End Of Days?

[Lauren Hynde]

Because it is? I think revelations specifically says it is not, Nero.

No, Revelations doesn't specifically say much of anything. It is all symbolic.

In relation specifically to the number:

In May 2005 it was reported that scholars at Oxford University using advanced imaging techniques had been able to read previously illegible portions of an early (third century) version of the Book of Revelation, part of its Oxyrhynchus collection of papyri. The fragment gives the Number of the Beast as 616. Scholars now believe the number in question has very little to do with the devil. It was actually a complicated numerical riddle in Greek, meant to represent someone's name. "It's a number puzzle -- the majority opinion seems to be that it refers to [the Roman emperor] Nero."

[...] scholars who believe the Book of Revelation refers to real people and events argue that the number represents the value of Nero or Neron Caesar (נרון קסר, Nrwn Qsr*) in Hebrew letters, which also have numerical values (note that Hebrew is written from right to left):

----------------r----S----q-----n---w----r----n
--------666 = 200 + 60 + 100 + 50 + 6 + 200 + 50

As noted above, some early texts of the Book of Revelation use 616 instead, which would represent the alternative Hebrew spelling נרו קסר, Nrw Qsr (based on the Latin form "Nero Caesar"):

----------------r----S----q----w----r----n
--------616 = 200 + 60 + 100 + 6 + 200 + 50​

 

[CharleyH]

No, Revelations doesn't specifically say much of anything. It is all symbolic.

So is the rest of the bible.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

So is the rest of the bible.

Obviously. I don't think many people would dispute that.

 

[CharleyH]

No, Revelations doesn't specifically say much of anything. It is all symbolic.

In relation specifically to the number:

The fragment gives the Number of the Beast as 616. Scholars now believe the number in question has very little to do with the devil.

As for the devil? Wasn't he just created by the church to keep people at bay? If such a beautiful being was cast from heaven for what, exactly? Rebelliousness? You must see the myth in it?

The church had much power. I doubt any of us are even, to this day, privy to the docs they have. Why do so many people not question? In fact, is that not the thrust of the story of Jesus? To question authority? To question men?

Jesus and Lucifer are not so different.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

As for the devil? Wasn't he just created by the church to keep people at bay? If such a beautiful being was cast from heaven for what, exactly? Rebelliousness? You must see the myth in it?

The church had much power. I doubt any of us are even, to this day, privy to the docs they have. Why do so many people not question? In fact, is that not the thrust of the story of Jesus? To question authority? To question men?

Jesus and Lucifer are not so different.

You make good points. Things are not that linear, but they're still good points. Lucifer is the bringer of light.

 

[CharleyH]

You make good points. Things are not that linear, but they're still good points. Lucifer is the bringer of light.

and is not Jesus the bringer of light?

 

[Lauren Hynde]

and is not Jesus the bringer of light?

That's why I mentioned it...

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Because it is? I think revelations specifically says it is not, Nero.

The Beast 666 refers to Jerry Lewis.

 

[CharleyH]

That's why I mentioned it...

I have never pretended to like cut and dry Why not go on, Lauren? Are Jesus and Lucifer one and the same, like Adam and Lilith, before Eve? Did God make a mistake? And then tried again?

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I have never pretended to like cut and dry Why not go on, Lauren? Are Jesus and Lucifer one and the same, like Adam and Lilith, before Eve? Did God make a mistake? And then tried again?

No, even if I took the myth literally - I may or may not, it doesn't matter - I don't believe God made a mistake; it was all part of the plan. Lucifer was God's favourite, and took a dive because he had to. The ultimate sacrifice. Just like Jesus.

 

[CharleyH]

The Beast 666 refers to Jerry Lewis.

I am certain the French auteurs do not think so! lol

 

[CharleyH]

No, even if I took the myth literally - I may or may not, it doesn't matter - I don't believe God made a mistake; it was all part of the plan. Lucifer was God's favourite, and took a dive because he had to. The ultimate sacrifice. Just like Jesus.

I love a good, little Catholic girl.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

As for the devil? Wasn't he just created by the church to keep people at bay? If such a beautiful being was cast from heaven for what, exactly? Rebelliousness? You must see the myth in it?

The church had much power. I doubt any of us are even, to this day, privy to the docs they have. Why do so many people not question? In fact, is that not the thrust of the story of Jesus? To question authority? To question men?

Jesus and Lucifer are not so different.

Been reading a book called "The River of God" that traces all the influences that were operating when Christian theology was being developed. The Jews don't believe in a devil or Satan. The idea that the snake in Eden is the devil is a Christian idea, not Jewish. The entity that torments Job is simply referred to as "The Adversary", which is what "Satan" means in Hebrew. So where did the idea of the Devil as God's enemy come from?

Looks like it came from Persia, from Zoroastrianism, which was the first dualistic religion: a religion that looked at the world as a battleground between good and evil. The holy land at that time was a real melting pot of ideas and philosophies and religions, and Zoroastrian dualism was a powerful idea. It strongly influenced the Gnostic Christians, who believed that the God of this world wasn't the real God, because a perfect God couldn't have created an imperfect world.

The Zoroastrians also believed the world would end with a catastrophic battle between good and evil, and good would win.

Jesus did a lot of casting out of devils and even wrestled with Satan in the desert, so the Devil was built into Christianity from the start. There are a lot of theological problems with the Devil though, such as why God tolerates him.

Christianity had a habit of turning pagan gods into devils as well, and that seems to be where Lucifer comes from. "Beelzebub" is a corruption of the Hebrew "Ba'al Zebul" which means "Lord Prince" and refers to a Canaanite god the Jews hated

 

[CharleyH]

Been reading a book called "The River of God" that traces all the influences that were operating when Christian theology was being developed. The Jews don't believe in a devil or Satan. The idea that the snake in Eden is the devil is a Christian idea, not Jewish. The entity that torments Job is simply referred to as "The Adversary", which is what "Satan" means in Hebrew. So where did the idea of the Devil as God's enemy come from?

Looks like it came from Persia, from Zoroastrianism, which was the first dualistic religion: a religion that looked at the world as a battleground between good and evil. The holy land at that time was a real melting pot of ideas and philosophies and religions, and Zoroastrian dualism was a powerful idea. It strongly influenced the Gnostic Christians, who believed that the God of this world wasn't the real God, because a perfect God couldn't have created an imperfect world.

The Zoroastrians also believed the world would end with a catastrophic battle between good and evil, and good would win.

Jesus did a lot of casting out of devils and even wrestled with Satan in the desert, so the Devil was built into Christianity from the start. There are a lot of theological problems with the Devil though, such as why God tolerates him.

Christianity had a habit of turning pagan gods into devils as well, and that seems to be where Lucifer comes from. "Beelzebub" is a corruption of the Hebrew "Ba'al Zebul" which means "Lord Prince" and refers to a Canaanite god the Jews hated

I think the book sounds fascinating, Doc. I do have a wonder about why we think there is a perfect god, although I must say a pefectionist would indeed create an imperfect world, if only to be perfect (but that's beside the point).

Every myth starts and ends the same across every religion/myth as both Jung and Campbell point out. And yes, I agree Christianity has habits, but so does Jewish religion/myth, so do they all. Are we not all not the same, and from the same place according to every myth? Is the promised land meant to be for Jews, or for all who are "God's" children? How we lower ouselves in war, if not on the basis of religion or myth, except on the basis of our nature as animals.

Maybe the myths we view, religions, are from philosophers? Maybe we need the myths. Maybe God is a sadist, or maybe we need to look into ourselves? Maybe we look, as every religion or myth tells us? Or maybe ... maybe Marx was right?

 

[sweetnpetite]

You make good points. Things are not that linear, but they're still good points. Lucifer is the bringer of light.

Maybe that's why Jesus was cast out of heaven and sent to earth to die...

Oh boy, I'm in trouble for sayin' that.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Been reading a book called "The River of God" that traces all the influences that were operating when Christian theology was being developed. The Jews don't believe in a devil or Satan. The idea that the snake in Eden is the devil is a Christian idea, not Jewish. The entity that torments Job is simply referred to as "The Adversary", which is what "Satan" means in Hebrew. So where did the idea of the Devil as God's enemy come from?

Looks like it came from Persia, from Zoroastrianism, which was the first dualistic religion: a religion that looked at the world as a battleground between good and evil. The holy land at that time was a real melting pot of ideas and philosophies and religions, and Zoroastrian dualism was a powerful idea. It strongly influenced the Gnostic Christians, who believed that the God of this world wasn't the real God, because a perfect God couldn't have created an imperfect world.

The Zoroastrians also believed the world would end with a catastrophic battle between good and evil, and good would win.

Jesus did a lot of casting out of devils and even wrestled with Satan in the desert, so the Devil was built into Christianity from the start. There are a lot of theological problems with the Devil though, such as why God tolerates him.

Christianity had a habit of turning pagan gods into devils as well, and that seems to be where Lucifer comes from. "Beelzebub" is a corruption of the Hebrew "Ba'al Zebul" which means "Lord Prince" and refers to a Canaanite god the Jews hated

Thanks for the info doc. Just got a couple of questions for you.

1. How do Jews interpret Job? What is the meaning and so forth? What is the roll of the Adversary? And what is his meaning. Why does he make a bet with God and why does God agree too it? I am interested in this alternate interpretation to the one I grew up with. (You learn things mean certain things and it makes it hard to think that they mean something else- I see the same thing with political issues)

2. Do you know of any good books that specifically show the differences between christian and jewish interpretations of the OT?

And finally 3. Do you know why, if Christ was a Jew, why was he so focused on Satan and devils? that seems a bit mysterious.

Just thought of something. If a nation or group of non-english speaking people refer to the US (or the western hemisphere or whatever) as the Great Satan- does that mean that they are simply calling us a big adversary and not really accusing us of being evil or comparing us to the Christian Devil?

 

[sweetnpetite]

Maybe God is a sadist...

Maybe. What if all the [major] proffits really did hear from god, and he just wanted to watch us fight over him? What if he really did tell the Jews that they were his favorite... and then he told the Muslums that he loved them the best. The god of the OT did come accross at time as mercurial and fickle; a rather tempermental being. (after all- where did the word 'diva' come from and what are they [in common usage] known for?)

Think about it. We have a being with no parents and no siblings. Add to that absolute power, including the power to decide what is right and what is wrong. No one can stop him, no one can tell him no. It sounds like the recipe for the creation of a sociopath.

 

[shadowvoid]

now, to be clear, i am a pagan, or a taoist, or a shintoist,
or something of this nature, a topic for another time
and thread, but, i do like this passage by kafka ........
shadow,


The Coming of the Messiah

The messiah will come as soon as the most unbridled individualism of
faith becomes possible—when there is no one to destroy this possibility
and no one to suffer its destruction; hence the graves will open themselves.
This, perhaps, is Christian doctrine too, applying as much to the actual
presentation of the example to be emulated, which is an individualistic
example, as to the symbolic presentation of the resurrection of the
Mediator in the single individual,

The Messiah will come only when he is no longer necessary; he will come
only on the day after his arrival; he will come, not on the last day, but on
the very last.

by Franz Kafka