Does Pornography Really Compare to Your Stories?

[KittyOfSteele]

I guess we're defining porn as mainstream porn that people watch on the Internet. Well, I do have a very strange relationship with it.

Throughout my life since I got in contact with it I developed a few periods of addiction to pornography. Granted, I don't see it as the pure evil that so many people do in those "no fap" and "no porn" communities online do, so I always reconcile with it. I mean I've done porn before; I was a cam girl during the pandemic, and it was an experience that helped me to heal very old wounds that I had about my self-perception, wounds that hurt deeper after transitioning because I got them long before the egg cracked*. Oddly enough, porn was part of the process of the egg cracking too. It wasn't until months after finishing my first novel that the egg finally cracked, and that novel had a total of one sex scene. That was years before I considered writing erotica.

So, do I consume porn? I attempt to do so in a more mindful way, and reading this thread made me realize that I've probably not been doing that lately.

Now, as for my erotica, I don't mind if it is "pornographic" because I do like the adjective. Even my most personal stories, the stories that heal me, the stories that come from traumatic events, the stories that are all about soul-searching, the stories that are pages from my journal, the stories that are my rage against society, the stories in which my pyrrhonic and anarchistic ways go on top of the hedonistic ways from my libertinism... I want them all to be "pornographic." Do people consider it "pornographic"? Are they "pornographic"? They do? They are? Well good for me. "Pornographer" is not really an insult for me when my teaching of erotica comes from individuals who sparked revolutions with it. In fact, I like that word.

So yeah, I will not "drink" with you today.

* This is Reddit slang for "realizing you're trans" for those who don't know.

 

[madelinemasoch]

A lot of people in AH would say what we write in literotica is porn. I like to make a distinction between stories where care is given to the writing, no mattere how explicit the story. I reject the notion that all stories that don't depend on plot or character are "stroke stories." Just curious about how you define "porn?"

I would say (in response to other comments here as well) that what I write is decidedly not porn. I don't write about sex (even though there are sexual elements) and I don't even write about women (even though they're the main characters in my stories). That would be reductive. I write about concepts and themes. If a character gets, you know, violence imposed upon her and then changes her sex life as a result, that's more interesting to me than a character having a ravishment fetish and playing out a fantasy. When I finally get my new stuff out there I think you'll see what I mean and how I'm using the word "themes" as well.

When my ideas come, they come with emotions attached that are something more than just arousal, they come with a mood and a vibe included that offers me a new way of looking at the use of certain language, they come with beautiful characters yes but also something about the characters that either makes me want to write it more or makes me think the idea isn't coming from the right place. I don't take ideas that are purely based on my own or anyone else's sex fantasies anymore. It has to be based on an underlying aesthetic first and foremost or else it's not interesting. I find myself frustrated by the ideas which aren't as deep and I'll probably throw them away if a transformative element and message to put into the story doesn't come out of them. The one I'm working on right now for example is primarily just about contrast between negativity and creativity. The characters are symbols and what they do has to be symbolic to the overall contrasting theme or else I'm going to end up cutting it in revisions. I knew that going in. However the interesting part of that is if you're reading it primarily for the sexual content in either a negative or positive way you're probably going to miss the fact that it's actually about that.

As an artist I'm trying to explore deeper aspects of reality. Porn is a terrible medium for this exploration but sexual content is a rich and lucrative subject matter for it. I think it's a matter of how the thing is handled in its execution and construction that makes the difference. I'm simultaneously saying I don't like porn but I love eroticism. It can be libidinally charged without being pornographic and reductive. I don't write primarily for sexual purposes even though the content is sexual. I think if you can check both boxes of both transformative themes and erotic beauty then you're doing a good job.

 

[madelinemasoch]

I guess we're defining porn as mainstream porn that people watch on the Internet. Well, I do have a very strange relationship with it.

Throughout my life since I got in contact with it I developed a few periods of addiction to pornography. Granted, I don't see it as the pure evil that so many people do in those "no fap" and "no porn" communities online do, so I always reconcile with it. I mean I've done porn before; I was a cam girl during the pandemic, and it was an experience that helped me to heal very old wounds that I had about my self-perception, wounds that hurt deeper after transitioning because I got them long before the egg cracked*. Oddly enough, porn was part of the process of the egg cracking too. It wasn't until months after finishing my first novel that the egg finally cracked, and that novel had a total of one sex scene. That was years before I considered writing erotica.

So, do I consume porn? I attempt to do so in a more mindful way, and reading this thread made me realize that I've probably not been doing that lately.

Now, as for my erotica, I don't mind if it is "pornographic" because I do like the adjective. Even my most personal stories, the stories that heal me, the stories that come from traumatic events, the stories that are all about soul-searching, the stories that are pages from my journal, the stories that are my rage against society, the stories in which my pyrrhonic and anarchistic ways go on top of the hedonistic ways from my libertinism... I want them all to be "pornographic." Do people consider it "pornographic"? Are they "pornographic"? They do? They are? Well good for me. "Pornographer" is not really an insult for me when my teaching of erotica comes from individuals who sparked revolutions with it. In fact, I like that word.

So yeah, I will not "drink" with you today.

* This is Reddit slang for "realizing you're trans" for those who don't know.

I guess I just don't think that pornography is authentically transgressive anymore in my country. I live in America. We practice and consume a lot of pornography as a society. We have an industry of convincing people they're addicts for it, and we have porn that both submits itself to this framing and encourages said "addiction." There are literally people who get off on "worsening themselves" for the porn itself. Pure pornography and no sex. Not to mention the fact that most modern entertainment is pornographic in form if not in content because it's based primarily upon eliciting and manipulating the audience's emotions and nothing deeper than that. It's just pleasure, pleasure, pleasure when nothing is actually pleasurable about the thing.

This is all very shallow to me. I find if we're still thinking pornography is transgressive in America we've fallen into some kind of bad dialectical trap in our thinking. I think the same thing about being LGBT. It isn't inherently transgressive and it isn't inherently wrong, either. It depends on how it's done. These things are institutionalized in the west now. They had pride flags on cop cars and banks the last few years in June. That isn't very rebellious.

To be creative is more transgressive than that. To truly be creative meaning to imbue into the world a new meaning, to draw out different symbols and archetypes from the depths of the collective unconscious, to change things for the better as in to offer a positive vision. I have a lucrative wellspring of creative energy inside myself and I think all human beings have that potential buried within. You have to be able to see things from varying perspectives.

Let's be more specific: I see conflicts in modern western society. Conflicts on a deep level, conflicts between principles, conflicts between social arrangements, conflicts between energies. Restriction vs expansion of consciousness. Negativity and suffering vs creativity and love. Masculine sadistic brutality vs feminine sexual power. To take a side in this conflict for the better and ground yourself in that with clarity is the framework from which one can be authentically transgressive today. It isn't about sex. That comes after you've figured out where you are.

 

[Voboy]

Porn never "works well" for me.

Stories always do.

 

[AG31]

Is it porn or erotica? is not a meaningful question. All it tells you is how each respondent defines each word. Who cares?

It's critically meaningful to understanding another person's intentions when they use the word.

 

[lovecraft68]

When this type of topic comes up, I'm always amused at how many people want to dress up what they do.

We write PORN we write SMUT. We write SEX STORIES.

Literotica is a porn site.

Even if the story has some substance to it, people come here mainly for sex which even those stories have.

Years back we had a group of snobs who touted their "Literary erotica" and how much better they were than the rest of us here, and were going to take the selling market by storm

15 of them at their peak. There's one left here that pops up in the AH from time to time and they were booted for not ass kissing the founder. Only one of them still puts anything out in the market.

Point? Pride cometh before the fall.

I'm happy to refer to myself as a smut writer even if some of it is more story based, its what it is.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

When this type of topic comes up, I'm always amused at how many people want to dress up what they do.

We write PORN we write SMUT. We write SEX STORIES.

Literotica is a porn site.

Even if the story has some substance to it, people come here mainly for sex which even those stories have.

Years back we had a group of snobs who touted their "Literary erotica" and how much better they were than the rest of us here, and were going to take the selling market by storm

15 of them at their peak. There's one left here that pops up in the AH from time to time and they were booted for not ass kissing the founder. Only one of them still puts anything out in the market.

Point? Pride cometh before the fall.

I'm happy to refer to myself as a smut writer even if some of it is more story based, its what it is.

I don't even understand why people think erotica automatically signifies depth of writing or something along those lines. Maybe I have it wrong but I've always thought that the difference is only in the explicitness of sex?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong about this, but how can that be the measure of story quality?

I like things explicit so I guess I like porn, but I also like a good plot in a story and fleshed-out characters. Is there some specific name for that?

 

[madelinemasoch]

I don't even understand why people think erotica automatically signifies depth of writing or something along those lines. Maybe I have it wrong but I've always thought that the difference is only in the explicitness of sex?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong about this, but how can that be the measure of story quality?

I like things explicit so I guess I like porn, but I also like a good plot in a story and fleshed-out characters. Is there some specific name for that?

I don’t think that erotica means less explicit sexual content than porn. I think that’s another illusion.

 

[lovecraft68]

I don't even understand why people think erotica automatically signifies depth of writing or something along those lines. Maybe I have it wrong but I've always thought that the difference is only in the explicitness of sex?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong about this, but how can that be the measure of story quality?

I like things explicit so I guess I like porn, but I also like a good plot in a story and fleshed-out characters. Is there some specific name for that?

I view erotica as just the name of the genre. Like any genre it has sub genres. You can like horror, but not all types of horror, same for Sci Fi, romance or anything else.

We have flat out stroke stories that are the written equivalent of a short porn clip with nothing involved other than hey, let's fuck and it happens. We also have stories that are actual stories, but there is still detailed sex scenes written in those stories. These are not Harlequins where they are try to color of the explicit parts with flowery prose and loose descriptions. In these stories women are sucking cock, not "pleasuring" you get what I mean.

Most stories here regardless of how much or little story there is feature explicit sex scenes and all manner of genres, fetishes and kinks.

There's nothing wrong with saying you write or read porn which erotica is a fancier term for.

It reminds me of how my wife used to teach people how to write resumes

"What do you do?"

"I sweep up, I clean, I...."

Wife "You facilitate the removal of waste and debris from one location to...."

I think I'll just be blunt and say there's some people here who have a certain level of snobbery about their work or maybe its they're too ashamed to use the term porn.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I don’t think that erotica means less explicit sexual content than porn. I think that’s another illusion.

Well, all right, but what is the difference then?

 

[madelinemasoch]

Well, all right, but what is the difference then?

I think it’s related to whether or not porn is an art form. I think the difference has to do with artistic aspects of the things. Erotica is definitely an art form, but is porn?

 

[GuiltyCowboy]

Did writing erotica ruin porn for you? Maybe this is just a part of getting older.

That’s an interesting question. I’m v new to erotica and this website in particular - so my feelings may well evolve - but my main initial reason for writing was to write scenes that I wasn’t really seeing in porn. Since I’ve started writing, I find my interest in watching porn has dropped off a cliff.

And I think that’s probably a positive development, all things considered.

It may also be a sign of maturity, or just the effect of years of watching fairly unimpressive porn.

A PS to this is, all that said, what I’m interested in writing is very clearly inspired by the porn I first encountered. I can’t imagine I’d have developed a taste for that stuff if I hadn’t encountered it in porn in the first place.

If I was trying to be really fancy, I’d say writing erotica has ruined the porn of today for me but not the porn I first watched.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I think it’s related to whether or not porn is an art form. I think the difference has to do with artistic aspects of the things. Erotica is definitely an art form, but is porn?

@madelinemasoch


I searched the net a bit, trying to find some wisdom about the topic. I've seen different opinions and definitions but I think this one sums it up nicely.

Some time ago I was asked to define the difference between erotica and pornography. An author was struggling to write one while avoiding the other.



It’s a subject charged with misunderstanding and misinformation. It’s also highly subjective. But it might be worth exploring it as it also may prove quite revealing (if you’ll pardon the inference) about a number of central matters relating to writing.



Contrary to some expectations, the difference doesn’t break down easily across educational lines — in other words, it’s not that educated people prefer erotica and uneducated people go for porn. I’ve known extremely intelligent, well-schooled people with a passion for pornography, and totally unschooled, low IQ people who prefer erotica. Perhaps more interestingly, when the subject comes up (which isn’t often), many people of all types like both at different times— and that gives us our first clue.

The bottom line is, there is no consensus on the topic, nor is there a true definition of either of the two.
We can be poetic here though, and claim that both erotica and porn are what we make of them. Erotica can be shallow and porn can be deep (yeah, I know. Bring the puns).
In my opinion, the only true difference is that erotica is the kind of sexuality people are willing to admit to publicly, whilst few will admit to being interested in porn. That, along with the fact that most of the porn really is simplistic is what makes the difference.

Anyway, I think I'll stick to my definition that porn is more explicit, more carnal and physical, while erotica is probably more emotional. But either can be artful and deep, and either can be shallow.

EDIT: I had to edit the post because I fucked up the quotes bigtime.

 

[KittyOfSteele]

@madelinemasoch I would like to reply to you, but I'm afraid I'm going way too Politics Board on it. I'll just sum it up in this:

Addiction is not a disease caused by a substance issue. Addiction should not be blamed on the substance. Addiction is an unhealthy coping mechanism that went awry. Addiction is a symptom of underlying issues that are affecting quality of life. Things like depression, anxiety, abuse, trauma, heartbreak... they all can lead to addiction. The substance is just the way the addiction manifests itself.

I don't see it as the pure evil that so many people do in those "no fap" and "no porn" communities online do...

You don't need to give me the spiel on an industry capitalizing on convincing people they are addicted to something. I am completely aware they exist.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

All of that said: my feelings about porn as an arm of the film industry are certainly a lot different now than they were a decade ago. I embarked on a writing gig for Nubiles.com, recruited from this very site, some years ago, and it was illuminating in how much that industry actually stifles creativity and utterly fails to protect its performers to whatever degree you might assume is happening. I would never again write for or work with an actual porn film producer for exactly those reasons. It was eye-opening and fucking gross.

(EDIT: And if you feel like your stories are doing better than what comes out of people who literally can't process an actual screenplay, there's a pretty good chance you're correct.)

If it isn't prying, what did you get recruited to do?

 

[Voboy]

When this type of topic comes up, I'm always amused at how many people want to dress up what they do.

We write PORN we write SMUT. We write SEX STORIES.

Literotica is a porn site.

Even if the story has some substance to it, people come here mainly for sex which even those stories have.

Years back we had a group of snobs who touted their "Literary erotica" and how much better they were than the rest of us here, and were going to take the selling market by storm

15 of them at their peak. There's one left here that pops up in the AH from time to time and they were booted for not ass kissing the founder. Only one of them still puts anything out in the market.

Point? Pride cometh before the fall.

I'm happy to refer to myself as a smut writer even if some of it is more story based, its what it is.

I thought it was apparent that @madelinemasoch was mostly differentiating between visual, filmed erotic content, and written erotic content. That's how I interpreted it, anyway.

Everything else is just a label.

 

[lovecraft68]

I thought it was apparent that @madelinemasoch was mostly differentiating between visual, filmed erotic content, and written erotic content. That's how I interpreted it, anyway.

Everything else is just a label.

They were in the OP but as always, the conversation shifted somewhat.

 

[Voboy]

They were in the OP but as always, the conversation shifted somewhat.

Okay. Cool.

I write smut, crap, swill, porn, or stories; whatever the reader wants to think of them as.

I usually call it "smut." "Porn," to me, means filmed. On a philosophical level I don't really discriminate: the goal of both is to entertain and titillate. I'm not precious about what I write here. I'm just happy people seem to like it.

 

[lovecraft68]

Okay. Cool.

I write smut, crap, swill, porn, or stories; whatever the reader wants to think of them as.

I usually call it "smut." "Porn," to me, means filmed. On a philosophical level I don't really discriminate: the goal of both is to entertain and titillate. I'm not precious about what I write here. I'm just happy people seem to like it.

I call it smut and my catch phrase in various places is "My smut has depth!"

There's an old comment somewhere on one of my stories that say my stories are the written version of fecal matter.

 

[madelinemasoch]

@madelinemasoch I would like to reply to you, but I'm afraid I'm going way too Politics Board on it. I'll just sum it up in this:

Addiction is not a disease caused by a substance issue. Addiction should not be blamed on the substance. Addiction is an unhealthy coping mechanism that went awry. Addiction is a symptom of underlying issues that are affecting quality of life. Things like depression, anxiety, abuse, trauma, heartbreak... they all can lead to addiction. The substance is just the way the addiction manifests itself.



You don't need to give me the spiel on an industry capitalizing on convincing people they are addicted to something. I am completely aware they exist.

I didn't give you a whole spiel, I gave you one sentence about that part.

 

[lovecraft68]

@madelinemasoch I would like to reply to you, but I'm afraid I'm going way too Politics Board on it. I'll just sum it up in this:

Addiction is not a disease caused by a substance issue. Addiction should not be blamed on the substance. Addiction is an unhealthy coping mechanism that went awry. Addiction is a symptom of underlying issues that are affecting quality of life. Things like depression, anxiety, abuse, trauma, heartbreak... they all can lead to addiction. The substance is just the way the addiction manifests itself.

Why would this go to the PB? Or has addiction been politicized as well?

Anyhow, I don't quite agree with your take. You're not totally wrong for some people, but some people are also hardwired that way to begin with. Addiction is a trait some are susceptible to more than others. Cheating is a trait for example and many will roll their eyes at that comparison, but its true. Not everyone is a cheat and then others can't help themselves. You used the term coping, there is also compulsion. Addiction does not always have to be a substance either but certain behavior as well.

 

[GuiltyCowboy]

I think it’s related to whether or not porn is an art form. I think the difference has to do with artistic aspects of the things. Erotica is definitely an art form, but is porn?

The origins of the two words hint at an important distinction: pornography comes from the depiction of prostitutes (and slaves bought and sold to be used as prostitutes) while erotica comes from the depiction of sexual love.

Porn comes from sex that is bought. Erotica comes from amorous sex.

That differentiation works for me.

 

[Bramblethorn]

The difference between urban graffiti and the Sistine chapel.

Which is the one where the guy hits the ceiling?

 

[madelinemasoch]

The origins of the two words hint at an important distinction: pornography comes from the depiction of prostitutes (and slaves bought and sold to be used as prostitutes) while erotica comes from the depiction of sexual love.

Porn comes from sex that is bought. Erotica comes from amorous sex.

That differentiation works for me.

I actually think that’s a good point.

 

[KittyOfSteele]

Why would this go to the PB? Or has addiction been politicized as well?

Anyhow, I don't quite agree with your take. You're not totally wrong for some people, but some people are also hardwired that way to begin with. Addiction is a trait some are susceptible to more than others. Cheating is a trait for example and many will roll their eyes at that comparison, but its true. Not everyone is a cheat and then others can't help themselves. You used the term coping, there is also compulsion. Addiction does not always have to be a substance either but certain behavior as well.

Actually, you're saying stuff I ommitted in the first place because I went the quick route, so that's on me. Addiction being a trait that some are more susceptible to others is something that I, and anyone else with ADHD, knows because of how ADHD increases the risk of developing an addiction.

To answer your question: my original message would go on the PB because I went on a rant about how much I hate dychotomies and I will always refuse a call to pick a side. To quote Kahlil Gibran: "I am not a politician, and I would not be a politician."