Disaster in the Making

[RobDownSouth]

I do not see a disaster here!

For the "Armenian Genocide" I am going to leave this here from the perspective of a Jewish historian Bernard Lewis.

It is an insult to survivors of holocaust when you call what happened to Armenians a genocide. You would be diluting the word genocide. Armenian descendants in America can possibly lobby and have the legislature to pass laws, but does that mean it happened?

Fuck their snowflake fee-fees and their revisionist horseshit. Seriously.

The word "genocide" itself was coined specifically to describe the systemic annihilation of Armenians.

Raphael Lemkin was moved specifically by the annihilation of the Armenians to define systematic and premeditated exterminations within legal parameters and to coin the word genocide in 1943. The Armenian Genocide is acknowledged to have been one of the first modern genocides, because scholars point to the organized manner in which the killings were carried out. It is the second-most-studied case of genocide after the Holocaust.

Turkey denies that the word genocide is an accurate term for these crimes, but in recent years has been faced with increasing calls to recognize them as such. As of 2019, governments and parliaments of 32 countries, including Brazil, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Russia, and the United States, have recognized the events as a genocide.

LINK

 

[dagdag]

Fuck their snowflake fee-fees and their revisionist horseshit. Seriously.

The word "genocide" itself was coined specifically to describe the systemic annihilation of Armenians.



LINK

Interesting, you just called an eminent professor of history, who happens to be Jewish, a revisionist horseshit. and you did that seriously. You may be feeling strongly about this Armenian atrocities, but listening to what he says from a historian's perspective makes me lean towards his line of thinking.

Government's legislature can pass resolutions like the US House just passed last week overwhelmingly, but seems the legislators are being the revisionists and interfering with the historians line of work. French had evidently sued him a historian for his findings! I am guessing that there is a huge Armenian diaspora in France!

Considering Lemkin coined the word in 1943, it is legally a crime. I wonder why would not Armenians bring a law-suit similar to the Nuremberg trials. Armenians tried twice at the UN, but rejected UN to confirm it as genocide. Perhaps, perhaps, it is not a genocide.

 

[ishtat]

It is an insult to survivors of holocaust when you call what happened to Armenians a genocide. You would be diluting the word genocide. Armenian descendants in America can possibly lobby and have the legislature to pass laws, but does that mean it happened?

The Turks themselves officially admit they killed 300,000 Armenian Christians between 1914 and 1923 through mass murder, starvation and forced ethnic cleansing. Their primary objection is to the Armenians claim that it was 1.5 million deaths.

Independent sources generally put the death toll at about 1 million. But if you think that is not genocide I guess that is your problem, but to describe it as an insult to survivors of Holocaust is absurd.

 

[dagdag]

The Turks themselves officially admit they killed 300,000 Armenian Christians between 1914 and 1923 through mass murder, starvation and forced ethnic cleansing. Their primary objection is to the Armenians claim that it was 1.5 million deaths.

Independent sources generally put the death toll at about 1 million. But if you think that is not genocide I guess that is your problem, but to describe it as an insult to survivors of Holocaust is absurd.

If Turks are admitting to it, why is their president saying there were no genocide?

It is not what I think, how am i supposed to know what happened, i was not even born at that time.. I am simply sharing an eminent historian, Bernard Lewis's statement on Armenian Genocide. An armed rebellion he says and they joined Russians! wow... their national liberation ended up with their deportation from one place to another of the country.. and massacres happened he says, but not a genocide.. if you haven't watched the video, i would highly recommend it.

Here...

It is an insult to Holocaust survivors since they did not had an armed rebellion against the German government. It is an insult since you are simply diluting the word's meaning to massacre.

It is not important what I believe. No one is holding, barring Armenians from filing a law suit such as the Nuremberg trials. They can have their day in the court and have this validated.. Considering, they have been rejected by the UN twice, I am guessing that all we hear is noise of the Armenian propaganda. Those attempts by putting it through the legislative branches of governments are clearly not helping anyone.

The world was flat at some point!!! Just saying, keeping an open mind might make things round

 

[ishtat]

It is not what I think, how am i supposed to know what happened, i was not even born at that time.. I am simply sharing an eminent historian, Bernard Lewis's statement on Armenian Genocide.

)

I decided not to respond because you are clearly profoundly un-informed. There is however a detailed wiki article attached which will help you with the basics. Read that, look at the contemporaneous reports and photographs and then perhaps re-consider the evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

Bernard Lewis was a good/controversial historian of the Arab world as a younger man. In later life he rashly extrapolated his assumptions quite wrongly to Non-Arab Iran and Turkey. Then even later, he became a quite disastrous political advisor to the Bush administration with respect to those areas.

Also ask yourself why have concerned Jews in the Israeli Knesset sought to acknowledge the fact of the massacres of Armenian Christians. Then look at the contemporaneous Jewish media reports of the Hamidan killings and those of 1915-23 when Zionists in the Ottoman Empire actively sought the repression of Armenians to curry favour with the Sultan. The Jews were obviously never involved in those killings but in the light of their own experience in the 1940's it is little wonder they are troubled by the memory.

I will try as you recommend to keep an open mind and will recommend in turn that you do not retain an entirely vacant one.

 

[dagdag]

I decided not to respond because you are clearly profoundly un-informed. There is however a detailed wiki article attached which will help you with the basics. Read that, look at the contemporaneous reports and photographs and then perhaps re-consider the evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

Bernard Lewis was a good/controversial historian of the Arab world as a younger man. In later life he rashly extrapolated his assumptions quite wrongly to Non-Arab Iran and Turkey. Then even later, he became a quite disastrous political advisor to the Bush administration with respect to those areas.

Also ask yourself why have concerned Jews in the Israeli Knesset sought to acknowledge the fact of the massacres of Armenian Christians. Then look at the contemporaneous Jewish media reports of the Hamidan killings and those of 1915-23 when Zionists in the Ottoman Empire actively sought the repression of Armenians to curry favour with the Sultan. The Jews were obviously never involved in those killings but in the light of their own experience in the 1940's it is little wonder they are troubled by the memory.

I will try as you recommend to keep an open mind and will recommend in turn that you do not retain an entirely vacant one.

Thank you for the link. I am reading it, however it is long and going to take a while.

I am troubled with the fact that you are asserting that an eminent historian specialized in that subject is wrong! I am guessing that the link would have other historians to his caliber would refute his findings.

Parliamentarians, parliaments passing resolutions doesn't mean that they are reflecting history, but only their constituents' will. You have noted that Knesset has sought to acknowledge the massacres. I doubt that their inner workings are any different; get elected!!! Getting elected is the first and foremost priority. Historians on the other hand do their research and share their findings, and subject to peer review.

From what i have read from your link so far, it sounds like everyone else get a country from the failing Ottoman empire, but the Armenians. Greeks, Romanians, Bulgarians, Arabs got their own countries carved but not the Armenians.

Also, How many Ottomans were killed by the Armenian Liberation movement claiming "self defense"?
How were they able to live together under the same empire for hundreds of years and suddenly faced extermination? That simple question makes Bernard Lewis' explanation plausible.

I just finished reading Hamidian massacres on your link. Ottomans after losing a war with the Russians, fighting for their own survival. After that hit why would they be worried about Armenians? i am not questioning if they did have the Kurds "deal" with the Armenians or not at this time, but assuming that they did. I am asking why? Why would "Ottoman officials intentionally provoked rebellions"? when they are fighting for their own survival.

I am also still confused to why Turkish president doesn't recognize but they do accept that Armenians were killed. Would that be they are stating that those killings were not systematic but part of the war? Armenians rebel to get their own country carved, and Ottomans respond in kind... i'll finish reading the link first..

 

[Conager]

Istat and DagDag, I just wanted to acknowledge from the sidelines that I am enjoying and learning from this exchange. It's nice to see actual exchanges, rather than people simply talking past each other. The quality of the barbs were first-rate as well.

It often gets overlooked that there are people here who have good depth of knowledge of subjects that they are discussing. It's also possible for two people with some in-depth knowledge to have either blind spots Miss understanding of actual events in or just honest differences of opinion.

There's entirely too much instantaneous expertise slung around here from people who've never read a book but can sure Google for confirmation bias.

 

[dagdag]

Istat and DagDag, I just wanted to acknowledge from the sidelines that I am enjoying and learning from this exchange. It's nice to see actual exchanges, rather than people simply talking past each other. The quality of the barbs were first-rate as well.

It often gets overlooked that there are people here who have good depth of knowledge of subjects that they are discussing. It's also possible for two people with some in-depth knowledge to have either blind spots Miss understanding of actual events in or just honest differences of opinion.

There's entirely too much instantaneous expertise slung around here from people who've never read a book but can sure Google for confirmation bias.

Thank you!

I think Google is a lot of help, but obviously it is not a panacea.

Given so much disinformation and propaganda, it is even more difficult to reach to the truth of the matter on events that took more than hundred years ago. Especially when they were the enemies at that time. Alliances surely have changed but the propaganda wars continue. Hence my insistence on the historians.

 

[dagdag]

I was able to read more on the link.

First thing that strike me was the choice of words. Constantinople was used over the Wikipedia on an ongoing basis. Ottomans changed the name in 1453 when they invaded and occupied the city. It has been Istanbul since. If that name was used for the era before 1453, that would be totally fine, but if the references are using the older name any time after that year tells me that they are either approaching the issue from the Greek perspective, or they have hopes to get Istanbul back to the old Byzantine dream! Certainly biased in any case. I thought Wikipedia would be more conscious about those references. I guess not. I wonder what does Greeks have anything to do with this anyways. Perhaps, Armenians want Byzantine back as well who knows.

The more I read, the more questions come to mind. Ottomans had a coup d’etat, at the same time fighting within themselves, and losing more battles everywhere. Losing Balkans and followed up with another loss to the Russians. They seem to be in deep trouble even without the Armenians. There is no reference to what Armenians did at all. It is presented as if they are simply defending themselves. Ottomans on the other hand doesn’t seem to be able to protect themselves either. Neither on the west in Balkans, or on the east front from the Russians. Ottomans don’t seem to be capable of doing anything!!!

Massive Armenian rebels joining Russians which noted by Bernard Lewis… “Considerable evidence attempting to stop irregulars’ massacres” he notes for the Ottoman side. He also notes that drawing parallels to Holocaust is absurd. “You would have to assume the Jews were in an armed rebellion against the state. And in the deportation order cities of Hamburg and Berlin was exempted. The persons of the employment of the state were exempted. And those for the Jews of the Germany proper would be deported and would have to be welcome when they arrived to the camp sites!”

In other words, Armenians are in an armed rebellion against to Ottoman Empire. I don’t blame them; get something for yourself while there is a party going on carving land from a failing empire. Deportation order of the Armenians were only on the fronts where the Turks were fighting the Russians.. None of the Armenians on the west were deported. Thirdly, the state officials of Armenian descent were not deported either. Last but not the least, they were not killed when they arrived at their destination. If I am not mistaken it seems to be the current Lebanon.
I looked at Taner Akcam who is presented as the leading scholar and historian on the subject. He seems to be Turkish, and escaped from Turkey at early ages. I wonder how he was able to access to the historical records when he can not enter the country, and make a dissertation on the subject from Germany!!! Unlike Bernard Shaw, who had access to Turkish, Russian historical records on the respective countries!

I have yet to finish this lengthy link, but the idea that I have so far is that Armenians suffered losses, but it does not amount to a genocide based on what I have read so far. I have yet to read to Turkish point of view as well. I wonder how many Ottomans died etc. Clearly war business is not good.

On the back of my mind, the main question remains;
1) Why do not Armenians have a trial against the Turks similar to Nuremberg trials to prove in a court of law per Lemkin’s Genocide definition?

2) How come UN rejected the Armenian claims twice?

I am going to continue reading and perhaps, I’ll have the answers

 

[suurfer]

But apparently there is a historian (Taner Akçam) who claims to have written documents from that period (see The Krikor Guerguerian Archive) that support the genocide theory, dagdag:


"Among the most noteworthy materials are ciphered telegrams that the Ottoman Interior Minister Talat Pasha, army commanders, and the chief of the government’s paramilitary sent to governors throughout the Empire. Some of these telegrams, written on government letterhead stamped with the official Ottoman seal, clearly outline the Ottoman government’s planning and execution of the genocide."
https://clarknow.clarku.edu/2018/12...al-archive-documenting-the-armenian-genocide/

The Krikor Guerguerian Archive
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/guerguerianarchive/



Or so says google.
Did anyone disconfirm his theories, or doubt the authenticity of those documents?

 

[suurfer]

On the other hand, the way US politicians "legislated history" (to paraphrase dagdag) and politicized History by acknowledging Armenian genocide last month....

I can understand Erdogan's fury: with all it's bad past, Turkey's national integrity IS being threatened, and Dems. are encouraging it.

 

[dagdag]

But apparently there is a historian (Taner Akçam) who claims to have written documents from that period (see The Krikor Guerguerian Archive) that support the genocide theory, dagdag:


"Among the most noteworthy materials are ciphered telegrams that the Ottoman Interior Minister Talat Pasha, army commanders, and the chief of the government’s paramilitary sent to governors throughout the Empire. Some of these telegrams, written on government letterhead stamped with the official Ottoman seal, clearly outline the Ottoman government’s planning and execution of the genocide."
https://clarknow.clarku.edu/2018/12...al-archive-documenting-the-armenian-genocide/

The Krikor Guerguerian Archive
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/guerguerianarchive/



Or so says google.
Did anyone disconfirm his theories, or doubt the authenticity of those documents?

I haven't.

I came across to Nuremberg Trials where they have not admitted the Hitler quote following Turk's example for the genocide...I am guessing that there is a lot of propaganda wars going on.

On the Google link on wikipedia, on the Terminology;

The Armenian Genocide took place before the coining of the term genocide. English-language words and phrases used by contemporary accounts to characterise the event include "massacres", "atrocities", "annihilation", "holocaust", "the murder of a nation", "race extermination" and "a crime against humanity".[22] Raphael Lemkin coined "genocide" in 1943, with the fate of the Armenians in mind; he later explained that: "it happened so many times ... It happened to the Armenians, then after the Armenians Hitler took action."[23]

This explains why the Armenians are not taking this to a court or tribunal. They can not have a case. I take that that's why the UN dismissed those genocide allegations.

1948 UN Convention on Genocide notes on article VI

"Persons charged with genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in article III shall be tried by a competent tribunal of the State in the territory of which the act was committed, or by such international penal tribunal as may have jurisdiction with respect to those Contracting Parties which shall have accepted its jurisdiction."

I have yet to see a verdict on such a tribunal, or any attempt to bring this up for actual genocide charges.

Unless I am shown a verdict on such tribunal, all this "Armenian Genocide" seems to be wishful thinking on the Armenians.

 

[suurfer]

I'll read your links today. As Q said, you are an asset to these threads, many thanks
With the risk of sounding... (history&geopolitics aren't my strength):

What's the ulterior motive with Turkey?

Erdogan's attempts to spread neo-ottomans in the Balkans, as well as the persecutions of Christians there have been swept under the carpet by mass media.
On the other hand, they encourage YPG and those who aim at a partition of Turkey.

 

[dagdag]

I'll read your links today. As Q said, you are an asset to these threads, many thanks
With the risk of sounding... (history&geopolitics aren't my strength):

What's the ulterior motive with Turkey?

Erdogan's attempts to spread neo-ottomans in the Balkans, as well as the persecutions of Christians there have been swept under the carpet by mass media.
On the other hand, they encourage YPG and those who aim at a partition of Turkey.

I think that Turkey is trying to save itself being carved and partitioned. They are looking at PKK/YPG as an existential threat. They need to sit down and talk with the Esad administration, which they want ousted, in order to resolve that issue. Obama administration, reciting congress, did not sell patriot missiles, and Turkey ended up buying Russian missiles. Now that they bought the Russian missiles, they are suspended from the F35 program. And, if CAATSA sanctions are implemented, it may end up being counterproductive and result in less US Arms sales and also more Russian Chinese arms sales. We can start talking about who lost Turkey if that happens. Russians are happy to divide NATO! We are shooting ourselves by those actions. Congress talking about deserting an ally (the kurdish terrorists). The cost of deserting a NATO ally would have significant impact on our arms sales and a strategically located ally.

The death toll in Syria is negligible at this time. Look at the death toll of Iraq in the hundreds of thousands! So there is no disaster in Syria. Obama's flip flop on the regime change plan left the Turks on their own for the regime change plan!!! oops!

 

[LupusDei]

I am troubled with the fact that you are asserting that an eminent historian specialized in that subject is wrong! I am guessing that the link would have other historians to his caliber would refute his findings.

Welcome to the world where historical interpretations are hot political battlegrounds, among highly decorated academics no less than common pundits.

 

[bellisarius]

Welcome to the world where historical interpretations are hot political battlegrounds, among highly decorated academics no less than common pundits.

What irritates me is the notion that we have to stick our nose in everyone else's squabble. "Can't we just get along?" Well, no we can't. About the best we can do is to prevent the after school fist fight evolve into an out and out brawl. The Turks and the Kurds will sort their differences out eventually, that difference is not a threat to world peace or the security of the US unless we want to start placing bets on whose dog is going to win. Trump made a smart move and no one wants to give him credit for it - yet.

 

[dagdag]

What irritates me is the notion that we have to stick our nose in everyone else's squabble. "Can't we just get along?" Well, no we can't. About the best we can do is to prevent the after school fist fight evolve into an out and out brawl. The Turks and the Kurds will sort their differences out eventually, that difference is not a threat to world peace or the security of the US unless we want to start placing bets on whose dog is going to win. Trump made a smart move and no one wants to give him credit for it - yet.

We are certainly not the police for the rest of the world. Trump's decision was correct and a smart move.

 

[dagdag]

I am also going to leave this here so that, the Turkish Kurdish relationship is not of hatred. They fought together in the WWI. They are married to each other over the centuries of living together.

Factcheck

This video probably explains it a little bit better.

 

[RobDownSouth]

I am troubled with the fact that you are asserting that an eminent historian specialized in that subject is wrong!

Unanimous United States Senate declaration asserts "eminent historian" (discredited crackpot "professor" and paid Turkish shill Bernard Lewis) is wrong, and that there really WAS an Armenian Genocide. Trump and Turkish dictator Erdogan reportedly furious. Whiny Turkish revisionist dagdag placed on suicide watch.

Note to Que/Conager: "Unanimous" means ever single one.

Interestingly, the same resolution failed on the unanimous consent calendar 99-1 last month. Leningrad Lindsey Graham objected back then, saying it would have been impolite to insult visiting Turkish dictator Erdogan on his US visit.

 

[Rightguide]

Has Algo reported the Disaster yet?

 

[IrezumiKiss]

Has Algo reported the Disaster yet?

You seem to be infatuated with her.

Horny, much?

 

[schism666]

You seem to be infatuated with her.

Horny, much?

I'd say more lonely than horny.

 

[Rightguide]

I'd say more lonely than horny.

Who me? Neither would be true. I couldn't possibly have a relationship with a woman who didn't share my political views, so I have no "infatuation" with Algo as a woman. I am interested in what makes her continue to develop ideas and narratives without an iota of merit or evidence, hence my interest in her warning that a disaster is eminent. Like, where is it?

 

[schism666]

Who me? Neither would be true. I couldn't possibly have a relationship with a woman who didn't share my political views, so I have no "infatuation" with Algo as a woman. I am interested in what makes her continue to develop ideas and narratives without an iota of merit or evidence, hence my interest in her warning that a disaster is eminent. Like, where is it?

you're not interested in a smart beautiful woman? imagine that

 

[Rightguide]

you're not interested in a smart beautiful woman? imagine that

Would you endure a relationship that amounted to a constant battle of wits over fundamnetal beliefs? I think not.