Define "Evil." Give Parameters.

[Hal9000_]

I dunno, man, just exploring your example.

See, if we accept that other animals can't be evil, they're just doing them as nature intended, then we have to find evil a home somewhere either exclusive to the human mind's more complex functions or entirely outside of the human animal and...what is that?

Is a hurricane that kills many people "evil"?

 

[LupusDei]

We have laws in some places in the States where it's illegal to feed homeless people.

That seems evil, but there are people who thought of it.

If a system can be evil by itself, as in your claim about Nazis, the evil is not linked to anything human, or the system is evil because of the people.

So what is this quality that a system can exhibit despite its very good or neutral people?

Nazis is a good example. I won't claim there wasn't evil people, there almost certainly were at least some, but the evil was in the system. They did kill people in industrial scale, for no good reason. That's evil enough, I think.

How they get there? It wasn't a plan by any single evil genius, actually. Hitler never property merged his three different positions, and more importantly their secretarial offices. They competed for his attention, prize and most importantly, in not getting his anger. The horrors were built in this competition, then brought to life by zealots of what would eventually become a new religion, and carried out by very orderly citizens.

So, a system qualities... well, it never can be accurate and excessive list, but some: systematic (extreme and/or unnecessary) cruelty, zealously, power structure that prohibit (or at least discourage) individual responsibility.

Those three should be quite enough to build something rather evel. Yes, catholic church quality.

 

[neci]

God I love your posting style. There's a lot to unpack in these few lines.

1. What causes "intense desire to do harm?" Is that the evil causing it, or is it a description of the desire? Is the pleasure aspect essential, is evil always a pleasure thing?

2. I'm not sure about this disregard for life thing. Profit is just a way of getting stuff, like hunting or stealing or building. All of which needs must disregard some life. I think you're onto something, but where's the line? Is an artist who sells art with complete disregard for the lives of the animals killed to make art supplies evil? I think not.

3. I think this is evil...but it doesn't help me define evil. Gain of self might be simple self-preservation; see the demonization of Trump supporters by women, lgbtxxx, natives, poc, etc, etc. Is it evil to punch Nazis?

4. Capitalism and the mining industry may be evil, but what makes them evil?

5. I'm not sure who that is. For what power?

6. The option here being complete self effacement? Is it evil until your perspective and life shifts to some kind of coequal arrangement with all of humanity?

7. I would happily purchase such a work.

1. evil is a void. there is a blank stare, lack of connection. much like someone doped. evil is the meth addict who is running from the exploding lab, and leaves the children behind in the house. i saw an image once. the only one to make it out of the house was the adult. the bodies of four children lined up behind the door. single file. charred bodies. in that case, the drugs were the cause of the void. i've seen the void in people not on drugs. that's the shit that throws me for a loop.

2. human life. i'll leave the PETA talk for another thread. i ate a roast for dinner, and there was discussion of skinning carrots during prep.

3. when nazis hop into the mosh pit, all bets are off, and punches are 100% valid.

4. monetary gain, the lack of value for the human life that the mining effects. poisoned water. pennies paid for laborious work, when the boss man rakes in the profits in marble lined shops.

5. the power. see definition of evil.

6. given shifting perspective is an option. choosing evil and being evil are different situations. i have to believe in some kind of hope. that being said, most evil won't choose it. evil feels too good to let go of easily. vacancy or stabbing pain? life hurts and humanity is full of feels.

7. if you can close your eyes and visualize it, it is yours for free.

good to see you around these parts. don't get yourself into too much trouble!

 

[LupusDei]

It's early morning of a sleepless night for me and let's take it out...

Go read the shit I have posted as my "biography."

It's not quite literature. It's something I used to wake up from in cold sweat and tremors, since I remember myself (in this life).

It also define evil for me, in kind of a way.

Evil is lack of doubt, and not feeling responsibility for the fate of the universe, from the smallest of things to the most global.

That's not a definitive definition, and not goes well with all the rest, I know.

 

[jomar]

Please, please, please stick around LusDei...I You!

 

[IrezumiKiss]

Define evil with parameters, eh?

https://i.ibb.co/dDVFVXQ/IMG-2348.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/vqjs2BF/IMG-2350.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/KqK5wPg/IMG-2349.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/FhjmqjD/IMG-2353.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/SKTjTxd/IMG-2352.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/znHvkDb/IMG-2351.jpg

there ya go. Y tu sabes. You can safely consider this motherfucker evil. Pronounced with a cap E.

also the racism that powered him and the white privilege that enabled him. Mix alla that up in the salad bowl of evil, too. Can't leave a mess behind on the table, ey!

 

[Oblimo]

I want to know what you think it means.

My favorite definition: the intentional infliction of suffering. Sometimes I wonder if it should be amended to needless suffering, but that opens a door.

Under that definition, evil is a wilful deed, not a thought, or a state of being. I think that makes sense.

 

[Wok]

I want to know what you think it means.

The toilet paper roll pointed backward. That shit is evil, and needs to end now.

 

[Peregrinator]

Is a hurricane that kills many people "evil"?

I mean, is killing people evil?

 

[Peregrinator]

Nazis is a good example. I won't claim there wasn't evil people, there almost certainly were at least some, but the evil was in the system. They did kill people in industrial scale, for no good reason. That's evil enough, I think.

How they get there? It wasn't a plan by any single evil genius, actually. Hitler never property merged his three different positions, and more importantly their secretarial offices. They competed for his attention, prize and most importantly, in not getting his anger. The horrors were built in this competition, then brought to life by zealots of what would eventually become a new religion, and carried out by very orderly citizens.

So, a system qualities... well, it never can be accurate and excessive list, but some: systematic (extreme and/or unnecessary) cruelty, zealously, power structure that prohibit (or at least discourage) individual responsibility.

Those three should be quite enough to build something rather evel. Yes, catholic church quality.

I understand what you mean...I guess I'm still trying to move from recognizing it to defining it. It's pretty easy for me to point at such things as the Nazis and Zumi's example, above, and say, "Yes, that is evil." Or "This (situation, person, act, system) is evil."

I just don't know what I actual mean when I say it. It's like I have this vague idea of aome unutterably awful things that "everyone knows" are evil, and I kind of extrapolate to similar things and say "those must be evil, too," but what is that? Where does it come from? Because so far, botany boy is still pretty convincing about it being a giant consensus "uff da" in the original Norwegian sense, not the vanilla yooper version.

 

[Peregrinator]

1. evil is a void. there is a blank stare, lack of connection. much like someone doped. evil is the meth addict who is running from the exploding lab, and leaves the children behind in the house. i saw an image once. the only one to make it out of the house was the adult. the bodies of four children lined up behind the door. single file. charred bodies. in that case, the drugs were the cause of the void. i've seen the void in people not on drugs. that's the shit that throws me for a loop.

2. human life. i'll leave the PETA talk for another thread. i ate a roast for dinner, and there was discussion of skinning carrots during prep.

3. when nazis hop into the mosh pit, all bets are off, and punches are 100% valid.

4. monetary gain, the lack of value for the human life that the mining effects. poisoned water. pennies paid for laborious work, when the boss man rakes in the profits in marble lined shops.

5. the power. see definition of evil.

6. given shifting perspective is an option. choosing evil and being evil are different situations. i have to believe in some kind of hope. that being said, most evil won't choose it. evil feels too good to let go of easily. vacancy or stabbing pain? life hurts and humanity is full of feels.

7. if you can close your eyes and visualize it, it is yours for free.

good to see you around these parts. don't get yourself into too much trouble!

1. That sounds like evil, yes. Although I'm not sure the evil was in the running away so much as in having children in that situation at all. Which was probably much more a case of neglect than some kind of evil design to hurt the kids. Hmm.

2. Carrots? Murderer.

3. They're a pain in a pit. They act like the Swiss in the 1400's, just lock up and roll over everything, killing it along the way. Incidentally, that's why the Vatican has a Swiss halberdier guard. They got the most relentless, bloody, amoral, unbeatable mercenaries they could find. Funny, that.

4. Essentially, that's slavery, in terms of evil. Or can be, with financial manipulation of workers. I'm pretty sure we all see evil in that.

5. *blink*

6. This notion of vacancy is interesting. Is it evil that makes us step from catatonia to evil acts?

7. But...I want it signed.

Me? Only trouble I'm in is a cat glaring at me because I'm late for the salmon treat game.

 

[Peregrinator]

It's early morning of a sleepless night for me and let's take it out...

Go read the shit I have posted as my "biography."

It's not quite literature. It's something I used to wake up from in cold sweat and tremors, since I remember myself (in this life).

It also define evil for me, in kind of a way.

Evil is lack of doubt, and not feeling responsibility for the fate of the universe, from the smallest of things to the most global.

That's not a definitive definition, and not goes well with all the rest, I know.

I saw this post yesterday and meant to read your bio. I'll do that now.

I think this idea of both lack of doubt and void of responsibility is essential to every definition so far. I would guess that very, very few people ever consciously say "I am evil, and I shall now do an evil thing." They have all sorts of conviction that they are doing a good thing. Or at least not evil, just maybe naughty or wicked.

Really enjoying posting with a new friend!

 

[Peregrinator]

Define evil with parameters, eh?

https://i.ibb.co/dDVFVXQ/IMG-2348.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/vqjs2BF/IMG-2350.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/KqK5wPg/IMG-2349.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/FhjmqjD/IMG-2353.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/SKTjTxd/IMG-2352.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/znHvkDb/IMG-2351.jpg

there ya go. Y tu sabes. You can safely consider this motherfucker evil. Pronounced with a cap E.

also the racism that powered him and the white privilege that enabled him. Mix alla that up in the salad bowl of evil, too. Can't leave a mess behind on the table, ey!

No, I think everyone--except almost certainly the cop, his friends, and a few million racist shitheels in the gutters of society--would agree that's a great example of evil. But...is every such act by a cop evil? Is this one somehow uniquely evil? You see where I'm chipping?

 

[Hal9000_]

I mean, is killing people evil?

Would that make God evil?

 

[Peregrinator]

My favorite definition: the intentional infliction of suffering. Sometimes I wonder if it should be amended to needless suffering, but that opens a door.

Under that definition, evil is a wilful deed, not a thought, or a state of being. I think that makes sense.

Yeah...I think that would create the very loophole I just commented on..."I'm not evil; a little suffering is necessary to..."

But as it stands, I like it; it's not too broad, and it covers a lot of stuff.

Now are you comfortable with excluding as not evil any and all etities that are not human behavior? Because if we agree to that, you know what happens next? The next fifty pages of this thread, in about fifteen minutes, of circular arguments about pedophilia and thoughtcrime and racism. Which would eventually result in a good knock-down drag-out trial by combat of your definition and might be fun. So...your call...

And hello!

 

[Peregrinator]

The toilet paper roll pointed backward. That shit is evil, and needs to end now.

You've been wokwolled.

 

[Peregrinator]

Would that make God evil?

Holy shit dude, evil wasn't enough, now you want us to define god?


I meant to add about the hurricane or whatever: one of my favorite definitions of "deity" I ever heard was from my druidry instructor, who said "deity is any force of nature I cannot afford to ignore."

 

[Hal9000_]

Holy shit dude, evil wasn't enough, now you want us to define god?


I meant to add about the hurricane or whatever: one of my favorite definitions of "deity" I ever heard was from my druidry instructor, who said "deity is any force of nature I cannot afford to ignore."

lol. Maybe there is no good or evil or god or devil. Just primal forces of nature.

 

[Peregrinator]

lol. Maybe there is no good or evil or god or devil. Just primal forces of nature.

That's been working for me for a few decades now. Zen and druidry, no faith required.

 

[butters]

i'm ... still working through this. i would like to say good and evil are concepts at opposing ends of a scale we, as human beings, decide personally. i believe good people are capable of evil acts and bad people are capable of doing good. for a person to be considered truly 'evil' seems to me to call for a deliberate choice (not driven by mental illness) to embrace malice, whereas 'good' people routinely choose acts devoid of malice.

i am not religious. i would like to say that evil and good are all at our fingertips and depend on how we choose to behave - ie they come from within us, on that sliding scale. however, maybe because of religious indoctrination as a child, and understanding the fact of human limitations when it comes to our senses, and because of one very specific event in my life, i have to also be open to the fact that there may be 'forces' we, as humans, can tap into... to use them we have to 'invite' them in. that sounds all kinds of religious shit, i know. *sigh* i also appreciate that the event i refer to may well have been caused by the psycho ex slipping something into my coffee and that was at a time i was under extreme duress. in fact, that makes a whole lot more sense given the sharpening of colours, the sensations of the perception of some 'evil' force and, ultimately, after my rejection of that, the perception of a calming and deeply uplifting presence. nowhere did the concept of god/devil arrive in my head, more the perception was a kind of river/sea of darkness/light that i could draw on. the main difference was the dark 'called' to me, whereas the 'light' only made itself known after i'd rejected what the dark offered.

but back to the original question, i believe evil requires deliberate malice and that is something a person chooses to embrace or not and is something separate from mental illness. is it possible for an 'empty vessel' to be used, filled by an evil force - or a good one, for that matter? i don't know.

 

[von_Bismarck]

Evil is propagandizing for short term profits, when the consequences of that profiteering include the deaths of tens of thousands every year, and the probable disruption to human civilization.

 

[Peregrinator]

i'm ... still working through this. i would like to say good and evil are concepts at opposing ends of a scale we, as human beings, decide personally. i believe good people are capable of evil acts and bad people are capable of doing good. for a person to be considered truly 'evil' seems to me to call for a deliberate choice (not driven by mental illness) to embrace malice, whereas 'good' people routinely choose acts devoid of malice.

i am not religious. i would like to say that evil and good are all at our fingertips and depend on how we choose to behave - ie they come from within us, on that sliding scale. however, maybe because of religious indoctrination as a child, and understanding the fact of human limitations when it comes to our senses, and because of one very specific event in my life, i have to also be open to the fact that there may be 'forces' we, as humans, can tap into... to use them we have to 'invite' them in. that sounds all kinds of religious shit, i know. *sigh* i also appreciate that the event i refer to may well have been caused by the psycho ex slipping something into my coffee and that was at a time i was under extreme duress. in fact, that makes a whole lot more sense given the sharpening of colours, the sensations of the perception of some 'evil' force and, ultimately, after my rejection of that, the perception of a calming and deeply uplifting presence. nowhere did the concept of god/devil arrive in my head, more the perception was a kind of river/sea of darkness/light that i could draw on. the main difference was the dark 'called' to me, whereas the 'light' only made itself known after i'd rejected what the dark offered.

but back to the original question, i believe evil requires deliberate malice and that is something a person chooses to embrace or not and is something separate from mental illness. is it possible for an 'empty vessel' to be used, filled by an evil force - or a good one, for that matter? i don't know.

What a thoughtful and engaging post.

A couple thoughts: maybe the idea of good and evil, or the language we use for them anyway, comes from religion and the concept has no real value outside of a religious definition. Maybe the rest of us should find a different word? Like, saying "Wok is evil" means entirely different things to different traditions. Had a friend call me evil when I went outside for a smoke once...the ensuing conversation resulted in his statement that "I consider anything evil that gets in the way of me being what I want to be." Which he meant in terms of diet and not poisoning himself, not like, rape is justified or whatever. I think that definition may work for him, and the conversation was light banter and not ontology, but it's not especially useful for the rest of us.

Secondly, the experience you had is the sort of thing religions are always talking about and in many cases striving for. They came up with language to define it...and whole mythologies as well. Incidentally, so do a lot of psychedelic drug users. DMT experience reports are full of...beings. Wade Davis is fascinating about it...am I digressing? Imagine that. So, sure, maybe there's dark and light forces, but the labels we use come from Iron Age mythology. Any empiricist would say there's no current way to study such an event, so humans have always sought a way to describe, discuss, consider such things. I'm completely comfortable thinking there's energy shifts and swirls we don't quite perceive all the time. Are they malevolent? Dunno, but I trust your gut.

 

[Peregrinator]

Evil is propagandizing for short term profits, when the consequences of that profiteering include the deaths of tens of thousands every year, and the probable disruption to human civilization.

Nobody who posted with me from around 2004 to 2012 would expect me to disagree with this statement in the slightest, and I still don't.

I call it the Church Of Filthy Lucre, the idolizing of profit over human life. Neci is rolling her beautiful eyes at me right now...

 

[Lorilei]

Gleeful cruelty.

 

[CeriseBuss]

Since reason is man’s basic means of survival, that which is proper to the life of a rational being is the good; that which negates, opposes or destroys it is the evil.

- Ayn Rand.