Define "Evil." Give Parameters.

[Peregrinator]

Classic nihilism. Honestly, I'm inclined to agree. It's a social construct, a label we give stuff we think is icky or wrong or "bad." There's stuff that nearly the entire human race has categorized that way throughout history, but no way to define it other than consensus, so far as I can tell. I'd like to be proved wrong, but it seems unlikely. I always get these kinds of answers, all boiling down to "I know it when I see it." No one ever seems to have a solid definition. Been asking a long time...

Nice to see you, man. Saw a few posts, looks like life is good?

For me it’s like falling in love; you know it when you see it.

Specifically, i think due to its inherent intangibility, evil , like love, defies the limited quantifiability/scrutability offered by words.

From this vantage point, the latter part of your question looks like a squirrel hole to this cowboy.

Lol, I JUST said that.

It is a linguistic psychophilosophical squirrel hole. I like them.

 

[CandiCame]

I mean, I know what the words mean. Your definition is really, really broad, though, and an impossible standard.

What device are you using? Did your purchase of it cause any suffering?

Yeah. And it was evil. I mean, are you expecting me to defend myself? There were circumstances that kind of forced me to need it, I bought it second hand so I wouldn't contribute as much to suffering as I would have had it was new, there are no ethical alternatives- I could offer up a plethora of excuses.

But I'm participating in a broken system that I hate and it keeps me up at night. I'm fucking evil and one person can't fix it. I use shit made in sweatshops and I try not to but with electronics it's inescapable. There's literally not a single electronics company registered with the UN's fair trade list of reputable merchants. Not a single one. It is literally impossible to buy a fair trade electronic.

But I still use electronics. And I'm not exaggerating. I know how bad it is. I know the system is broken. I've been to the protests, I do all the exposure that I can. There is no ethical consumption under capitalism because the entire system presupposes an impoverished class. I know it is partially my fault that in southeast Asia you can taste the air and it tastes like iPhones. I know I'm contributing to suffering. I'm evil and I don't know how to fix it and it really, really fucks with me. I'm not going to pretend I'm not evil just because I'm trapped by circumstance.

This isn't a grey area. If we all rose up and DEMANDED that we wanted fair trade products, that we would boycott the entire electronics industry until we got them, the market would change. I can't do that by myself and my efforts to convince everyone else to stand with me have failed because I'm an evil fucking failure. That suffering is my fault. Not all of it, but I can't ignore my contributions.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Classic nihilism.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/074/346/7d9.png

Honestly, I'm inclined to agree. It's a social construct, a label we give stuff we think is icky or wrong or "bad." There's stuff that nearly the entire human race has categorized that way throughout history, but no way to define it other than consensus, so far as I can tell. I'd like to be proved wrong, but it seems unlikely. I always get these kinds of answers, all boiling down to "I know it when I see it." No one ever seems to have a solid definition. Been asking a long time...

Definitions are hard for a LOT of people.

I think like death the finality in the submission and acceptance of the meaning, or lack of meaning, truly bothers some people.

Even for some of the most simple shit.... when the dictionary/encyclopedia put out good solid definitions of things, if that's not jiving with someones views they do NOT want to hear that bullshit definition you got for them.

Nice to see you, man. Saw a few posts, looks like life is good?

You too man, been a min.

It's had it's ups and downs but I can't complain. I'm moving back east to Minnesota in a few weeks and I'm stoked to get to the next chapter....last little bit of lingering in a place is the part I always like the least.

I hope life has been treating you decent as well.

 

[turbulance]

Lol, I JUST said that.

It is a linguistic psychophilosophical squirrel hole. I like them.

Quelle coincidence, eh? I think there’s lots of stuff going on between and beyond the senses. You’d think by now they’d have developed an app for metaphysical anomolies.

 

[LupusDei]

Evil is extreme lack of compassion, not because of inability, but by choice.

Where's the line that crosses from selfish to evil?

When selfishness is seen as self-explanatory, and absolute.

 

[nowisthetime]

So evil is something like "a harmful thing done by a sociopath?"

Let me put it this way: is it the behaior or the sociopathy? Can a person be evil and not do evil things?

This topic is very interesting as various people have different definitions of what it means to be "evil". I think it will be hard to come to a quick and simple consensus, just as measuring beauty. Of course, evil can be measured on a scale, there are varying degrees of evil. However, if a mother, under a certain grave environmental condition, goes into the 7/11 and robs the store to gain money to provide food for her child, is she then considered evil compared to a thirsty killer who rapes and murders young males for pleasure like John Wayne Gacy did?


In my personal opinion, it all comes down to lack of remorse, easy manipulation, and often seeing great pleasure in inflicting psychological, financial, or physical pain onto others.

Can a person be evil and not do evil things? I don't think so. Sociopaths are inherently wired to commit such harmful actions. Yes, I would consider them naturally evil, because their brain wiring leads to destructive behavior. That evil behavior can lead to a hideously violent crime, or it can simply be flinching money from a spouse just because "he or she finds it fun". Again, evil is measured in various degrees.




You're made some great points.

 

[Peregrinator]

Yeah. And it was evil. I mean, are you expecting me to defend myself? There were circumstances that kind of forced me to need it, I bought it second hand so I wouldn't contribute as much to suffering as I would have had it was new, there are no ethical alternatives- I could offer up a plethora of excuses.

But I'm participating in a broken system that I hate and it keeps me up at night. I'm fucking evil and one person can't fix it. I use shit made in sweatshops and I try not to but with electronics it's inescapable. There's literally not a single electronics company registered with the UN's fair trade list of reputable merchants. Not a single one. It is literally impossible to buy a fair trade electronic.

But I still use electronics. And I'm not exaggerating. I know how bad it is. I know the system is broken. I've been to the protests, I do all the exposure that I can. There is no ethical consumption under capitalism because the entire system presupposes an impoverished class. I know it is partially my fault that in southeast Asia you can taste the air and it tastes like iPhones. I know I'm contributing to suffering. I'm evil and I don't know how to fix it and it really, really fucks with me. I'm not going to pretend I'm not evil just because I'm trapped by circumstance.

This isn't a grey area. If we all rose up and DEMANDED that we wanted fair trade products, that we would boycott the entire electronics industry until we got them, the market would change. I can't do that by myself and my efforts to convince everyone else to stand with me have failed because I'm an evil fucking failure. That suffering is my fault. Not all of it, but I can't ignore my contributions.

I feel like evil is a really strong word, and I tend to reserve it for people who actively cause harm or who, through inaction, passively cause harm.

That last bit, though. I'm a highly trained and experienced first responder. Right now with in a mile or three, someone is suffering a health crisis. I'm on the couch, passively allowing them to suffer.

It's literally entirely impossible to exist and not occasionally passively cause harm. So the rhetorical value of the term is reduced to zero. What use is another word for "extensional in space time?" And why slap a negative value judgement on such a term?

 

[turbulance]

If love and evil exist on the same plane ( and there’s lots of thinking that says they are)
then an easy definition would be the opposite of love, like white is all colours and black is the absense of colour.

With love and evil it would be on a looping continuum, because as all men know, a woman who loves you is readily capable of hating you and vice versa.

 

[LupusDei]

Can a person be evil and not do evil things?

I would tend to tell no, evil is in the deeds not inherent to the person. One can be monster capable of the evil, and choose not to act. No one is absolutely evil. Most of evil in the world is actually stupidity.

 

[Peregrinator]

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/074/346/7d9.png



Definitions are hard for a LOT of people.

I think like death the finality in the submission and acceptance of the meaning, or lack of meaning, truly bothers some people.

Even for some of the most simple shit.... when the dictionary/encyclopedia put out good solid definitions of things, if that's not jiving with someones views they do NOT want to hear that bullshit definition you got for them.




You too man, been a min.

It's had it's ups and downs but I can't complain. I'm moving back east to Minnesota in a few weeks and I'm stoked to get to the next chapter....last little bit of lingering in a place is the part I always like the least.

I hope life has been treating you decent as well.

I mean, dictionaries describe after the fact. They don't prescribe meanings, they report on consensus of users, so I get their argument, and Sapir and Whorf weren't idiots.

Lol, MN. You can have it. Why there? Oh, hey, I just realized I have a question for you. Pm...

How long are you still out in WA?

 

[BotanyBoy]

I would tend to tell no, evil is in the deeds not inherent to the person. One can be monster capable of the evil, and choose not to act. No one is absolutely evil. Most of evil in the world is actually stupidity.

So then intent comes into play.

Is it really evil if they were good in their intent but shit just went sideways?

Or is it only evil if they knowingly do offensive things?

 

[Peregrinator]

When selfishness is seen as self-explanatory, and absolute.

That just sounds like narcissism to me though. And a very narrow definition; were Nazi soldiers selfish? Were they not evil?

 

[Peregrinator]

Quelle coincidence, eh? I think there’s lots of stuff going on between and beyond the senses. You’d think by now they’d have developed an app for metaphysical anomolies.

I know, shocking. I like this extrasensory idea, but it might lead to a church.

If love and evil exist on the same plane ( and there’s lots of thinking that says they are)
then an easy definition would be the opposite of love, like white is all colours and black is the absense of colour.

With love and evil it would be on a looping continuum, because as all men know, a woman who loves you is readily capable of hating you and vice versa.

I'm not sure that hate and evil are interchangeable. Evil is more often referred to as the absence of good, another entirely useless word. It's an easy definition, but not especially helpful.

Is this black?

I dunno, I think I see a little yellow in there.

What's a yellow?

It's part of this other stuff that is anything but black.

What's black?

It's where there's none of the other stuff...

 

[jomar]

Hitler

[/thread]

 

[Peregrinator]

This topic is very interesting as various people have different definitions of what it means to be "evil". I think it will be hard to come to a quick and simple consensus, just as measuring beauty. Of course, evil can be measured on a scale, there are varying degrees of evil. However, if a mother, under a certain grave environmental condition, goes into the 7/11 and robs the store to gain money to provide food for her child, is she then considered evil compared to a thirsty killer who rapes and murders young males for pleasure like John Wayne Gacy did?


In my personal opinion, it all comes down to lack of remorse, easy manipulation, and often seeing great pleasure in inflicting psychological, financial, or physical pain onto others.

Can a person be evil and not do evil things? I don't think so. Sociopaths are inherently wired to commit such harmful actions. Yes, I would consider them naturally evil, because their brain wiring leads to destructive behavior. That evil behavior can lead to a hideously violent crime, or it can simply be flinching money from a spouse just because "he or she finds it fun". Again, evil is measured in various degrees.




You're made some great points.

Oh, interesting...so a truly shitty, awful, selfish person might not be evil...say, if they suddenly get everything they want...but an evil one, given everything, would still do crappy things, just to do them? Like the mom versus Gacy...mom would stop if provided for.

 

[Peregrinator]

I would tend to tell no, evil is in the deeds not inherent to the person. One can be monster capable of the evil, and choose not to act. No one is absolutely evil. Most of evil in the world is actually stupidity.

You're at odds with nowisthetime on that. I think it's more useful to describe actions as evil. There's a test possible; did this cause harm? Candi's standard works well to that point, though we're still just saying "yuck!" in cultural mythology dialect.

 

[LupusDei]

That just sounds like narcissism to me though. And a very narrow definition; were Nazi soldiers selfish? Were they not evil?

No, soldiers wasn't evil. Even the Hitler wasn't. He was just a chaotic dumbass that allowed an evil system to be created under him.

 

[Peregrinator]

Hitler

[/thread]

But not Stalin, Mao, Hirohito, Pol Pot?

Genghis Khan, whatever bunch of fucked up popes were all about the Inquisition?

Serial killers?

 

[Peregrinator]

No, soldiers wasn't evil. Even the Hitler wasn't. He was just a chaotic dumbass that allowed an evil system to be created under him.

What...wait...a system can be evil, while every human involved in it is not?

 

[BotanyBoy]

I mean, dictionaries describe after the fact. They don't prescribe meanings, they report on consensus of users, so I get their argument, and Sapir and Whorf weren't idiots.

Fair....but if you can't offer one better than the references are reporting the consensus is?

Or even just the definition they prefer over consensus so that effective communication can commence???

They're probably just using the wrong wrongs and are too prideful to realize/admit it.

Lol, MN. You can have it. Why there? Oh, hey, I just realized I have a question for you. Pm...

How long are you still out in WA?

My partner got herself a sick job after the fires wrecked our operations here this summer and it was the better choice between there or Memphis TN for us.

Unfortunately they only needed one botanist

Close, I'm from WA but I'm in N. Cal....end of march I'm digging up a few truck loads of trees and once that shit is out then so am I, if everything goes as planned first week of April I'll be hitting the road out of Cali for the last time.

Murphy is omnipresent...got a huge dick too.

So probably mid April LOL

 

[CandiCame]

That last bit, though. I'm a highly trained and experienced first responder. Right now with in a mile or three, someone is suffering a health crisis. I'm on the couch, passively allowing them to suffer.

It's literally entirely impossible to exist and not occasionally passively cause harm. So the rhetorical value of the term is reduced to zero. What use is another word for "extensional in space time?" And why slap a negative value judgement on such a term?

It's not impossible for me to reduce it further than I have, I'm just really bad at rallying people. I kind of don't want to talk about this so I might not respond anymore. It really fucks me up really bad. It's not you.

There's so much more I should be doing and I kind of like- am not supposed to talk about this shit because it makes me like... it's bad for my crazy. It can trigger behavioral outbursts.

But, not it doesn't reduce the term, using electronics that are made of torture is really fucking horrible. It deserves the term, I think, way more than not being at work 24/7 for you because empathy burnout is a thing. As long as you're doing all you can and then you take care of yourself that's not something I can judge, because, again, grey area.

But I know that I'm doing evil shit because I can judge it. I am, again, actively participating in a broken system that burns people to death by locking them in factories, that mangles and tortures children, that decimates communities, that causes famines by taking away resources from the community because of contracts left over from colonialism- I am actively participating in all of that.

I typed out a bunch of shit but I deleted it. I don't need to start oversharing on here again. But the answer is not that it reduces the term, it's just that I am really that evil. People are being tortured and dying because of me. And I tell myself I need it for work, because I do, but it's a fucking excuse at the end of the day. And it's going to kill me one day, this fucking guilt and just- again, I typed a lot of shit and deleted it.

The bullet point is that I am evil, and one day I'm going to die and I'll deserve it because I didn't do more to prevent this in particular, the electronics thing. I think about it a lot. There's not a single fair trade electronics company in existence. And I can't fucking... handle that. And that doesn't make the term meaningless. If you think it does then you don't know enough about the way sweatshops operate.

 

[turbulance]

It's not impossible for me to reduce it further than I have, I'm just really bad at rallying people. I kind of don't want to talk about this so I might not respond anymore. It really fucks me up really bad. It's not you.

There's so much more I should be doing and I kind of like- am not supposed to talk about this shit because it makes me like... it's bad for my crazy. It can trigger behavioral outbursts.

But, not it doesn't reduce the term, using electronics that are made of torture is really fucking horrible. It deserves the term, I think, way more than not being at work 24/7 for you because empathy burnout is a thing. As long as you're doing all you can and then you take care of yourself that's not something I can judge, because, again, grey area.

But I know that I'm doing evil shit because I can judge it. I am, again, actively participating in a broken system that burns people to death by locking them in factories, that mangles and tortures children, that decimates communities, that causes famines by taking away resources from the community because of contracts left over from colonialism- I am actively participating in all of that.

I typed out a bunch of shit but I deleted it. I don't need to start oversharing on here again. But the answer is not that it reduces the term, it's just that I am really that evil. People are being tortured and dying because of me. And I tell myself I need it for work, because I do, but it's a fucking excuse at the end of the day. And it's going to kill me one day, this fucking guilt and just- again, I typed a lot of shit and deleted it.

The bullet point is that I am evil, and one day I'm going to die and I'll deserve it because I didn't do more to prevent this in particular, the electronics thing. I think about it a lot. There's not a single fair trade electronics company in existence. And I can't fucking... handle that. And that doesn't make the term meaningless. If you think it does then you don't know enough about the way sweatshops operate.

Huawei?
Nice job getting Leica on board.

 

[Peregrinator]

Fair....but if you can't offer one better than the references are reporting the consensus is?

Or even just the definition they prefer over consensus so that effective communication can commence???

They're probably just using the wrong wrongs and are too prideful to realize/admit it.



My partner got herself a sick job after the fires wrecked our operations here this summer and it was the better choice between there or Memphis TN for us.

Unfortunately they only needed one botanist

I'll probably take a good vaycay while I re-grow my worm colonies and then set up another compost yard....no glamour but it's the best domestic gravy train I know I can make. Close, I'm from WA but I'm in N. Cal....end of march I'm digging up a few truck loads of trees and once that shit is out then so am I, if everything goes as planned first week of April I'll be hitting the road out of Cali for the last time. So probably mid April LOL

Murphy is omnipresent...got a huge dick too.

Well, yeah. It's the endless confusion that's caused by people not agreeing on terms used...gravity is just a theory, etc. I can't count the number of idiotic social media kerfuffles I've seen that come down to people refusing to use the same definition of a word.

Hate it when I use the wrong wrongs.

Well, that's awesome, then. I asked because Vancouver in March, but Cali is a hike. Hope the trees make it.

Yup, Murph is an asshole.

 

[LupusDei]

So then intent comes into play.

Is it really evil if they were good in their intent but shit just went sideways?

Or is it only evil if they knowingly do offensive things?

Intent is important, but not the absolute judge. Knowing, internationally done evil is likely evil even if accidentally does some good. Good intentions gone awfully wrong doesn't excuse evil results. Most of evil is being done with the best of intentions, but in either misguided or extremely narrowly defined, or most probably just ignorant and stupid way.

We (Latvians) have a proverb: the road to hell is paved by good intentions.

It is impossible to assess all possible consequences of one's actions, and it is impossible to not do harm, but one still is responsible to make best possible predictions and minimise suffering. Failure to do so is evil.

 

[Peregrinator]

It's not impossible for me to reduce it further than I have, I'm just really bad at rallying people. I kind of don't want to talk about this so I might not respond anymore. It really fucks me up really bad. It's not you.

There's so much more I should be doing and I kind of like- am not supposed to talk about this shit because it makes me like... it's bad for my crazy. It can trigger behavioral outbursts.

But, not it doesn't reduce the term, using electronics that are made of torture is really fucking horrible. It deserves the term, I think, way more than not being at work 24/7 for you because empathy burnout is a thing. As long as you're doing all you can and then you take care of yourself that's not something I can judge, because, again, grey area.

But I know that I'm doing evil shit because I can judge it. I am, again, actively participating in a broken system that burns people to death by locking them in factories, that mangles and tortures children, that decimates communities, that causes famines by taking away resources from the community because of contracts left over from colonialism- I am actively participating in all of that.

I typed out a bunch of shit but I deleted it. I don't need to start oversharing on here again. But the answer is not that it reduces the term, it's just that I am really that evil. People are being tortured and dying because of me. And I tell myself I need it for work, because I do, but it's a fucking excuse at the end of the day. And it's going to kill me one day, this fucking guilt and just- again, I typed a lot of shit and deleted it.

The bullet point is that I am evil, and one day I'm going to die and I'll deserve it because I didn't do more to prevent this in particular, the electronics thing. I think about it a lot. There's not a single fair trade electronics company in existence. And I can't fucking... handle that. And that doesn't make the term meaningless. If you think it does then you don't know enough about the way sweatshops operate.

Mmmm...take care of yourself, C. I fall into that kind of despair from time to time as well. Stay frosty and do good things.