibility to make sure these people are ok? I've heard stories of hospital patients being euthanised to protect them from armed looters. Fair enough - if they were too sick to be moved, they were too sick to be moved. But where was the army that's funded with everyone's tax money?

No one was euthanized. There is no such thing here, and if there were, it would be called "murder," and rightly so. We don't murder our elderly, at least not intentionally.

Some hospitals had to make difficult choices as to which patients got scarce resources, but no one was actually put down.

Most nursing and elderly-care homes here are privately run and regulated by the government. In the chaos of New Orleans, no one knew who was where or what was happening. The owners of this home had an obligation to see to the safety of their patients, and instead, they apparently just cut and ran, leaving the paid staff to do what little they could do.

Just what the government and the National Guard were doing is under investigation, but even if they'd been called out the moment the rain stopped, by then there was such chaos and destruction that I don't know what could have been done. From what I gather, most of these people died as soon as the flood waters reached them.

The owners of the home are the guilty parties.

 

[shereads]

But doesn't the government have a responsibility to make sure these people are ok? I've heard stories of hospital patients being euthanised to protect them from armed looters. Fair enough - if they were too sick to be moved, they were too sick to be moved. But where was the army that's funded with everyone's tax money?

There's a thing called the Federal Emergency Management Agency. Sort of. Until yesterday, FEMA's director, appointed by our president, was a man whose qualifications as the country's top go-to guy for managing civil emergencies included 3 years during the 1970s as an assistant to the city manager of Edmond, Oklahoma, and a more recent executive position with the Arabian Horse Association.

Why a man with Brown's experience was so flustered by a Category 5 hurricane is a mystery. For at least a decade, he lived with the threat of a deadly stampede by Arabian horse owners.

"Heck of a job, Brownie." ~ GWB, Sept 12

"The results are unacceptable." ~ GWB, Sept 12

 

[LadyJeanne]

There's a thing called the Federal Emergency Management Agency. Sort of. Until yesterday, FEMA's director, appointed by our president, was a man whose qualifications as the country's top go-to guy for managing civil emergencies included 3 years during the 1970s as an assistant to the city manager of Edmond, Oklahoma, and a more recent executive position with the Arabian Horse Association.

Why a man with Brown's experience was so flustered by a Category 5 hurricane is a mystery. For at least a decade, he lived with the threat of a deadly stampede by Arabian horse owners.

"Heck of a job, Brownie." ~ GWB, Sept 12

"The results are unacceptable." ~ GWB, Sept 12

"Brownie" will be the term used from now on to reference anyone who is in over his head in a position of responsibility.

Ex: The US would be $300 billion less in debt if that brownie hadn't sent us into Iraq without a plan.

 

[scheherazade_79]

No one was euthanized. There is no such thing here, and if there were, it would be called "murder," and rightly so. We don't murder our elderly, at least not intentionally.

There was a three-page article in the Mail on Sunday, which was written after interviews with several doctors working at New Orleans hospitals. Their full names were given and there were photos of them.

I know euthanasia is banned in the US. That's why it caused such a storm in the newspapers over here.

Maybe there are some things that the American media keeps from the public? I don't know... but with the law the way it is these days, I can't see why the Mail, nor the aforementioned doctors would want to risk everything by making up such a story.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Nothing like tragedy to bring out who people really are. That's horrifying.

exactly.

not to be tacky, but that's what makes disasters (from a historical perspective) intersting- it brings out both the best and worst of mankind. And there are always plenty of both. Look at the movie Titanic. It's the best hollywood example I've ever seen of the phenominon. the same thing happened at 9-1-1. Some people helped to rescue others at there own peril, while others gladly sacrificed others to save there own skin.

Mr. Rogers sais during times like this, look for the helpers. They are always there.

 

[amicus]

Not infuriated, but sighing in resignation as a myopic political agenda again blurs the issues.

It is not known if the owners of the Nursing home just 'walked away' from their responsibilities.

But our Liberal bottom feeders, bloodsuckers, jump upon the 'possibility' that an injustice occured to berate business, capitalism and government, all in one swell foop.

Rather the concentrate on and emphasize the hundreds and thousands who acted who acted to protect and preserve, you pick a 'possible' aberration to promote your agenda.

Shame on you.


amicus...

 

[sweetnpetite]

Not infuriated, but sighing in resignation as a myopic political agenda again blurs the issues.

It is not known if the owners of the Nursing home just 'walked away' from their responsibilities.

But our Liberal bottom feeders, bloodsuckers, jump upon the 'possibility' that an injustice occured to berate business, capitalism and government, all in one swell foop.

Rather the concentrate on and emphasize the hundreds and thousands who acted who acted to protect and preserve, you pick a 'possible' aberration to promote your agenda.

Shame on you.


amicus...

It seems pretty obvious, love, when help was refused and no help provided.

Others stayed behind, and didn't even know that the owners where missing. If they had some noble reason for leaving, it would make sence, sweetheart, for them to notify those remaining behind of there intentions.

 

[Guest]

 

[BlackShanglan]

The owners of the home are the guilty parties.

34 counts of negligent homicide. Looks like someone agrees with you.

 

[amicus]

The issue of the 34 is all thoughout cable news tonight and you may be right, note, I say, 'may be. You do not know that at this point, even if charges have been filed.

Even if it is true, that begs the point, as it surely is not the normative but an exception and should be viewed as such, not a general condemnation of society, business, government and what we loosely call Capitalism.

Which is what is being done, both here and across the news.

Anyway I would have thought you would appreciate the 'swell foop'.


antidisestablishmentarianismistically yours....amicus...

 

[Subo97]

How? Why?

I'm strangely reminded of two things.

One, the Seinfeld episode in which George Costanza pushed children aside and knocked over a clown to escape a kitchen fire.


Two, the response I always got from my sociopathic step-son to my questions about his moral/criminal/ethical decisions, "Don't you know that's wrong? Wasn't there any kind of voice in your head that said, 'Stop'?" His inevitable reply was a shrug of the shoulders and the words, "I just wanted......"

Certain labors are more than businesses. They are in some sense vocations. As a teacher, I cannot choose to teach only the high achievers. I have a responsibility to them all, even the slackers and neer-do-wells. I don't know about legal ramifications or free enterprise musings. This is the standard to which I hold you. If you enter the business of caring for the sick and dying, you're in all the way. If you're the kind of slug who would abandon bedridden patients to flood waters, find another business.

 

[Liar]

It seems pretty obvious, love, when help was refused and no help provided.

Others stayed behind, and didn't even know that the owners where missing. If they had some noble reason for leaving, it would make sence, sweetheart, for them to notify those remaining behind of there intentions.

I might get shouted down for this, but I have to say that it's not obvious. We know third hand rumors and pathos loaded news reports, sound bytes and spin. Naturally, it's easy to get emotional about it all, but the truth is, we only speculate.

But even in a fucked up case like this, "until proven guilty" must apply.

If they truly just ran off to save their hineys then it is criminal, since they had a responsibility for the patients. And if a criminal investigation and court finds them guilty, may the state of Louisiana invent new laws that allows for public flogging.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

There was a three-page article in the Mail on Sunday, which was written after interviews with several doctors working at New Orleans hospitals. Their full names were given and there were photos of them.

I know euthanasia is banned in the US. That's why it caused such a storm in the newspapers over here.

Maybe there are some things that the American media keeps from the public? I don't know... but with the law the way it is these days, I can't see why the Mail, nor the aforementioned doctors would want to risk everything by making up such a story.

This was so incredible to me that I had to Google on it, and indeed I found an article here:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1482468/posts

I don't know anything about the Mail's reputation, but it looks to me like they are playing up and sensationalizing what happened in a most unfortunate way.

As I said, euthanasia is as illegal in the USA as it is anywhere, maybe even moreso given the US 'culture of life,' which refuses to pull the plug even on a woman who's been brain dead for 15 years and had no chance of recovery. The charges the Mail is making are extremely serious and, if true, amount to accusations of murder. I would hope that they're not playing fast and loose with the truth just for the sake of some sensational headlines.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

The issue of the 34 is all thoughout cable news tonight and you may be right, note, I say, 'may be. You do not know that at this point, even if charges have been filed.

Even if it is true, that begs the point, as it surely is not the normative but an exception and should be viewed as such, not a general condemnation of society, business, government and what we loosely call Capitalism.

Which is what is being done, both here and across the news.

Anyway I would have thought you would appreciate the 'swell foop'.


antidisestablishmentarianismistically yours....amicus...

I really don't see where politics has anything to do with this. The owners might be libertarian, they might be conservative, they might be communists. They're still assholes, and if they're guilty as charged then they should be punished.

 

[SlickTony]

about as useful as a chocolate teapot,

This is a delightful metaphor.

Brownie" will be the term used from now on to reference anyone who is in over his head in a position of responsibility.

I hope so. BTW, has any headway been made with the movement to use "Santorum" to reference the froth of fecal material and lube that sometimes results from anal sex?

 

[Boxlicker101]

I read about this particular aspect of the tragedy a few days ago. I wasn't aware that the owners had refused assistance from the local government. I just now watched an interview on TV. The adult son of one of the victims said that he asked about his father and was told that everything was under control and that everybody was safe. Salvador and Mable Mangano, which might be misspelled, are the names of the owners of the facility and they have been charged with 34 counts of negligent homocide. If everything I have heard or read about the case is true, I can only fervently hope that this scum is convicted of all counts and that they serve 34 CONSECUTIVE sentences in prisons where some of the other prisoners are friends or relatives of the victims.

 

[amicus]

I, for one, do not know the circumstances and must withhold judgement, as I feel any rational person would do.

This couple has been in the nursing home business for 30 years and have been through many storms.

During the last two hurricanes, when immobile patients were evacuated, they died during the bus trip.

There is more to this than a snap judgement that so many seem eager to make.

Are there evil and negligent people in the world? Certainly, a case on the news tonight of a foster home housing a dozen impaired foster children in cages.

Yes, there is evil.


amicus...

 

[SeaCat]

don't ask this, you are getting yourself into an argument you can't understand love. Explain more, though. Your opinion is valued and loved, even if not agreed upon, as one who was in the medical field. You are asking I prove what I don't believe? How do you know ... for certain, what you state?

Damn it Charley, stop it. (You know I love talking with you because you make me think.) You are once again making me try to articulate things which I hold dear to my heart.

I was raised in an old fashioned household and still hold many of my parents beliefs. One of them is responsibilty. (I was raised to believe in the old laws of Hospitality in which I am responsible for the safety and welfare of anyone under my roof.)

As the owner/operator of a nursing facility you take both legal and civil responsibility for the safety and well being of your patients/clients. You must protect them from foreseeable threats against their health and well being. (This doesn't just include Bedsores.) If you fail in this, either through inaction or ignorance then you are liable. (If, and I say if, the owners of this facility left these people to fend for themselves then they are legaly and moraly liable.)

As a member of the medical proffesion I took an oath to not cause further harm to those under my care. I take that oath seriously and will protect my patients, to the point of injury and/or death on my part if needed. (Again I am old fashioned on this. If I give my word then I give my word. It is a matter of honor.)

As for asking you to prove what you don't believe. I have done nothing of the sort. I am only asking what you were questioning.

I can only view this situation from my personal perspective until more information comes out. As it stands right now I can't make any judgements, I don't have enough information.

Cat

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by shereads

Who has a synonym for penis?

Throbbing member.

How about "Proud young manhood"?

 

[shereads]

Certain labors are more than businesses. They are in some sense vocations. As a teacher, I cannot choose to teach only the high achievers. I have a responsibility to them all, even the slackers and neer-do-wells. I don't know about legal ramifications or free enterprise musings. This is the standard to which I hold you. If you enter the business of caring for the sick and dying, you're in all the way. If you're the kind of slug who would abandon bedridden patients to flood waters, find another business.

Yep.

It's no different than running a day-care center. I can't imagine anyone defending the right of someone to abandon 34 children in their care.

What makes the St. Rita's case even more disturbing is that this was a rural community; the owners of the home weren't paid to care for strangers, but for the parents and grandparents of families they knew.

Today they were charged with 34 counts of negligent homicide. There is no law requiring anyone to risk himself in an attempt to rescue someone else. But this was a state-licensed facility required by law to have an evacuation plan. Their area was under a mandatory evacuation. They had a contract with an ambulance service to transport their patients, but never called them. They were offered buses and other assistance by the parrish and declined.

Maybe the parrish should have taken custody of the patients and made sure the evacuation was carried out. Or maybe they trusted that these people would have accepted help if they had needed it.

A man whose father was among the dead said to a CNN interviewer, "I try not to imagine the last moments of his life."

 

[shereads]

Quote:
Originally Posted by shereads

Who has a synonym for penis?




How about "Proud young manhood"?

I like a throbbing manhood myself. Very Edwardian.

 

[scheherazade_79]

This was so incredible to me that I had to Google on it, and indeed I found an article here:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1482468/posts

I don't know anything about the Mail's reputation, but it looks to me like they are playing up and sensationalizing what happened in a most unfortunate way.

As I said, euthanasia is as illegal in the USA as it is anywhere, maybe even moreso given the US 'culture of life,' which refuses to pull the plug even on a woman who's been brain dead for 15 years and had no chance of recovery. The charges the Mail is making are extremely serious and, if true, amount to accusations of murder. I would hope that they're not playing fast and loose with the truth just for the sake of some sensational headlines.

I told you so!

And to be honest, I think that euthanasia was the kindest and bravest thing those doctors could have done for the patients. It was either that, or leave them to the mercy of the armed gangs going round looting and raping.

To wax poetical about the situation, it's almost been like watching a prime joint of sirloin being kicked over to reveal the maggots underneath.

I never realised the scale of the poverty, nor the extent of the Survival of the Fittest philosophy in the US.

Very sad.

 

[Weird Harold]

I never realised the scale of the poverty, nor the extent of the Survival of the Fittest philosophy in the US.

Very sad.

New Orleans isn't typical of the US with respect to the scale of poverty. The national poverty level is nothing to be proud of, but it's not as bad as recent news makes it look.

The "Survival of the Fittest" doesn't really describe the prevalent philosphy in the US either. The looting and lawlessness seen in New Orleans over the past couple of weeks is, unfortunately all too common and doesn't require a natural disaster to be set off, but it isn't "survival of the fittest" except in a very broad view.

I'm not quite sure how to characterize what it does represent about some Americans, but survival has nothing to do with it -- in many cases it's actually counter to survival, almost nihilist in the way some people try to prevent anyone from helping in any way.