Diversity - a faux pas?

[CharleyH]

It was pointed out to me that bringing up the heritage/ culture of a character in a short story does not work and should be omitted unless it is pertinent to the plot.

I believe that to give a physical image of a character and enhance their diversity in such a short space, it's more concise and doesn't hurt to give heritage whether is has anything to do with plot or not. For example a character is Spanish, British or Jamaican.

Herein lies a conundrum though: one assumes that there is a stereotype as to what one looks like if they are Spanish, British or Jamaican as oppossed to Mexican, American or Kenyan. One assumes: olive-skinned, white, black.

So, should heritage/ culture be omitted if it only speaks to physical description and is not pertinent to plot? Or does it really matter?

 

[oggbashan]

How short is short?

If it really is a short story (as in normal short not Og-short) then anything not absolutely necessary should be left out.

If something is mentioned about the character it must be relevant TO THAT STORY. If it has no bearing on the plot or development it shouldn't be there.

Og (Didactically)

 

[CharleyH]

Re: How short is short?

If it really is a short story (as in normal short not Og-short) then anything not absolutely necessary should be left out.

If something is mentioned about the character it must be relevant TO THAT STORY. If it has no bearing on the plot or development it shouldn't be there.

Og (Didactically)

Well, I have seen your sentances - lol - so I can only imagine. Lets say under 4000 words.

And, what if it is relevant to character, but not plot?

Charley (Pedagogically)

 

[Guest]

Y n' n.

 

[FlyontheWall99]

It was pointed out to me that bringing up the heritage/ culture of a character in a short story does not work and should be omitted unless it is pertinent to the plot.

I believe that to give a physical image of a character and enhance their diversity in such a short space, it's more concise and doesn't hurt to give heritage whether is has anything to do with plot or not. For example a character is Spanish, British or Jamaican.

Herein lies a conundrum though: one assumes that there is a stereotype as to what one looks like if they are Spanish, British or Jamaican as oppossed to Mexican, American or Kenyan. One assumes: olive-skinned, white, black.

So, should heritage/ culture be omitted if it only speaks to physical description and is not pertinent to plot? Or does it really matter?

I don't see a problem with it. It is important to define your characters so heritage is very important. Sure in some stories it is not necessary, but I can't see how adding a character's heritage to a short story will suddenly kill it.

 

[gauchecritic]

In my story "Abigail Slaughter" I have a female Indian character. During the course of her window shopping she describes herself as "A big fat cow". The character is short and thin and if she were not Indian but white English then she could never have thought of herself as a big fat cow. As to plot relevance: Feh. Although this is only apparent from her name. hmm

Her opposite number by contrast was tall, ginger and consequently, very white.

Now I think about it, although I never consciously began with that intention, it became a very useful plot device for contrasting them, thereby creating a visual tension to complement/contrast with the sexual tension in the last scene.

Which means I'm an even better writer than I thought I was.

Gauche

 

[Boxlicker101]

I see nothing wrong with including descriptions of the characters and this might include ethnicity. Even if ethnicity is not mentioned, a descripton might tend to indicate it. Such as: Her dark brown nipples contrasted nicely with the lighter brown of her flesh.

For the story to be considered interracial, it has to be included.

 

[cheerful_deviant]

Character Heritage

It probably depends upon where you are going with the story. If you are going to write a one page quicke then I agree with Og, anything nonesential to the plot should be left out.

But if your story goes anything more than a page or two, (Lit pages that is) then I believe some "flesing out" of the characters is needed. It adds an imense ammount of flavor to the story in my opinion.

The down side is that, yes, adding heritage to a character does often times give the reader visions of certain stereotypes. But if your plan is to have your character is to fall into one of these stereotypes anyway then so much the better, the reader already has a rough mental picture of the character in their mind before you add any details.

I personally enjoy a story much more when I have a good metal image of the characters in my mind, especially if it's a character I can identify with. Wether or not the heritage is directly related to the plot, it helps create the character and good characters are esential to any story.

CD

 

[Guest]

Well, Ch., in my e-girl stories which I bet you haven't read yet , and which take place in Tokyo it's very relevant to describe the Japanese men and women, and the whitish main character to contrast as a gaijin (westerner). In my H'ween story, "Ofrenda", the main character is Mexican and it is very relevant re. the theme and plot devices (Day of the Dead and grief). Same for the Russkiis in my chapter of the chain story.

As to mentioning ethnicity or skin colour, it would be annoying for me if nothing was made of it. Chekhov said, "If, in the first chapter, you say there is a gun hanging on the wall, you should make quite sure it is going to be used further on in the story."

Perdita

 

[Weird Harold]

Herein lies a conundrum though: one assumes that there is a stereotype as to what one looks like if they are Spanish, British or Jamaican as oppossed to Mexican, American or Kenyan. One assumes: olive-skinned, white, black.

Stereotypes and cliche CAN be very useful in writing short stories -- both as a shorthand for describing things about characters, color, build, religion, and as a medium for providing a twist to your character by puncturing the stereotypes.

It's not just ethnicity or nationality that implies a stereotype.

For Example, everyone knows that Catholic School Girls are just looking for some hunk to commit a deadly sin with or Blondes and Athletes are dumb.

As long as you're using the stereotypes and cliches and not depending on them, they can be an effective and usful part of you're writing. If you have a reason for assigning a stereotype to a character then don't worry about whether your readers get it -- most of them won't anyway.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

I'm a visual person, so that would enhance the picture for me and give the character a persona.
It also helps if the character is in a different country, then I have an accent to think about in their dialogue.
I don't think of things as being stereotypical, ex. I don't read "the jewish man" and picture a Hassidic Jew.

Let me put it this way, my background is in illustration. which is basically painting a picture that tells a story. If done right, the picture will make you see the story or part of it, you will want to know more of what is going on in the picture.
Just as a writer paints a picture with words. You write descriptives that will create the picture in the mind's eye. You describe surroundings, then place the character in them. It should be interesting to keep the reader wanting to know more and continue on reading.

I don't know if this makes sense or not?
~A~

 

[oggbashan]

I tend to omit descriptions of characters for two reasons:

1. Probably most important - I'm bad at them.
2. If I leave the physical characteristics to the reader's imagination they can fill the blanks with the person of their dreams (which is my rationalisation for reason 1).

Perdita's quote is relevant. If you do include a description there must be a reason for it. If the heroine is tall and willowy she might be a contrast to the other character or an inspiration or... But if 'tall and willowy' isn't used then you may have put off readers who prefer Rubenesque women or any women who aren't 'tall and willowy'.

Og

 

[Uther_Pendragon]

I'd like to go sideways to this discussion.
It seems to me that a common fault in net erotica is to
define the female characters principally by their physical
appearance. Somone said once that you're more likely to
hear from me about the last book that my heroine read than
about her bra size. I took that as a great compliment.
|
Good characters have tics, but also professions or
occupations. I'm tired of reading about high-school and
college students without reading about the courses they take
-- the ones thy're doing well in and the ones they're
having problems in. When I go out of my house during the
day, it's raining, or the sun is shining or it's
threatening rain. That matters. When a character goes
out of the house, he should be in one of those situations.
|
End of rant.

 

[Guest]

http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,1226311,00.html

 

[Boxlicker101]

I'd like to go sideways to this discussion.
It seems to me that a common fault in net erotica is to
define the female characters principally by their physical
appearance. Somone said once that you're more likely to
hear from me about the last book that my heroine read than
about her bra size. I took that as a great compliment.
|
Good characters have tics, but also professions or
occupations. I'm tired of reading about high-school and
college students without reading about the courses they take
-- the ones thy're doing well in and the ones they're
having problems in. When I go out of my house during the
day, it's raining, or the sun is shining or it's
threatening rain. That matters. When a character goes
out of the house, he should be in one of those situations.
|
End of rant.

I have to take some exception to that. I have written stories about six women who are university students. In one, she is a serious student of veterinary medicine and I thought that was relevant so I included that fact, but no further details. In another, we met when I was a guest lecturer in her classroom so the course was relevant. In a third, she is a student of computer technology and I included that. In the other three, the fact that she was a student was relevant but the nature of her studies was not so I did not include any details on it.

I only mention the weather when it is relevant. If the characters are hiking or on a boat, then I mention the weather. If one person goes to another's house and they have sex inside, the weather outside is irrelevant so I don't mention it.

I usually define characters by their attitude toward sex and say why they are indulging in whatever activities are taking place. I usually mention marital status if it is important. I always include some description of the people in the story because I think it is important to the reader to visualize them but I don't usually get into small dertails. I have only mentioned a bra size once and then it was because the story was about a reader who asked me to include it. If I were to write a story about a woman who is a contestant in a beauty contest, I would probably go into considerable detail about her appearance.

If I were being paid by the word, I would probably pad my stories and include extraneous details such as weather or occupations etc., but I am not so i don't.

 

[gauchecritic]

I must just say Box, you're missing out on a lot of useful imagery in ignoring the weather just because it's outside. As a writer that's almost akin to ignoring everyone but the central character simply because the story isn't about everyone else.

Gauche

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

... Chekhov said, "If, in the first chapter, you say there is a gun hanging on the wall, you should make quite sure it is going to be used further on in the story." ...

Ms Perdita,

Is THAT who said it?

I thought it was one of the people in the Writer's List that I used to be in.

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Guest]

Dear Burley,

In the words of the great Patsy Stone, "Don't question me."

Perdita

 

[oggbashan]

Perdita has access to a vast store of knowledge and she knows how to use it.

How many of us can say that?

Og, doffing cake to the Venetian Lady.

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

... In the words of the great Patsy Stone, "Don't question me" ...

I thought she said, “My mother never gave birth... she had something... removed!”

http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/abfab/quotes/images/patsy_cigarette.gif

 

[ABSTRUSE]

I thought she said, “My mother never gave birth... she had something... removed!”

http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/abfab/quotes/images/patsy_cigarette.gif

Girls, girls, just crack open some Bolly and light up, I need a slash.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I must just say Box, you're missing out on a lot of useful imagery in ignoring the weather just because it's outside. As a writer that's almost akin to ignoring everyone but the central character simply because the story isn't about everyone else.

Gauche

I don't ignore the weather if it is relevant to the story or if it can help provide atmosphere. Most of my stories are about two people and what they do in bed. If the weather is not relevant to the story, I do ignore it.

My favorite feedback or PC would be something like this: "I started to read your story about Susan and by the end of the third paragraph, I had to start frigging myself. I came at the same time as she did. It was great. Keep the stories coming."

In this case, the story would start out with Susan calling the narrator (N) and inviting him over. "N drove over to Susan's apartment and rang the doorbell. When she saw it was me, she let me in the door and quickly locked it behind me." I could include thousands of words describing the weather and the traffic conditions and airplanes flying overhead and birds singing and tall buildings along the way, etc., but nobody is interested in reading about all that crap so I don't include it.

If the action is taking place outside, such as sailing or on a hike or picnic or on the beach or other place, the weather is relevant and I describe it, although only briefly. If N is driving and Susan is sucking his cock I will mention the traffic because it would be relevant but otherwise not. I believe that some descrption of the persons involved is always relevant so I always include it.

 

[gauchecritic]

And so I say again that you are missing out on a lot of imagery that could be used as a tension building device.

"N drove over to Susan's apartment and rang the doorbell."

Knowing how badly she needed me, I forgot about the car completely and ran 6 blocks in the driving rain, plastering my silk shirt so closely to my skin, I must have looked as though I was naked from the waiste up, which is exactly how I felt. Rivulets of water patterning my torso and making a close fitting cap of my hair.

When she saw it was me, she let me in the door and quickly locked it behind me."

Spying me through lens in the door, she didn't even wait for me to knock as I stood doubled over breathing hard, dripping cascades of want and wet, from my shoulders, hair and nose.
She dragged me in, bedraggled, and quickly locked the door behind me.


Hard work maybe, but it sure builds and presents a whole picture. And it really doesn't matter if they want to read it or not. Make them read it.

Gauche

 

[minsue]

I stood doubled over breathing hard, dripping cascades of want and wet, from my shoulders, hair and nose.

Damn. That's good.

 

[Guest]

Make them read it.

Gauche, That made my pulse quicken. Good in prose, good in bed?

Perdita