Deplorable Iran war: "mission accomplished"

[Bray123]

Palestinian deaths by Israeli action since 1948, around 400,000.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli–Palestinian_conflict#Fatalities
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide

The International Court of Justice has found allegations of genocide 'plausible' and ordered that Israel cease and desist. In 2024 arrest warrants were issued by the ICJ for Netanyahu and his Minister for Defense, Gallant.

So proper, qualified international courts view Gaza as genocide.

 

[Bray123]

Here is a challenge for those who deny that there is genocide in Palestine/Gaza.

Compare with the genocide of Armenian Christians by the Ottomans in 1914-16.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide

 

[Cat]

It wasn’t all bullshit.

Well over half of the things Bray stated are easily verified facts. or arguably true on a a certain level.

There was certainly some license taken with the narrative, but hardly egregious.

Bray referring to the crisis in Gaza precipitated by “The Hamas 10/7 rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation” and the subsequent “Hanas Gaza human shield operation” as “Israel’s genocide” IS / WAS beyond the pale, but I get how humanitarian purists might see Israel’s response as over the top.

Uh-huh.
For a country with intel like no one else, that is able to carry out bloody scary, but effective and on point missions like the pager-operation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Lebanon_electronic_device_attacks
You must agree, the total bombing and extreme isolation of an area as big as Gaza.
The killing (and raping!) Ratio, the rhetoric and measures taken.

It just does not add up.

It is beyond justice.

But that is a different discussion, not really one I am willing to dive further into.

Calling people for humanitarian purists?, that was unnecessary.

Yes, BOTH sides made mistakes, and YES I know the parole "both sides means you are siding with "the bad side"" (depending on who you are talking to).
I am just not going to agree.

Annihilating, bombing a land (area) into oblivion, killing everyone without offering proof that they were terrorists, (just calling people terrorists is not going to hold up in court, you need proof!)
Bombing hospitals, denying humanitarian aid.. for months and months.

Arrest orders from the ICC!! (Those are not your everyday arrest orders!!)
On BOTH sides!!

https://www.icc-cpi.int/defendant/netanyahu

https://www.icc-cpi.int/defendant/gallant

https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situat...i-issues-warrant-arrest-mohammed-diab-ibrahim

The fact that the US is so blatantly ignoring this, well.. justice is for everyone, but someone gets a little more than others.

Again: I do at large agree with you - just not in this case. And the words "humanitarian purists" felt a little too dismissive.

Mossad is beyond any doubt the most terrifying and specialised intelligence unit.
There is NOTHING they cannot do.

And yet they went with the plan: let us wipe out this whole group of people as a collective punishment.

That was not justice.

That was hatred and revenge.
And that is why are are warrants for arrests ON BOTH SIDES from the ICC.

(Yes, I am going to use that phrase.)

It is wha it is. All of it.



WE. TOLD. THEM. SO.

 

[Lazaran]

Uh-huh.
For a country with intel like no one else, that are able to carry out bloody scary, but effective and on point missions like the pager-operation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Lebanon_electronic_device_attacks
You must agree, the total bombing and extreme isolation of an area as big as Gaza.
The killing (and raping!) Ratio, the rhetoric and measures taken.

It just does not add up.

It is beyond justice.

But that is a different discussion, not really one I am willing to dive further into.

Calling people for humanitarian purists?, that was unnecessary.

Yes, BOTH sides made mistakes, and YES I know the parole "both sides means you are siding with "the bad side"" (depending on who you are talking to).
I am just not going to agree.

Annihilating, bombing a land (area) into oblivion, killing everyone without offering proof that they were terrorists, (just calling people terrorists are not going to hold up in court, you need proof!)
Bombing hospitals, denying humanitarian aid.. for months and months.

Arrest orders from the ICC!! (Those are not your everyday arrest orders!!)
On BOTH sides!!

https://www.icc-cpi.int/defendant/netanyahu

https://www.icc-cpi.int/defendant/gallant

https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situat...i-issues-warrant-arrest-mohammed-diab-ibrahim

The fact that the US is so blatantly ignoring this, well.. justice is for everyone, but someone gets a little more than others.

Again: I do at large agree with you - just not in this case. And the words "humanitarian purists" felt a little too dismissive.

Mossad is beyond any doubt the most terrifying and specialised intelligence unit.
There is NOTHING they cannot do.

And yet they went with the plan: let us wipe out this whole group of people as a collective punishment.

That was not justice.

That was hatred and revenge.
And that is why are are warrants for arrests ON BOTH SIDES from the ICC.

(Yes, I am going to use that phrase.)

I have a rule of thumb when “choosing a side” in these “both sides” scenarios: “Who started it???” (then I go with the other side as the victim).

Hamas started this latest crisis with their genocidal 10/7 rape, torture, murder and kidnapping operation, and then doubled down with their human shield operation in Gaza.



And, yes, Mossad is good. But NO ONE is good enough to infiltrate a terrorist tunnel system / network like what Hamas (with the aid of Iran, Russia, China, etc,) had prepared in Gaza (instead of improving the lives of their people….)



It is what it is.



We. Told. Them. So.

 

[Cat]

I have a rule of thumb when “choosing a side” in these “both sides” scenarios: “Who started it???” (then I go with the other side as the victim).

Hamas started this latest crisis with their genocidal 10/7 rape, torture, murder and kidnapping operation, and then doubled down with their human shield operation in Gaza.



And, yes, Mossad is good. But NO ONE is good enough to infiltrate a terrorist tunnel system / network like what Hamas (with the aid of Iran, Russia, China, etc,) had prepared in Gaza (instead of improving the lives of their people….)



It is what it is.



We. Told. Them. So.

So you are telling me, and you mean this honestly?! That whatever Israel wanted to do after the 7/10 massacre, that is would be justified?!

Whatever they wanted to do.

Because Hamas started it. Then the Israeli leaders can kill as many Palestinians as they want?

The ratio does not matter. The means does not matter. NOTHING matters.
The reason why Hamas did it does not matter.

And just to be clear: what happened there 7/10 was absolutely disgusting!! It was terror, it was a massacre, it was terrible.
But genocide?! Awwww... Now who is stretching that word?
Did they try to hinder a people as a whole to reproduce?
Did they destroy health facilities on a large scale?
Did they cause hunger and infant mortality because of denying the people food?!

I mean, there are criteria for "genocide" actions. They are quite unpleasant.

I am not dismissing the fact that what took place that day was absolutely inhumane and disgusting.

But do not use the word genocide that casually.

What Israel did as a collective punishment. It went too far.

There is not really anything more to say about that.

The ICC arrest warrants talk their own language.

 

[Lazaran]

So you are telling me, and you mean this honestly?! That whatever Israel wanted to do after the 7/10 massacre, that is would be justified?!

Whatever they wanted to do.

Because Hamas started it. Then the Israeli leaders can kill as many Palestinians as they want?

The ratio does not matter. The means does not matter. NOTHING matters.
The reason why Hamas did it does not matter.

And just to be clear: what happened there 7/10 was absolutely disgusting!! It was terror, it was a massacre, it was terrible.
But genocide?! Awwww... Now who is stretching that word?
Did they try to hinder a people as a whole to reproduce?
Did they destroy health facilities on a large scale?
Did they cause hunger and infant mortality because of denying the people food?!

I mean, there are criteria for "genocide" actions. They are quite unpleasant.

I am not dismissing the fact that what took place that day was absolutely inhumane and disgusting.

But do not use the word genocide that casually.

What Israel did as a collective punishment. It went too far.

There is not really anything more to say about that.

The ICC arrest warrants talk their own language.

We’re going to have to stop here.

You are assigning me positions I never voiced.

I said what I said (and I meant EXACTLY what I said).

And you are becoming a bit histrionic with your assertions that Israel went too far against the population of Gaza - while at WAR with Gaza.

The U.S. (under President Biden at least) made EVERY effort to see to it that the TRULY innocent individuals in Gaza were given significant measures of mercy. It sucks that the terror network in Gaza was so… “complete”, as it made almost all of Gaza a legitimate target - but it is what it is (or was what it was)…



Meanwhile:

"Some people" said / BELIEVED DonOld & the MAGAt republicans would be / could do better for Gaza and the Middle East, etc than President Biden, Vice President Harris, and the decent Democrats…



WE. TOLD. THEM. SO.

 

[Cat]

We’re going to have to stop here.

You are assigning me positions I never voiced.

I said what I said (and I meant EXACTLY what I said).

And you are becoming a bit histrionic with your assertions that Israel went too far against the population of Gaza - while at WAR with Gaza.

The U.S. (under President Biden at least) made EVERY effort to see to it that the TRULY innocent individuals in Gaza were given significant measures of mercy. It sucks that the terror network in Gaza was so… “complete”, as it made almost all of Gaza a legitimate target - but it is what it is (or was what it was)…



Meanwhile:

"Some people" said / BELIEVED DonOld & the MAGAt republicans would be / could do better for Gaza and the Middle East, etc than President Biden, Vice President Harris, and the decent Democrats…



WE. TOLD. THEM. SO.

I agree that we should stop.

And without calling eachother names. It should be possible to be of different convictions and disagree, without calling eachother histrionic.

This does not change the fact that I do often agree with you though.
Just not in this matter.

Which is absolutely fine with me. We do not need to agree about everything, and this is not something either of us can do anything about.

 

[Lazaran]

I agree that we should stop.

And without calling eachother names. It should be possible to be of different convictions and disagree, without calling eachother histrionic.

This does not change the fact that I do often agree with you though.
Just not in this matter.

Which is absolutely fine with me. We do not need to agree about everything, and this is not something either of us can do anything about.

I suspect we largely agree on most things, but on the Israel - Gaza - "Palestine" - Middle East perpetual crisis, I must remain steadfast in my defense of Israel when considering “the big picture”.

I meant no serious offense with my use of “histrionic”, as I was using it for effect after perceiving a rise in temperature from your end - suggesting that I support “Israel’s genocide" (which I DON’T believe is / was genocide, but DO believe is / was heavy handed and involved specific instances that warrant investigations / prosecutions for violations of international law).





Side note:

I honestly believe 10/7 (or 7/10) caused Israel such a traumatic shock that they felt existentially threatened (and Iran’s gloating about “boiling Israel like a frog”didn’t help - especially considering the fact that Iran was simultaneously being aided by Russia and China, etc).

Israel’s guiding star is “Never again”.

I believe that ^ means Israel (Jews) will never go down without an all out fight again.

I also believe some outsiders think they get to decide what qualifies as an existential threat for Israel.

That ^ is arrogant and insensitive, imho - especially considering the historical record.

Just sayin’…



We. Told. Them. So.

 

[Cat]

I suspect we largely agree on most things, but on the Israel - Gaza - "Palestine" - Middle East perpetual crisis, I must remain steadfast in my defense of Israel when considering “the big picture”.

I meant no serious offense with my use of “histrionic”, as I was using it for effect after perceiving a rise in temperature from your end - suggesting that I support “Israel’s genocide" (which I DON’T believe is / was genocide, but DO believe is / was heavy handed
and involved specific instances that warrant investigations / prosecutions for violations of international law).





Side note:

I honestly believe 10/7 (or 7/10) caused Israel such a traumatic shock that they felt existentially threatened (and Iran’s gloating about “boiling Israel like a frog”didn’t help - especially considering the fact that Iran was simultaneously being aided by Russia and China, etc).

Israel’s guiding star is “Never again”.

I believe that ^ means Israel (Jews) will never go down without an all out fight again.

I also believe some outsiders think they get to decide what qualifies as an existential threat for Israel.

That ^ is arrogant and insensitive, imho - especially considering historical record.

Just sayin’…



We. Told. Them. So.

Well... I am a child of Denmark. With all the history that follows.

My family was "freedom fighters" during the WW2 (I use "" because while I do know how I see it, and how history sees it.. if Hitlers Nazism won, then they would not have been called "freedom fighters", just as I do know that the actions the "freedom fighters" committed, they would not hold up in a court. It was sabotage, it was murder, it was a lot of bad things. In the name of "fighting for freedom").
My family was also a part of the underground network who helped the Jews out of the country.

Everyone that grows up in Europe learns these things, and some of us hear the stories from our grandparents.
I have an best friend who's grandmother got the numbers tattooed. She was one of the "freedom fighters" that got caught, but luckily for her: it was almost at the end of the war.

It was not only Jews who got caught.

Intellectuals. Journalists. "Freedom fighters".

So, I get it. I get it that the history is heavy and loaded.

Which is why I seriously try not to choose a side. Because I know that both sides will make stupid, stupid.. stupid mistakes.
And that I could easily get emotionally affected by it.

Hey, take my brother's serving in Afghanistan, (making me want to swear, that was not our war) what happened down there? The stories I have heard from his brothers in arms.
Again. Both sides. No one is perfect.

And I hate that.

Therefore whenever anyone, really, anyone! Says: There is only one culprit! I am innocent.

Then I have a few possible ways to react:

I can shrug and say "okay".
I can agree.
I can disagree and voice my reasons why.

Sometimes one option is more right than the others. But never edit: rarely, rarely is one reason the right one.

Again: we all got access to almost the same information, almost. But it is presented to us differently, we interpret it differently and our cultural background makes us feel differently.

And feelings are a huge part of this. Sadly.. or maybe not? Maybe feelings are the things that makes us humans.

As a conclusion:
I do believe you are right, that we at large agree about most things, which I think is a good sign?
Just as I think it is healthy and a good thing, that we are able to talk about events like those that are happening around the world, even though we might not agree - I for sure have learnt a lot from our discussion, and I might respect you more than I did before.

 

[ShandyLeer]

Every bit of that is the truth, you idiot, including the thing about Trump's aching joints.

‘Every word is true’ my ass. Iran are “nowhere near” a nuclear capability and the US being beaten by fucking Cuba are complete nonsense for a start.

Of course you don’t get it that Iran was nearing a point where it was going to be unviable to deter or contain them any longer thanks to the damage they could inflict via ballistic missile, drone and wider terrorist network capabilities in the region.

These things mean nothing to you, because you can’t see beyond Palestine or Trump, but they do matter.

There is, also, the small issue of brutalised Iranians, especially women, having a shot at turfing out these lunatic waxwork mullahs and the IRGC scum…….but naturally you couldn’t give a mention, nor two fucks, for them.

 

[Wilson23]

There is, also, the small issue of brutalised Iranians, especially women, having a shot at turfing out these lunatic waxwork mullahs and the IRGC scum…….but naturally you couldn’t give a mention, nor two fucks, for them.

That IS a small issue, in the sense of being none of our business. Nothing short of genocide would warrant making it our business. If we're gonna be THAT way, the Uighurs in China and a whole lot more groups in Russia are first in line to be saved.

 

[ShandyLeer]

Palestinian deaths by Israeli action since 1948, around 400,000.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli–Palestinian_conflict#Fatalities
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide

The International Court of Justice has found allegations of genocide 'plausible' and ordered that Israel cease and desist. In 2024 arrest warrants were issued by the ICJ for Netanyahu and his Minister for Defense, Gallant.

So proper, qualified international courts view Gaza as genocide.

If you think the ICC is an honest broker I’ve got a car to sell you……

 

[ShandyLeer]

That IS a small issue, in the sense of being none of our business. Nothing short of genocide would warrant making it our business. If we're gonna be THAT way, the Uighurs in China and a whole lot more groups in Russia are first in line to be saved.

No.

It takes less than genocide within a country to justify intervention. Iraq was a perfect example, and Iran certainly are. Being complicit in international terrorism is one reason. And fucking about developing weapons of mass destruction is another.

That’s the simple international law on this.

And that’s before you take realpolitik into account.

The old bullshit about how, if you intervene in place x, you’re somehow obliged to intervene in place y and z is just not how it goes.

 

[Wilson23]

If you think the ICC is an honest broker I’ve got a car to sell you……

There ain't no MORE honest institution in the world. Certainly not the SCOTUS.

 

[Wilson23]

No.

It takes less than genocide within a country to justify intervention. Iraq was a perfect example

Very bad example. That intervention was NOT justified -- and now, in hindsight, not even in any way a good idea.

 

[Bray123]

If you think the ICC is an honest broker I’ve got a car to sell you……

Is it being driven over London Bridge?

 

[ShandyLeer]

Very bad example. That intervention was NOT justified -- and now, in hindsight, not even in any way a good idea.

Yes, it WAS justified in international law - it’s just that you don’t know the law, and don’t want to believe you’re wrong.

The issue wasn’t whether Iraq had defied the law sufficient to justify intervention by the international community, it was - as ever - what the international community was willing to do about it.

 

[stxjimmy]

Yes, it WAS justified in international law - it’s just that you don’t know the law, and don’t want to believe you’re wrong.

The issue wasn’t whether Iraq had defied the law sufficient to justify intervention by the international community, it was - as ever - what the international community was willing to do about it.

It’s not justified when you have to make up the intelligence from an internet report.

 

[coati]

Hey, if the Pig already won the war, why is he now begging European nations to fight Iran in the Strait of Hormuz?

 

[Wilson23]

Yes, it WAS justified in international law - it’s just that you don’t know the law, and don’t want to believe you’re wrong.

The issue wasn’t whether Iraq had defied the law sufficient to justify intervention by the international community, it was - as ever - what the international community was willing to do about it.

It was a major war based on nonexistent and dishonestly misprepresented threats. Hussein had no weapons of mass destruction. He had no connection to 9/11 or al-Qaeda. He was not in active alliance with other countries designated "The Axis of Evil." He was no threat to anybody outside his own country and the Kurds were already protected by a no-fly zone. You could live a safe and prosperous life in Iraq if you kept your mouth shut about politics and, if a woman, escaped the attention of Hussein's sons. It was not a Hitler-level situation, and it was completely unprovoked. It was as if FDR had responded to the attack on Pearl Harbor by invading Brazil. Nobody got anything worthwhile out of it, except the Kurds who gained some regional autonomy. It cost enormously more blood and treasure, both American and Iraqi, than was anticipated or tolerable. It destabilized the region and led to the emergence of ISIS. It eliminated the principal check on the power of Iran in the region. And it didn't even help with the price of gas. We were supposed to get oil as LOOT out of that war! The W Admin couldn't even deliver that!

 

[ShandyLeer]

It was a major war based on nonexistent and dishonestly misprepresented threats. Hussein had no weapons of mass destruction. He had no connection to 9/11 or al-Qaeda. He was not in active alliance with other countries designated "The Axis of Evil." He was no threat to anybody outside his own country and the Kurds were already protected by a no-fly zone. You could live a safe and prosperous life in Iraq if you kept your mouth shut about politics and, if a woman, escaped the attention of Hussein's sons. It was not a Hitler-level situation, and it was completely unprovoked. It was as if FDR had responded to the attack on Pearl Harbor by invading Brazil. Nobody got anything worthwhile out of it, except the Kurds who gained some regional autonomy. It cost enormously more blood and treasure, both American and Iraqi, than was anticipated or tolerable. It destabilized the region and led to the emergence of ISIS. It eliminated the principal check on the power of Iran in the region. And it didn't even help with the price of gas. We were supposed to get oil as LOOT out of that war! The W Admin couldn't even deliver that!

You aren’t getting it are you?

The Iraq invasion was sold on the wmd story, because that’s what focus groups told politicians would sell to the public. Plus, at the time, it was believed by everyone to be based on at least a fundamental truth……namely that Iraq did possess WMD in some form.

That’s the politics of it.

But international law is very clear on what behaviours by a nation can, in layman’s terms, render it a ward of court. Entitlement to continued statehood lost.

Iraq tripped all those legal wires multiple times - use of WMD on the civilian population, breaches of non proliferation protocols, repeated invasion of neighbours and a significant involvement in international terrorism - and was in no position to complain when it got toppled.

 

[SkyBubble]

The Iraq invasion was sold on the wmd story

Not exclusively. That was one of 13 reasons Secretary Powell listed for the war.

 

[ShandyLeer]

Not exclusively. That ws one of 13 reasons Secretary Powell listed for the war.

For reasons best known to them the leadership chose not to level with the public entirely. Presumably because they figured we wouldn’t get it.

 

[SkyBubble]

It looks like they were wrong about WMDs, though they did find evidence of a WMD program. And reporter Bill Gertz reported on Soviet trucks removing something (that might or might not have been WMDs) in covered trucks from Iraq to Syria.

That doesn't prove they lied. It shows they got bad intelligence. But when five or so of the top intelligence agencies in the world tell you the same thing, you're likely going to believe it.

But again, that was just one of the reasons for the war. Another, and I think this was a stronger selling point, is that some of the terrorists we were driving out of Afghanistan were being harbored in Iraq by Saddam's regime. That made Iraq another theater of the Afghan war.

 

[stxjimmy]

Negotiations two days before the war began

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...s-iran-talks-and-judged-deal-was-within-reach