Damned Democracy

[dr_mabeuse]

My two cents...

As I sit here and read, I see one striking thing. Everyone is complaining about problems...no one offers answers. I see the whining and the bitching that few choose to answer...

First, why did we try to bring democracy to other countries? Freedom. Plain and simple as that. We were a country born on the ideals of freedom. Freedom of everything here, the right to do as we wish. You don't live in a country where you can only buy bread on a certain day, or you can only choose to drive a certain brand of car. You don't live in a country, where if you're an 18yr old male, you have to serve 2 years in the armed forces. If you don't like your job, you can go to college, whatever college you want. And our country has taken to task, that its our job to bring freedom throughout the world.

Our country is evolving, as it always has. Its gone from a farming country to a manufacturing country just a century ago, and now, its changing from a manufacturing country to a service country. Its a natural evolution, and it has its growing pains. You talk of jobs going overseas, yes, that happens. Just this year, Merril Lynch sent their desktop support work to India. Why? Because here, in the US, those workers demanded $120K a year salaries, whilst Indian workers asked for only $30K a year. People here, in the US, seem to think that high paying salaries are not a privilege, but a right. One of the biggest complaints businesses have is that college kids, with no experience, come out thinking that they should be earning high paying salaries, and don't understand that they have to start at the bottom.

Just 40 years ago, college was seen as a right for only rich kids. Unless you were a big sports talent or something of that nature, you shouldn't go. Today, its seen that everyone has the right to go to college, to get a degree. In fact, today, its often told to todays youth that a high school degree with not get you very far. Is this always true? Not always, but generally is. College itself, once viewed as a privilege is now seen as a right.

You talk of how the EU is a major competitor, but forget that the EU is made up of many large, established countries. That all their economies combined are what is needed to compete with the US. And they are hurting from high oil prices too. Spanish truck drivers are going on strike. Italian fishermen go on strike as well.

Oil is...where we bleed our money, yes. But are we smart enough to get ourselves out of it? Yes. Slowly but surely this country is turning around, from Pickens and his wind farm, to the engineer whom designed a way to turn any vehicle into a hybrid, and estimates that when he gets shops up and running, can do it for $1-2K a transfer in about an hour. Biodiesel has been a hot topic as of late, as have nuclear power plants, solar power, and drilling our own resources. It will take time...yes, but can it be done? YES.

The biggest problem we have right now, is that the last serious recession to hit this country was over ten years ago. The recession of '01 really shouldn't count because the consumer kept spending, and made that recession less noticeable. Now its hit the consumer, and people are afraid. They're not used to this. But its not just our country, its other countries. Even China, India, and Indonesia have raised the price of fuel, by eliminitating some of their subsidies. Venezuela has talked of raising the price of their fuel, even though they know it will lead to riots because they think they have a right to cheap fuel.

Look around the world, look at Haiti where they eat dirt cookies, or to Thailand, where children wander dumpsters in search of food or something to sell to buy food. If you're here, chatting on the AH, then at least you have a roof over your head, a computer that functions, and the internet. How many people out there would kill to have the internet? Look at some of the reports out of Afghanistan. For some of the women, look at how the young women over there cry with joy at not only being allowed to go to school, but to use a computer, and to dream of a good life for once. Look at how privileged you are, look at what you take as a right, when it really is a privilege.

My two cents, though most of you will hate me for it

Oh, shut up.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

(Dear Jag: )

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

JAG

I have a solution. Its a tidge draconian, but it works. It includes some 3/4 inch manila rope coated with shellac so it slides well and quickly. Stretch it for 24 hours before using.

 

[JagFarlane]

JAG

I have a solution. Its a tidge draconian, but it works. It includes some 3/4 inch manila rope coated with shellac so it slides well and quickly. Stretch it for 24 hours before using.

Ah right, shall I broadcast it on webcam for you? Make a video of it? Show all your friends how great you are? Oi.,..

 

[cloudy]

First, why did we try to bring democracy to other countries? Freedom. Plain and simple as that. We were a country born on the ideals of freedom. Freedom of everything here, the right to do as we wish. You don't live in a country where you can only buy bread on a certain day, or you can only choose to drive a certain brand of car. You don't live in a country, where if you're an 18yr old male, you have to serve 2 years in the armed forces. If you don't like your job, you can go to college, whatever college you want. And our country has taken to task, that its our job to bring freedom throughout the world.

Nothing personal, but this is the damn arrogance that's endemic in this country. What makes you think that other countries want our "freedom"? I don't recall anyone asking other countries if they wanted our "freedom" (if you can even call it that anymore). We've become nothing but an overgrown playground bully, insisting everyone do things our way.

Americans are so damned arrogant: we're the best, everyone wants want we have, bow before our superiority. I ceased being impressed with our "global cop" attitude decades ago.

Why the hell can't we let people run their own damn countries the way they want to? Since when is it any of our fucking business?

No wonder other countries hate us.

 

[3113]

Why the hell can't we let people run their own damn countries the way they want to? Since when is it any of our fucking business?

You're a savage, Cloudy. What do you know?

I mean, would you injuns even have democracy without us? Oh...wait...seem to recall some tribes did....scratch that question....

 

[rgraham666]

One thing overlooked in this debate, capitalism doesn't care much for democracy.

Democracy gives power to people who historically don't have power. They start asking for things like fair wages, clean drinking water, clean air and safe food. All of which cut into company's profits.

That's one of the chief reasons that business is so fond of places like China. There are no unions. There are few workplace safety laws. There are few laws about pollution. There are few laws about quality of product. And the mandarins that run China and the mandarins that run companies understand one another because they are the same type of people.

As my favorite writer puts it, "Capitalism was content under Hitler, happy under Mussolini, very happy under Franco and ecstatic under General Pinochet."

 

[3113]

Actually, Dr. M., it's not a question of Democracy. It's a question of capitalism. In some countries, communism was voted in square and fair by democratic means--which means we, the U.S. should applaud the choice as it celebrates democracy. We never do. In fact, we sometimes invade and replace the communist lead with someone of our own choosing, whether or not the people of that country want them--and even if they're horribly corrupt and evil.

Then again, we're the same country who, when it looked like a resolution to invade Iraq would not only fail in the U.N. but be vetoed, pulled out the resolution. We love Democracy, but only when it gives us what we want. If it won't then we don't want it to go to a vote. We want to do exactly as we please.

Likewise, we don't like foreign democracies when they vote in a governments that don't profit our corporations. The U.S. has been known to support despots and aristocrats rather than democracies if said despots and aristocrats maintain a good capitalistic nation that favors us.

 

[3113]

One thing overlooked in this debate, capitalism doesn't care much for democracy.

Great minds, Rob. Looks like we posted much the same thought at the same time.

 

[DeeZire]

College itself, once viewed as a privilege is now seen as a right.

Another way to look at this is to consider the mantra of the Right - pull yourself up by your bootstraps. The Right assumes anyone who can't provide for themselves is lazy because they didn't go to college. In reality, it's capitalism that can't provide for them, whether they went to college or not, but the Right won't address this issue in an honest way.

Regardless of the futility of going to college, it would seem to be a lofty goal for a society to pursue. So why is the Right constantly denigrating anything having to do with raising the quality of our society?

This makes me wonder, exactly, what are the goals of the Right? Aren't the conservatives the ones who are pushing for worldwide democracy? And yet, at home, they're doing everything in their power to make our democracy a class system with the poor being swept under the rug.

This is very confusing to me. I don't know how much longer I can embrace this faux conservatism before my head explodes.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

DEEZIRE

It seems to me you dont understand conservatism and confuse it with something sinister.

 

[colddiesel]

Nothing personal, but this is the damn arrogance that's endemic in this country. What makes you think that other countries want our "freedom"? I don't recall anyone asking other countries if they wanted our "freedom" (if you can even call it that anymore). We've become nothing but an overgrown playground bully, insisting everyone do things our way.

Americans are so damned arrogant: we're the best, everyone wants want we have, bow before our superiority. I ceased being impressed with our "global cop" attitude decades ago.

Why the hell can't we let people run their own damn countries the way they want to? Since when is it any of our fucking business?

No wonder other countries hate us.

Most of this is spot on but I am not sure that the US has exported freedom anywhere anyway.

Other countries do not hate Americans. They do however hate the American government. The magnitude of the current administration's failure since September 2001 when The USA had the support and sympathy of the world cannot be underestimated.

Your penultimate sentence should be engraved in stone as the starting point for all nations' foreign policy.

 

[colddiesel]

One thing overlooked in this debate, capitalism doesn't care much for democracy.

Democracy gives power to people who historically don't have power. They start asking for things like fair wages, clean drinking water, clean air and safe food. All of which cut into company's profits.

That's one of the chief reasons that business is so fond of places like China. There are no unions. There are few workplace safety laws. There are few laws about pollution. There are few laws about quality of product. And the mandarins that run China and the mandarins that run companies understand one another because they are the same type of people.

As my favorite writer puts it, "Capitalism was content under Hitler, happy under Mussolini, very happy under Franco and ecstatic under General Pinochet."

Please show me one, any democracy that does not have a capitalist economy.

 

[rgraham666]

I didn't say democracies don't have capitalist economies. I said capitalism doesn't care much for democracy.

That's not the same thing.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Please show me one, any democracy that does not have a capitalist economy.

How about socialist?

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Another way to look at this is to consider the mantra of the Right - pull yourself up by your bootstraps. The Right assumes anyone who can't provide for themselves is lazy because they didn't go to college. In reality, it's capitalism that can't provide for them, whether they went to college or not, but the Right won't address this issue in an honest way.

Regardless of the futility of going to college, it would seem to be a lofty goal for a society to pursue. So why is the Right constantly denigrating anything having to do with raising the quality of our society?

This makes me wonder, exactly, what are the goals of the Right? Aren't the conservatives the ones who are pushing for worldwide democracy? And yet, at home, they're doing everything in their power to make our democracy a class system with the poor being swept under the rug.

This is very confusing to me. I don't know how much longer I can embrace this faux conservatism before my head explodes.

You're about to lose your country club membership and plaid pants.

 

[colddiesel]

I didn't say democracies don't have capitalist economies. I said capitalism doesn't care much for democracy.

That's not the same thing.

Perhaps not, but what response can you expect for such a banal statement. You haven't made any attempt to justify your point. Perhaps your favourite author can help?

 

[DeeZire]

You're about to lose your country club membership and plaid pants.

No problem. I can pick up more plaid pants at the Goodwill. And the perfume those country club women wear makes me sneeze, so to hell with 'em.

JB - you are so right. I don't understand conservatism, especially when they're trying to turn our country into a kingdom; expanding presidential powers, rigging elections, taking away civil liberties, stacking the court with a conservative majority so that deliberations will no longer be divided between libs and cons, but cons and neo-cons. This, to me, is sinister, at least in the context of the democratic ideal.

(Oh crap! Now, I've not only lost my plaid pants and C Club membership, but my Lexus SUV is going to be repo'd and my mistress is going to leave me. Thankfully, my trophy wife's trust fund makes McCain's trophy wife look like a welfare mom, so I'll be okay.)

 

[colddiesel]

How about socialist?

Socialists need Capitalism most of all so they can tax 'em! Even Marx assumed that you had to have capitalism before socialism could thrive.

 

[keeblercrumb]

Rocket Man

No, but we tried, and now they've got this damned free market bug. We should have given them Taiwan and encouraged them to stick with that back-yard blast-furnace thing they had going during the People's Great Leap Forward. It kept the kids out of trouble and meant free pig iron for the whole family. And what was wrong with those quilted pajamas they used to wear? Now everything has to be high fashion?

They say that in 5-10 years they'll have more cars than the USA. Guess how much gas is going to cost then? If they'd stayed communist they'd still be riding the shoe leather and waving Mao's little red book, not driving all over in Mercedes Benzes.

Now all they do is rip off our video games and designer handbags and poison our Alpo.

I am actually going to agree with Roxanne pretty much on this... may the great God of liberalism forgive me....

Bemoaning the demise of the US economy has been a great sport, off and on for most of the last century... except for those times when we couldn't brag enough about it.

Go back 50 or so years when the US was the ONLY significant industrial economy in the world as Europe and Japan were mired in the long recovery from the devastation of world wars, Russia and China dealing not only with that same devastation but also saddled with hopelessly inept and inefficient communist governments. The third worlds of Southern Asia, Africa and South America were deep into their third "worldliness", the legacy of 19th century colonialism.

While there was no doubt the US, not only undamaged but actually expanded by the war, was far better off economically than the rest of the world. But that had a lot more to do with how bad the rest of the world was than it did with America being uniquely blessed.

I honestly believe our economic troubles are transitory and mostly the result of some ill-advised policies which will right itself over time... It was not so long ago that predictions of America's imminent bankruptcy in the face of the Japanese industrial juggernaut were rife in this country.

Somehow the 90's happened anyway...

Now the same dire predictions are being given for China, India and Russia... I do believe a free market system and a totalitarian form of government are not compatible in the long run... China will either morph into a true democracy or collapse into anarchy. And India and Russia? Competition is good for everybody.

But the reality is that we are not slipping down the economic ladder... much of the rest of the world is simply climbing up..... In no way do I see this as a bad thing. This does NOT mean we will no longer have food to eat, and toys to buy, it just means everyone else will as well.

As for the Dollar (and Rox and I part company here).... Lets get the fuck outa Iraq, let oil settle down (And it WILL go down!), a new and better Administration (THAT won't be hard!) and who knows? Perhaps another economic boom as we got under Clinton. Hard to believe it will be worse...

Balancing the budget might help again..... That seemed more inherently successful than the "spend our way into economic success" Reaganomics which seems to have fully run its course under the current administration. Much as it did under the first Bush.

Anyway... try not to think of Us vs. Them... as some kind of economic race... Think rather in absolute terms of food, shelter and warmth to even more people on the planet.... a good thing.

-KC

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

DEEZIRE

Real conservatives arent invested in fucking anyone. Real conservatives dont care how much money an employee makes, so long as the employee creates enough revenue to cover her wages and expenses and make some money for the company.

Real conservatives cant care less about what you do so long as they dont get the bill for your folly. Acts of Nature and crime need community assistance, but not your self-inflicted problems.

Real conservatives dont treat words like anagrams to arrange how you please.

Mostly, conservatives are invested in what works best. We tend to agree with Wittgenstein that the answer to most problems is not new data, but re-arranging the old data.

 

[keeblercrumb]

DEEZIRE

Real conservatives arent invested in fucking anyone. Real conservatives dont care how much money an employee makes, so long as the employee creates enough revenue to cover her wages and expenses and make some money for the company.

Real conservatives cant care less about what you do so long as they dont get the bill for your folly. Acts of Nature and crime need community assistance, but not your self-inflicted problems.

Real conservatives dont treat words like anagrams to arrange how you please.

Mostly, conservatives are invested in what works best. We tend to agree with Wittgenstein that the answer to most problems is not new data, but re-arranging the old data.

And here is one more thing...

REAL CONSERVATIVES also seem inordinately concerned with what constitutes REAL CONSERVATIVES. This adherence to dogma has not seen the like since the Red Guard days of Maoism.



-KC

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

KEEBLER

You express the same sentiments as my newspaper.

Free trade is a wonderful thing when youre trading your surplus for the other guy's surplus.

But you and ROXANNE and the paper miss the boat about labor because the issue isnt productivity. Asians and Africans arent more productive then Americans. They simply cost less to use.

They cost less to use because their societies have none of the labor laws, benefits, and environmental regulations that Americans insist on for our standard of living. American wages are the tax we pay for our standard of living. Outsourcing circumvents this. The Asians are free to use children and convicts and geezers and cripples for pennies on the dollar, plus no rules.

When the American job is outsourced the American worker requires new training and assistance that costs Americans money. Its a tax.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

KEEBLER

You miss the lesson completely.

 

[keeblercrumb]

Rocket Man

KEEBLER

You express the same sentiments as my newspaper.

Free trade is a wonderful thing when youre trading your surplus for the other guy's surplus.

But you and ROXANNE and the paper miss the boat about labor because the issue isnt productivity. Asians and Africans arent more productive then Americans. They simply cost less to use.

They cost less to use because their societies have none of the labor laws, benefits, and environmental regulations that Americans insist on for our standard of living. American wages are the tax we pay for our standard of living. Outsourcing circumvents this. The Asians are free to use children and convicts and geezers and cripples for pennies on the dollar, plus no rules.

When the American job is outsourced the American worker requires new training and assistance that costs Americans money. Its a tax.

But that is a self correcting problem as Japan and Germany amply demonstrated! Economic success brought higher wages (or at least "buying power") which in turn drove the engines of productivity. Just give China and India a little more time and their wages will go up.... almost have to!

Increases in productivity, curiously, is the direct result of high labor costs....

Example: When building a modern petro-chem plant in Singapore in the 90's, at first we saw sub-contractors consciously choose to employ large numbers of Bengali's at a couple bucks a day using hand tools to fill reed baskets because it was more cost effective than leasing a bobcat and buying wheelbarrows.

But over the course of several years the demand for construction labor in the area drove the labor price up until suddenly the fixed cost for equipment was less than the labor cost of doing things by hand. Back hoe's! Dump trucks! And voila! Productivity!

Give it time.... Gee, this seems an odd lesson for a liberal to be giving to a "conservative"...

-KC