Dear Free Trade activists - thank you putting America at risk of foreign manipulation

[xssve]

Emperor Freidrich practically depopulated Germany - in the Landuoc campaign the gutters ran with blood for a week - you want to know what life in Europe was for European immigrants, read Candide for a start.

Not to minimize things or anything, but it seems likely that about 90% of Native Americans were already dead from diseases that routinely wiped out a third of the population in Europe and carried by DeSotos pigs before the Pilgrams were even born.

 

[cloudy]

Emporer Freidrich practically depopulated Germany - in the Landuoc campaign the gutters ran with blood for a week - you want to know what life in Europe was for European immigrants, read Candide for a start.

Not to minimize things or anything, but it seems likely that about 90% of Native Americans were already dead from diseases that routinely wiped out a third of the poulation in Europe and carried by DeSotos pigs before the Pilgrams were even born.

sure, so just wipe out the rest of us, finish what the European diseases started. Sounds reasonable to me.

 

[xssve]

Harsh times, basically.

 

[xssve]

Wasn't my idea.

 

[xssve]

Check it: http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200203/mann

 

[cloudy]

Check it: http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200203/mann

I know a good bit about pre-Columbian history, thanks. As a matter of fact, I own that book.

Also a good bit of what came after, so there's no way in hell you can convince me that people were treated any worse than the Europeans treated the natives here in the US. Just as badly, perhaps, although that's doubtful, but worse?

No.

 

[xssve]

We don't like to talk about it - you have to study European history, not that schoolbook crap - shit, they wiped out 6 million Jews just 60 years ago, Stalin wiped out more indigenous peoples than De Soto 40 years ago, and the Serbs tried real hard to wipe out an equal or better number of Muslims about ten years ago - shit, Ind'ns are fucking the pinnacle of civilized behavior in even a cursory comparison.

I mean, like I said, it ought not be trivialized, dead is dead, the number game is a bullshit argument, but some of you guys made it at least.

 

[Liar]

Speaking of attemped genocide....

...what is the historical record on attemped and completed genocide? An ethnic group wiped down to it's last member?

 

[xssve]

Hard to say since there's really no such thing as a "pure" ethnic group - the lack of success hasn't seemed to have deterred people from trying from time to time.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

sure, so just wipe out the rest of us, finish what the European diseases started. Sounds reasonable to me.

Not to mention the whole infected blanket issue.

 

[rgraham666]

Speaking of attemped genocide....

...what is the historical record on attemped and completed genocide? An ethnic group wiped down to it's last member?

The Beothuks is the first one that jumps into my mind.

 

[trysail]

"Wealth - Any income that is at least $100 more a year than the income of one's wife's sister's husband."

-H.L. Mencken

 

[cloudy]

The Beothuks is the first one that jumps into my mind.

The Arawaks, too.

 

[ishtat]

Speaking of attemped genocide....

...what is the historical record on attemped and completed genocide? An ethnic group wiped down to it's last member?

My guess would be to nominate the Tasmanian aborigines.The aboriginal population of the island has been estimated at about 30,000 on first European contact in 1805. By 1875 they had ceased to exist. Disease took its toll but the Tasmanian experience was unusual because the official representitives of the British government advocated the hunting and shooting of the aboriginal population as a matter of policy.

A unique population was lost, genetically different from mainland aborigines they had the most materially primitive society in the world. Separated from Mainland Australia since the last ice age they had an old stone age technology (unchanged for 60000 years) using hand held tools . They used fire but did not know how to make it and they wore no clothes(in a climate almost as cold as the UK)

The mainland population of Australian aborigines fell from about 400,000 in 1788 to 58,000 by 1960.

 

[xssve]

I think the Tierra del Fuegans are either gone or damn near.

 

[amicus]

Poor little left wing liberal pussies and eco freaks, Jesus, you folks take the cake.

Weeping and moaning, the sob sisters feel pain for Cro Magnon man, and 'Lucy's generation of homonids, for the Neanderthal's, and for every other species of plant and animal that through the marvel of evolution go extinct and are reborn every day, somewhere in the world.

Saving the fucking rain forest, save the spotted owl and the snail darter, keep the Inuit's existing on a whale blubber diet, and endless litany of ignorance and misunderstanding.

Evolution is a bitch, ain't she? I am hoping one day the female of the species will evolve a brain, but I ain't holdin' my breath.

Geez, such a deal....


The abominable amicus...

 

[cloudy]

Poor little left wing liberal pussies and eco freaks, Jesus, you folks take the cake.

Weeping and moaning, the sob sisters feel pain for Cro Magnon man, and 'Lucy's generation of homonids, for the Neanderthal's, and for every other species of plant and animal that through the marvel of evolution go extinct and are reborn every day, somewhere in the world.

Saving the fucking rain forest, save the spotted owl and the snail darter, keep the Inuit's existing on a whale blubber diet, and endless litany of ignorance and misunderstanding.

Evolution is a bitch, ain't she? I am hoping one day the female of the species will evolve a brain, but I ain't holdin' my breath.

Geez, such a deal....


The abominable amicus...

Must suck to be the only one left, eh, ami?

 

[amicus]

Must suck to be the only one left, eh, ami?

~~~

You, too, Cloudy, will one day have the feeling as generations live and die, ideas and traditions, fade....or...perhaps you already do...and it accounts for your sad bitterness.

But I have seeds and my seeds are sprouting more seeds, and my words will live on long past the time the body gives up.

I have no regrets. You?

Amicus (1/8 Cherokee) so my dear departed mammy tole me.

 

[cloudy]

You, too, Cloudy, will one day have the feeling as generations live and die, ideas and traditions, fade....or...perhaps you already do...and it accounts for your sad bitterness.

But I have seeds and my seeds are sprouting more seeds, and my words will live on long past the time the body gives up.

I have no regrets. You?

Amicus (1/8 Cherokee) so my dear departed mammy tole me.

Don't project your bitterness onto me, ami. I have quite a nice life, thank you very much.

Everyone has regrets. To not have them would make you less than human.

oh, wait...

 

[WRJames]

The rest of the world did apply sanctions and containment to Germany in the 1930's - the result was conditions so harsh that it made National Socialism look attractive.

That's why we formulated the Marshall Plan the second time around, and that happened to work.

Of course, those who fail to learn from history..., etc.

No -- Germany had to pay reparations in the twenties as part of the treaty that ended WW 1 -- under the Wiemar Republic. Germany suspended payments in 1931.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

No -- Germany had to pay reparations in the twenties as part of the treaty that ended WW 1 -- under the Wiemar Republic. Germany suspended payments in 1931.

So the solution was not to have Germany pay reparations.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Unrelated to previous post:

For all the storm and fury, here is the Really Big Thing that everyone should recognize and not lose sight of: Living standards are improving all around the world due to increased productivity arising from high technology, production process improvements and increased trade. This is happening every place in the world that opens itself up to these powerful factors, including in the U.S.

Yes there are imbalances and dislocations - there have always been, and probably always will be. Their existance does not contradict the previous paragraph. Sure, be concerned about them, but don't lose sight of the bigger picture.

 

[WRJames]

So the solution was not to have Germany pay reparations.

Well, that worked after WW 2 -- the US built up the economies of Japan and Germany (West Germany) and turned them into solid democracies and valuable allies -- at least one lesson well learned from history.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

Well, that worked after WW 2 -- the US built up the economies of Japan and Germany (West Germany) and turned them into solid democracies and valuable allies -- at least one lesson well learned from history.

But the post-WWII Germans wanted to be Western.

As an aside (or actually, on-topic for the thread), you could imagine trying that with the USSR. They'd have had Christians toiling away in subzero temperature gulag labor camps making cheap Soviet TVs for you.

Made by Dead Russian Orthodox Christians. I have to apologize to God for that one, since I've never met a Christian-hunting atheist that I liked, but still, the raw irony of it probably would have escaped Lawd-fearin' free traders.

 

[gauchecritic]

Unrelated to previous post:

For all the storm and fury, here is the Really Big Thing that everyone should recognize and not lose sight of: Living standards are improving all around the world due to increased productivity arising from high technology, production process improvements and increased trade. This is happening every place in the world that opens itself up to these powerful factors, including in the U.S.

You keep saying this Roxleby, presumably in defence of capitalism. But the Even Bigger Thing is that it would occur anyway through evolution

Everybody's standard of living went up when they found they could kill animals as well as find Jackal leftovers. Standards of living rose when they found they didn't have to roam the countryside in search of roots and grasses. Standards of living rose when landowners realised their peasants worked more effectively if they were fed and housed.

It's got nothing to do with grand strides in US led initiatives or barter becoming money. It's what occurs naturally given the circumstances. In much the same way that revolution occurs naturally when the peasants become restive.

The technological factors, whilst being a part of the equation are a very small part in the whole 'dynamism is a necessary product of growth' thing.

It's not anything new or unique. It has its beginnings in the trees.
The greatest and one sure factor of dynamism in society is words. Technology wouldn't exist without words. But words would exist without technology. Therefore, technology has little bearing on raising standards of living.

We can get by without technology. A lot less slowly and with greater incidence of mortality perhaps but society as a whole would still move forward because it is necessarily dynamic and is driven by words.