Curious what the Brits of the Board think about this?

[zedsdead]

I can see his point although Margaret Thatcher didnt revitalise Britain she almost destroyed it with her paper revolution.Black Monday in 87 ring any bells, by that time she had singlehandedly almost wiped out the manufacturing base.Most British industry is now owned wholly or partly by foreign concerns, the very concerns that are pushing for the EURO.

As for the government although elected by the people once in power they cease to listen (power corrupts absolute power corrupts absolutely) they seem intent only on screwwing their position for what they can get.

As a last comment if we end up with the euro im going to get the hell out of dodge!!!

 

[OUTSIDER]

I can't see the UK voting to join the european union, I won't be voting to join it and will ask all I know to reject the european union.

 

[Myrrdin]

If the U.S. of A. is so worried about the power of a European superstate, why doesn't it form a superstate of its own with its neighbours, eg Mexico.

Think of the advantages,
You could do away with those expensive to maintain borders,
Free movement of labour across borders.
Harmonization of taxes.
Equal rights to health care, housing and social security payments.
No more trouble with import, licences, quotas, tariffs etc.
Redistribution of subsidies, to the poorest regions.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

The US is already a Superstate that can't do all of that (except the border thing). Remember, it's called the United States of America, and the States here have enormous powers. Plus, they all speak {relatively] the same language, share (some) common values and have a collective (for the most part) history.

We have all that going for us, and we still have deep poverty in some sections, crime, drugs, etc. etc. How is merging with governmentally corrupt drug traffic route clogged and poverty striken Mexico going to help?

Besides, we have, in a way, started to open up the southern part of North America via NAFTA.

Now if we can just get the damn Canadians to stop stealing our television comemrcial buisness we'd HAVE something.

 

[Golden]

had me worried for a mo Cheyenne - I thought for a minute you took the crazy Washington Times seriously - that was the kind of drivel I think only an American newspaper would contemplate printing.

What was it George Bernard said about the British and the Americans? A common people divided by a common language (more or less).

Kind of sums it up; the special relationship was defined by our historical ties. The US may be, now, a disparate and multicultural society (as is Britain: in London blacks and Asians will put number whites by 2010); but in 1776 the founding fathers were primarily English, Welsh, Scots and Irishmen, first or second generation immigrants who held very close to the values they had brought from the old country.

America's various European heritages still define much of its culture: French and Germans and Eastern Europeans have emigrated to the US every generation for 200 years; Hispanics from South and Central America have their cultural roots in Europe too; it was the British, mostly, who colonised Africa and along with the Spanish and Portuguese started to "export" blacks to the sugar, cotton and other plantations in the Southern US, and central and South America … the British heritage remains the strongest, as I'm sure everyone on this literate BB knows ... though a friend of mine from London was once told by as waitress in Arizona "You speak real good English for a foreigner..."

In the end we won both world wars together. There would have been no wars for the US to enter if the British had not fought on alone of the "major" nations (I don't ignore the crucial part played by Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders and others) from 1914-1917 and from 1939 to 1942.
Oh, and puhlEEAASE - unless you MEAN to exclude the Scots, the Welsh and the northern Irish … don't use the word English to describe the British.

 

[Golden]

Of course the context of the Britain in Europe debate must not be forgotten … we have ALWAYS been in Europe.

Even if you only look at post 1066 … Britain was invaded by a Norman duke and an army, all of whose immediate ancestry was as much English as Norman; Norman in any case means "north man" … the Normans were Vikings who invaded northern France from Scandinavia in the 8th and 9th century while their cousins were invading Britain. …

The King who lost the battle of Hastings was partly French/Norman, as was his predecessor, Edward the Confessor, whose first language was French not English.

By the 12th century, (y'all remember seeing the film the Lion in Winter?) we had kings of England who still didn't speak English and who also ruled most of current France … not until 1545 or thereabouts did the British throne finally "lose" its last European possession, namely the port of Calais.

Other English/British monarchs who spoke zero English included the Dutchman, William of Orange, the German George I … The present Queen is, technically, also the Duke of Normandy … mind you, of course, her own family is German!

And as for our law - English law has for some years been subject to institutions such as the European Court of Human rights, to European competition law, etc, etc. All that is realty at stake is: do we align the pound to the Euro (as the Danes did ages ago with the Krone) and having done so, do we abolish the pound (which is the decision the Danes declined). Strong commercial arguments for; strong political arguments against, complex Economic arguments either way.

Anyway, why should we NOT feel a close affinity to the 300m people who live within a thousand or so miles from our shores. I sit here, 3500 miles from New York City and 200 miles from the centre of Paris and maybe 1500 miles from Madrid and Rome, and people think it is weird to "feel" European?

Think I'll go and watch Tyson eat Golota while golota eats Tyson….

 

[Cheyenne]

I went to Berlin that year as well Cheyenne. Were you that really loud american woman who kept on shouting about how dirty everything was on the ex-east side?

Actually, I didn't get there until very early in 1991. Took awhile to arrange vacation but I was determined to get there before everything changed. I did spend a lot of time traveling through the old East Germany, noting how much I hated cobblestone roads and yes, how dirty and run down the buildings were. But I certainly didn't shout.

I'm not sure where how my comment on the West Berliners morphed into the Americans taking pride for winning the war. ??? I was actually embarassed by the West Berliners thanking me for something I had nothing to do with, only because I was American. These were older people who were directly affected by the airlift. They were clearly grateful and would remember for the rest of their lives. They wanted me to listen to their stories of what it meant to them, and some had tears in their eyes. I never brought up the topic, they always did as soon as they heard my voice.

Actually, my only point in talking about the Wall at all was to address a previous comment about how we might have been better to have left the wall standing so that the Germans would never be united again and be able to repeat their history. I don't believe that is true, especially since I've been there to see the effects of the wall.

 

[Cheyenne]

had me worried for a mo Cheyenne - I thought for a minute you took the crazy Washington Times seriously - that was the kind of drivel I think only an American newspaper would contemplate printing.

No, I thought the article was a little convoluted in its reasoning but I thought the best people to address it would be the Brits on the Board. I was right!

 

[libra-2]

But I think Europeans sometimes forget that there were two wars. While Americans foug

Yes and we there there first as well. How many thousands of British soldiers fought, died or suffered in the POW camps and forced labour camps. I don't suppose you know. British troops were in there long before Americans. Watch the film 'Bridge on the River Kwai'. One of the most factual war films to have been made, some of my friends were there.

It isn't productive to keep banging on about how good you think you are/were. Live in the present, look forward to the future and lets hope we can do a bit better about keeping peace than we used to.

Now can we get back to the original thoughts please, I'm sure other people must be getting as bored ith this as I am.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

I ddin't say the Brits weren't in the Pacific, I said the Americans think of both wars when they get all puffy and proud. And the Americans DID finish the Pacific War, which was being handily lost. So, not ackowledging that is as dumb as not acknowleding any other involvement by any other nation in WWII.

The Bridge on the Etc is a great film -- I've seen it a hundred times.

All threads meander. If you're bored with the direction, go the fuck away.

----------------------------------------------

"Be happy in your work."

 

[the_one]

Sorry, but neither the Brits nor the Yanks got the enigma. It was the Polish resistance. The code books were retrieved later from a German sub in port by an SOE (Special Operations Executive (UK)) agent, who, disguised as an SS officer, walked straight into the radio room, picked up the books, and left without so much as a word being said to him.

 

[OUTSIDER]

Sorry people but.....

Fuck the war that was a long time ago and not really what this thread was about anyway, there was enough glory and shame for everyone in that war, what we need now is to know weather it is in the UK's interest to tie our currency to the euro or is it better to stay independent.

All we hear is bullshit from both side's, one side says that if we don't join the UK is over ( err why, how ? ) and the other side say that if we join we'll end up as slave's to the wishes of the Franco-German secret agenda ( err WTF ), so you see most people are having to go on gut instinct on this one and I'm guessing that most people will think better the devil you know than the one you don't.

 

[Closet Desire]

FTW?

It seems that even after quite a few postings from quite a few different people that this thread is truer to its first post than many. If the people who have contributed are happy with where's it going then what difference does it make. If you're not happy with it, why comment?

England independent? Surely you don't believe this. Whether you call it a euro, pound, or dollar the British economy is tied up integrally with everyone else's economy. The economy in England is as international as anywhere else. Jag owned by Ford, Toyota wanting to deal in euros, and so on.

Unless you're satisfied living a subsistence life each of the civilized countries depends on other countries and economies for most of what we have come to consider necessities.

A euro by any other name...it's the same devil. The buying power of the pound is already regulated by economic forces. By some strange twist of math you can board a plane for the coast of Spain, stay in a seaside flat for a week, buy all your food, just for the cost a week's worth of groceries in England. Cheaper to leave than to stay? I'm still trying to figure that out...but at least I'm in the sunshine! The pound is strong relative to the pesato.

It will work the same way with a euro. A cup of coffee in London might cost 2 euros. Go to Itally and it might cost only one because of the relative differences in the economy. Having a single currency doesn't mean uniform pricing. That's a lesson you can learn from the US.

Most English and Europeans don't, for obvious reasons, realise that the US is still a collection of 50 more or less sovereign entities with their own legal systems, school systems, tax systems, etc. Each state uses the dollar as a common currency, but prices in each state are set by the prevailing economy relative to those around it and is no guarantee of consistency in pricing. Just ask those who live in border areas.

My point is that I realize that changing the currency is a difficult one from a point of national pride, but from a practical standpoint it became moot when money stopped being worth anything i.e. made of zinc and paper. It's only measured by the economy that backs it.

Just a thought...

CD
London

 

[OUTSIDER]

Good point's CD but....

Most people don't see it that way and when I said stay independent I of coarse realise that all currencie's are linked ( NY stock exchange sneezes and London catches a cold and all that ) and you can never really have an independent currency system but what I was trying to point out was that both sides are using the politic's of fear and are very light on fact's.

BTW, the UK demographic is increaseingly aged and as we all know older people tend to be conservative ( with a small "c" )and they are more likely to vote against joining the euro than a younger voter base.

 

[Closet Desire]

of course...

...you're absolutely right about that...most don't see it that way and will vote by the seat of their trousers (I'm not a citizen...just a legal resident...so I won't be voting one way or another).

And oh heavens, whey do you have to remind me of the growing body of aging conservatives! I don't know what your opinion is, but I live in a fairly nice but small house that cost five times what it would in the states and had a hard time finding it. Everytime a developer here tries to build housing, pensioners show up in force to protest, write letters to the paper screaming that we don't need more housing, etc. Well, I won't carry on. We have an old factory that has been empty for decades, but all applications to build housing on the ex-industrial estate has been shot down. So there it sits looking worse than it did when the Germans bombed it, broken windows and all, of no use to anybody.

Secretly I smirk everytime I go into Asda's to shop because I know that Walmart owns it and they are quietly chaning the rules as they go.

 

[Myrrdin]

The mere mention of multi- nationals like Walmart, is enough to make me consider closer ties with Europe. Walmart apparently has a bad reputation for the bullying tactics it uses on its suppliers. A profit first / people second organization? Is it capitalism gone mad, when multi-nationals have GNP's bigger than a lot of countries. When high streets decline, while out of town superstores open everywhere. Decimating local businesses by selling staple foods as "loss leaders" to get customers in through the door.
The European Union is seen as a protector of the individual against big business. More of us than ever holiday in Europe. The percentage of the population that even remembers ever being at war with parts of Europe is decreasing all the time.
We'll inevitably develop closer ties as time goes by.

 

[Pyper]

Ah, c'mon, everyone knows British people are evil. Just watch Braveheart, Gandhi, Rob Roy, The Patriot, Star Wars....oh wait, those are all American movies.

 

[Closet Desire]

Capitalist expansion...

I couldn't agree more with you about how the ties seem to be getting even closer. We holiday on the Continent several times a year and it's comfortable and pleasurable each and every time. The people are wonderful and, as soon as you get away from the English who are looking for a "real" pub it's a marvelous experience.

Corporate bully tactics weren't invented by Wal Mart though. Marks and Spencer and Sainsbury's both have been recently accused by suppliers of deals bordering on extortion. Marks and Spencer just folded up its tent in our high street and left. There are some things that are inexorable and the demise of small businesses to be replaced by larger, "more efficient" ones is one of them. I don't think the way Walmart did a lot of things in the States is particularly honorable because there was a definite plan to build stores in several adjoinging communities, force out the competition, and then relocate to a "superstore" which left the small towns all but empty of stores, shops, and markets.

At the same time, Walmart would have a tough time competing against the hypermarkets I visited in Spain and Portugal. I know there are some near Paris, but fortunately we always stay near the train stations and there are plenty of lovely markets to patronize.

The impetus in England to buy from someone who will sell cheaper is even stronger as consumers here become acutely aware of how much more they are paying for some commodities compared to their mainland counterparts. Ikea is the one that comes to mind where a particular sofa costs, say, £500 in England. Drive across the channel, pick it up in Calais, and it's £320. Ikea stutters and says it's the different rules and regulations. But we all know that's rubbish because the Ikea stuff is all built in the former eastern block in what most of us would call sweat shops...if they had any heat. But...we won't talk about that.

Ah...it's the dawn of change and the show in only just beginning.

 

[Svedish_Chef]

Besides, we have, in a way, started to open up the southern part of North America via NAFTA.

Ok so what the fuck is that Dixon?

Personally I am hoping that Britain stays what it is, a seperate entity from the rest of Europe. Its like Australia and New Zealand having the same dollar... why? We dont need to be part of any such thing because we aren't tied to any other country, in the border sense at least. In Europe you can walk through 3 different countries in a day but you still have to transport yourself somehow to the British Isles.

Some things are better left alone no matter what the reasons...



Da chef

 

[insideShiraz]

Hi Cheye...

"It wuz Me Muddah"...

 

[Golden]

Rob Roy

Ah, c'mon, everyone knows British people are evil. Just watch Braveheart, Gandhi, Rob Roy, The Patriot, Star Wars....oh wait, those are all American movies.

Well in Braveheart (set in the early 1300s, when there was no politicla entity called Britain) and Rob Roy (about 1700 from memory, and therefore before the Act of Union tying Scotland and England) the Scots were beastly to each other and the English were beastly to everyone; Rob Roy was conceived and produced by a Scot, written and directed as I recall by Englishmen, starred an Irishman ... you can't entirely blame Hollywood - though most films, you can!

 

[Closet Desire]

transporting one's self

Obviously not too familiar with the British rail system in its newer, slower version!

If my recent trips into London from a mere 20 miles away are any indication, it's much faster to get to France by train that most places in England. Step on a train in London, step off in central Paris, travelling most of the way at about 186 mph (except in England). Calais, as I recall, is about an hour from London.

Things have changed a bit.

 

[Myrrdin]

Obviously not too familiar with the British rail system in its newer, slower version!

Yea well south east England is kinda densely populated and people just won't volunteer to have their expensive home bulldozed for a new railway line.
Anyway it's kinda fun to make the French disembark at Waterloo station.

 

[OUTSIDER]

Yeah cause the french hate ABBA.

 

[Closet Desire]

I hate ABBA...

Well, the southeast has always been that way. I was referring more to the recent and tragic crash at Hatfield that has put the entire system into question (and closed the line to Scotland for the rest of the week) and forced reduced speed on the line still in use. What a mess.

Yes...it is great fun to make the French disembark at Waterloo! It's too bad we can't just make them get off at Ashford and say there's a strike at Waterloo.

I did shock my English step-son with my comments about how the Americans would handle building a bypass around a small village on a major route. He was very interested at first and then shocked! Oh...what did I say? Well, it seems the action of protestors over the proposed 4 lane bypass cost the taxpayers about 13 million pounds. Upon driving through the village I told him that in America we would have used that 13 million to buy up the houses along the current two lane road, raze them, and pave through the empty lots!