End Of Days?

[dr_mabeuse]

Re: Dr. M's discussion of the first five books of the Old Testament

It is my recollection from a biblical history course I took in college that sometime in Jewish history (don't know when but maybe 300-200 BC may be an approximate time) there was a conference of Hebrew scholars whose intent was to sift through all of the 'sacred' texts and come up with a final version of 'the word'. There were many texts floating around at the time and they needed to be edited and reconciled with each other.

It is my understanding that at the end of the day there were certain stories that couldn't be agreed on so they left several versions in there. Dr M talks of 2 stories of genesis, but my college professor told us that there are actually 4 genesis stories in the 5 books of Moses. (At least that's the number I remember.)

His story was, they argued and argued and then agreed to disagree.

Isn't it odd that a book that was the result of a committee is the acknowledged Word of God? (Heinlein: An elephant is a mouse designed by a committee... okay, he also said, an elephant is a mouse according to government specifications, but I digress.)

As I understand it - and I'm not claiming to be a biblical scholar, just relating what I recall from my college days - the New Testament had a similar origin. Some North African Bishop decided which of the many texts that were floating around were sacred and which were heretical. Mostly he made those decisions as a means of consolidating his own power in the church.

But the result was the Holy Scripture.

I think the bunch of scholars you refer to were the 70 Jewish scholars who produced the "Septuagint", the cannonized form of the Old Testament written in Greek, the basis of our bible. They did indeed argue and fight over what books to include and what to leave out, and the books they excluded are today known as the Apocrypha. They're pretty interesting reading.

I don;t know about 4 versions of Genesis. I think your prof might have said that the OT had four different authors, which is the generally accepted view now. There was J, who wrote in Judah and referred to God as "Yahweh"; E, who wrote from Israel and referred to God as "Elohim"; the "priestly" author P, who I already mentioned; and D, the "Deuteronomist," who wrote that book and most of the rest of the pentateuch.

The book of Genesis was redacted sometime after the Jews returned from the Babylonian Captivity in ~570 BC or whatever it was. They were trying to recreate the state of Israel, and needed some propaganda documents to serve their sense of nationalism.

So the books of the pentateuch ("The five books of Moses") were written some time around 570 BC, and then the books were collected into our version of the OT around 300 BC when the Septuagint was assembled.

 

[Couture]

The second coming will happen like "A thief in the night" it's unpredictable. I do see the signs,and call me niave, blinded, stupid or whatever, I'll still see them as signs

Theres other things that haven't come true yet either, the worrd of Christ has to reach every tribe and nation of the world and though it's a while since I last heard anything on the worldwide status of missionary work, last I heard we were nowhere near that aim.

We can't predict the future, no one can. People have been seeing the sign of the End of Days since Jesus died. I guess it's just a longing we Christians have to see our Lord come again in all his glory. I guess it's a human, selfish thing really.

He'll turn up on His own time when he so dictates it

You know that story about King Soloman having the mothers decide to cut their baby in half? Might give that LeHain guy a moment's pause, one would think.

Why don't you just wait a few years and you'll be dead'nrn hell anyway. Then you can meet him in person. I just wish you Christians keep your raptures to yourself and leave my world alone.

 

[cloudy]

You know that story about King Soloman having the mothers decide to cut their baby in half? Might give that LeHain guy a moment's pause, one would think.

Why don't you just wait a few years and you'll be dead'nrn hell anyway. Then you can meet him in person. I just wish you Christians keep your raptures to yourself and leave my world alone.

Were you always such an ass? Or do you have to practice?

 

[Couture]

Were you always such an ass? Or do you have to practice?

It's an effort sometimes. But seriously, the whole religion thing has gotten a big free pass on the subject of debate. Anyone mentions the subject, and gets a big ol' Easy Button like on the Office Depot commercials. No taxes for Churches. No Gov't intervention.

But now we have religious churches taking over government jobs. We have default prejudicial hiring practices using tax money. We have religious encroachment into public schools. First a 'moment of silence' and now into superstition into science courses. Hell the moonies! People laugh when they think of them selling paper flowers and candles, but the fucking moonies have ties to the president of the United States.

Hell, I listened to some news guy on the Christain Broadcast Network last year and he was going on about the signs of the end of the world. Even had an end of the world-o-meter. And get this....they are taking donations to bring it about.

Now, to me, this is silly business, I'm thinking as I'm watching this guy rave. Why doesn't he just drink the kool-aid like Jim Jones, then he can go meet Jesus in person?

It seems to me that this whole rapture business isn't very Christian at all. It's much more old testament, we get paradise, while the rest of you assholes get punished and eternal damnation. (And I'm the asshole?) My worry isn't so much the rapture, but the wars and loss of life these crazies are promoting in real life, is deleterious to my way of life in the hear and now.

 

[Dar~]

You know that story about King Soloman having the mothers decide to cut their baby in half? Might give that LeHain guy a moment's pause, one would think.

Why don't you just wait a few years and you'll be dead'nrn hell anyway. Then you can meet him in person. I just wish you Christians keep your raptures to yourself and leave my world alone.

I just wish all you agressive athiests would leave my religious beliefs alone. She wasn't asking you to cross over, she is just answering the question I asked.

 

[cloudy]

It's an effort sometimes. But seriously, the whole religion thing has gotten a big free pass on the subject of debate. Anyone mentions the subject, and gets a big ol' Easy Button like on the Office Depot commercials. No taxes for Churches. No Gov't intervention.

But now we have religious churches taking over government jobs. We have default prejudicial hiring practices using tax money. We have religious encroachment into public schools. First a 'moment of silence' and now into superstition into science courses. Hell the moonies! People laugh when they think of them selling paper flowers and candles, but the fucking moonies have ties to the president of the United States.

Hell, I listened to some news guy on the Christain Broadcast Network last year and he was going on about the signs of the end of the world. Even had an end of the world-o-meter. And get this....they are taking donations to bring it about.

Now, to me, this is silly business, I'm thinking as I'm watching this guy rave. Why doesn't he just drink the kool-aid like Jim Jones, then he can go meet Jesus in person?

It seems to me that this whole rapture business isn't very Christian at all. It's much more old testament, we get paradise, while the rest of you assholes get punished and eternal damnation. (And I'm the asshole?) My worry isn't so much the rapture, but the wars and loss of life these crazies are promoting in real life, is deleterious to my way of life in the hear and now.

And attacking EL seems like the way to go about things? It was uncalled for, at the very least.

 

[Couture]

And attacking EL seems like the way to go about things? It was uncalled for, at the very least.

Couldn't help it...devil made me do it.

 

[Dar~]

Couldn't help it...devil made me do it.

Yeah whatever. You have been exceedingly rude a lot lately. Why do you feel the need to make non personal things personal. I asked a question, it was answered. your response was rude and uncalled for.

 

[Couture]

Yeah whatever. You have been exceedingly rude a lot lately. Why do you feel the need to make non personal things personal. I asked a question, it was answered. your response was rude and uncalled for.

You don't think they had gay people back in the good old days? And now, all of a sudden, we have gay people marrying, and the end of the world is nigh? On one hand, you guys preach for the rapture, on the other, you want to discriminate against gay people.

 

[Dar~]

You don't think they had gay people back in the good old days? And now, all of a sudden, we have gay people marrying, and the end of the world is nigh? On one hand, you guys preach for the rapture, on the other, you want to discriminate against gay people.

I am bi-sexual. "you people?" WTF. This thread isn't about if this is the end times, just what people think about the end times in general.

When have I or anyone else on this board ever discriminated against a homosexual? Ever? Not all christians are haters and the "christians" who are haters aren't really practicing the teachings of christianity.

"you people" You make us sound like another species.

 

[Couture]

Our Twenty-first Century world has embraced moral relativism, tainting even the church. For example, many denominations are having a hard time defining marriage as being between one man and one woman, and many religious leaders today are openly supporting homosexuality. The Bible has become subordinate to the modern church’s quest for a more appealing “truth.” These are indeed “perilous times” spiritually.

I personally do not feel that gay marriage is going to bring about the end of the world. I also don't believe in traditional marriage, ie woman is the property of the man.

 

[Liar]

I'm sure I'll get roasted alive by the christians, but there's tons of similarities between the Muslim prophet (I'm blanking, right now), and Jesus Christ: the twelve disciples, etc.

Mohammed?

Maybe. But that's probably because they were both,well, prophets, and both worked and lived as such. So there ought to be lots of similarities when it coems to storytelling symmetry around them.

The Muslim faith and stories (I can't remmeber if it's in the Koran or elsewhere) quite clearly contradicts them being one and the same. Islam acknowledges Jesus as an actual important person, and also as one of the great prophets, with impact on the Islam way of life too. He is not the Big Guy, but he is in fact a Big Guy.

I think that would look good on a t-shirt. "Muslims dig Jesus too".

 

[cloudy]

You don't think they had gay people back in the good old days? And now, all of a sudden, we have gay people marrying, and the end of the world is nigh? On one hand, you guys preach for the rapture, on the other, you want to discriminate against gay people.

Which "you people" are you talking about, specifically? I don't think anything was said about anything like that.

You need to go to your happy place, really bad.

Liar: I agree.

 

[Dar~]

I wanted people to discuss that article. I wasn't claiming to believe what it said. Man, iggy buttons sure come in handy.

 

[cloudy]

I wanted people to discuss that article. I wasn't claiming to believe what it said. Man, iggy buttons sure come in handy.

eh - she's been in rude bitch mode for weeks now. Water off a duck.

 

[Dar~]

eh - she's been in rude bitch mode for weeks now. Water off a duck.

so should I do iggy or give her another chance? I used to think she was cool.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Off the top of my head:

The new testament was mostly a result of the Nicean (sp?) conference held by Constantine, I believe.

(Google the "council of Nicea" and you'll get tons of info on it)

The Council of Nicea is something of an obsession of mine, and I've been researching it. Thinking of writing a fictionalized account of it.

I don't know if they did any bible-making there. The Council was really held to settle the problem of Christ's divine nature. The followers of Arius belived that Christ was a flesh-and-blood man who was divine, who didn't exist until he was born. The majority view was that Christ was of the same substance as God and had always existed, even before he was born to this earth.

It may sound like angels dancing on the head of a pin (and Constantine thought it was. He thought the whole thing was silly) but it had serious implications for Christianity and the nature of the Trinity, which was a very hot issue back then (453 AD).

If Arius was right and Christ was born human and divine, then the Trinity wasn't eternal. On the other hand, if Christ was of the same substance as God, then could he really be said to suffer as a man on earth, and how could he be said to have sacrificed himself when all that happened was he went back up to heaven?

The Council came down on the majority view, holding that the Trinity was eternal, and the idea was enshrined in the Nicean Creed, which states the fundamental truths that Christians have accepted ever since. Arius and his followers were excommunicated, but his heresy kept on popping up through the centuries as Christians tried to make Christ more human.

As for where the New Testament came from, I'm not sure. I know that there are a whole bunch of alternate gospels and apocryphal material that were left out though. I think St Jerome had something to do with it.

 

[Couture]

I wanted people to discuss that article. I wasn't claiming to believe what it said. Man, iggy buttons sure come in handy.

Maybe I jumped overboard. A little sensitive right now with the news and all. The war - and now Katrina on the news, maybe I do need to go to a happy place. If Jesus came down and took all the helpless people from New Orleans up and gave them a helping hand, you'd have a happy convert in me. Matter of fact, I would be the best convert ever.

 

[gauchecritic]

I used to think she was cool.

I'll bet she uses that in her sig.

 

[mismused]

delete

 

[Dar~]

I'll bet she uses that in her sig.

Hey, I used to think you were cool too. Now I know.

 

[CharleyH]

I don't think it's especially surprising that people everywhere think there'll be storms and disasters before the world ends. What would you expect? Picnic weather?

The fact is, we've been waiting for the end of the world for 2005 years (if you're a Christian, longer if you're some other religions) and it hasn't happened yet, and it's not going to happen.

I've read Nostradamus too, and they only way he makes sense is in hindsight, when "The Prince will visit the Golden City" can mean anything you want it to mean: Bush in Jerusalem or Will Smith in Beverly Hills.

I agree. LOL, great post. I sw other posts and your on Jung in a glance .... reading.

 

[mismused]

delete

 

[CharleyH]

You want to read Jung or Joseph Campbell then about the common threads that run through all myths and religions. Jung believed that some of those themes are hard-wired into our brains. Campbell traced the same themes all up and down the world's different cultures. From Rome to the steppes of Asia to the South American rain forests, the same themes appear again and again.

One of them is the Golden Age that man used to live in. Another is the end of the world. Still another is the Dying God, whose resurrection redeems his followers and promises them eternal life. Christ wasn't the first and he wasn't the last. Wherever people farm, you find the idea of the Dying God. The theme comes from the agricultural cycle and the resurrection of life in the spring,

Yeah, it is cool stuff. I just notice that, whenever these apocalyptics quote scripture about there being false prophets in the end times, they never consider that they may be the ones. It's always the other guy.

I agree, but while you talk about agricultural societies, or look upon nature, you forget the theories of culture, and the man-made. How do you think they factor in? Are they as cyclical since all man-made things are linear ... with beginning and end?

As for the other guy? Blame is always located everywhere else. As Kafka answered in a short story to the question, "Where are you going?" The answer was "Away from here. always away from here.."

It has a multitude of meanings.

 

[CharleyH]

Numerology was very big at the time, in terms of symbology, and 666 was the sign of the Beast - and also the numerologic equivalent to Nero's name.

Because it is? I think revelations specifically says it is not, Nero.