Everyone loves a sadist?

[Primalex]

Oh, the joker from batman!!! He’s pure sadist.

There is no sadism. He is an anarchist without empathy. He likes to break the laws, both legal and moral and he enjoys corrupting others with this trait (f.e. the ferry thingy), so causing anarchism, but he does not thrive on causing pain.

 

[Keroin]

Revenge. Someone whos been hurt, who now wants to dish out the hurt. People often cheer for them, you know, like that dude from the crank films. But then even he, at most times, had more of a motive than to just make pain.

I’d say mob movies come close. Whats his name, “how am I funny” guy… you know from “all I ever wanted to be was a gangster”. Or are those different? I’m not good with names and titles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iELKMNjZx9o

Oh, the joker from batman!!! He’s pure sadist. And Him from the powerpuff girls, he’s the most evil of all. For those who don’t know, Hims master plan was to steal the smiles of all children. That’s some fucked up shit right there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2ZfFB8GHic

Well, Pesci's character isn't the protagonist, he's a side character and the Joker - sadist or not - is the antagonist and, as such, can be as cruel as he wants, so neither really apply. I'm looking for heroes who are also sadists or have sadistic tendencies.

And I just can't bring myself to watch the Powerpuff girls...sorry. LOL.

I must say, however, I did love Ledger's performance as the Joker. Shame what happened with him in RL. Actors, they just have to take themselves less seriously.

 

[Keroin]

Heathcliff in Wuthering Heights (the book, I mean -cos the films are very watered down)

Gosh, it's been so long since I read it, I can barely remember the story. I'll have to revisit it at some point.

 

[midwestyankee]

Gosh, it's been so long since I read it, I can barely remember the story. I'll have to revisit it at some point.

Don't get lost wandering on the moors.

 

[Keroin]

Reading through all the replies, (thank you everyone), I'm seeing a few trends.

Sadism in a hero is possibly acceptable if:

1. There is an outlet for the sadism that the reader finds agreeable.
2. The hero struggles with and generally despises that part of him.
3. The hero does not commit acts of cruelty or pain strictly for his/her own pleasure (in which case they are not technically a sadist,though).

 

[00Syd]

But again, what about characters you love to hate? I would gladly spend the rest of my life reading books and watching movies about completely despicable people because goddamnit, their just so much more interesting than the good guys! Just because I can't relate to them, and I find what they do to be horrible, doesn't mean I can't enjoy their story.

 

[Keroin]

But again, what about characters you love to hate? I would gladly spend the rest of my life reading books and watching movies about completely despicable people because goddamnit, their just so much more interesting than the good guys! Just because I can't relate to them, and I find what they do to be horrible, doesn't mean I can't enjoy their story.

Those characters are my favourite. As a kid, I would always secretly hope that the bad guy would win, lol.

Creating a compelling hero is tricky, in my opinion. They have to be flawed. Most humans reject perfection, or even too much "goodness" on some level. Flaws create tension, which creates drama, which draws us into the story. It's just a matter of making them good but not too good, and bad but not too bad, or so I believe.

But a well written/acted bad guy outshines the hero almost every time, for me.

 

[teknight]

I've tried posting a bunch of replies to the thread already, but lit had logged me off.
I'm not going through with that hassle again, however:

As an example, I offer John Clegg from the Collector by John Fowles. He causes pain to his victim, even if doesn't mean to. He can't relate to her, so he winds up abusing her.

This goes to a greater question, which is easy to answer in literature/fiction in general, but hard to answer in RL: what motivates someone? In fiction we might have a first person perspective, telling us why the character's doing what they're doing, or an omniscient author telling us that the character's a sadist.

What I find interesting in some of the replies here is that public opinion seems to be a deciding factor: sure, we can agree an action is despicable, but can we discern its motives?

In my opinion, human action is ultimately driven by the pursuit of pleasure/happiness, even if one might not agree with the means (sadistic behavior): think of a torturer who's trying to get info from a terrorist. (Ignore the fact that torture's not a good data gathering method, if you will).

 

[teknight]

Wikipedia!

Wiki to the rescue!
It's a list of sadism (and masochism) in fiction.

 

[Keroin]

Wiki to the rescue!
It's a list of sadism (and masochism) in fiction.

Hm, not a lot of mainstream fiction on that list, though.

 

[teknight]

Hm, not a lot of mainstream fiction on that list, though.

True- but are you really expecting a lot of mainstream literature to deal with the topic- never mind have a sadistic hero?

 

[Keroin]

True- but are you really expecting a lot of mainstream literature to deal with the topic- never mind have a sadistic hero?

It wasn't the topic, it was only the hero I was asking about. And while, no, I wouldn't expect most (or any) heroes to be sadists, I was curious as to why there couldn't be a sadist hero, etc, etc.

 

[teknight]

It wasn't the topic, it was only the hero I was asking about. And while, no, I wouldn't expect most (or any) heroes to be sadists, I was curious as to why there couldn't be a sadist hero, etc, etc.

By topic I meant lit. that has a sadist hero- as you said, that might not sell...that, or editors and publishers are prudes.
Well, a sadist deals in pain, whether for his own pleasure or not. Heroes aren't supposed to do that. Sure, they might be flawed and whatnot, but they should avoid causing pain, and be genuinely remorseful...otherwise they're, at best, useful, but to be avoided. They carry a stigma.

Wait- by hero do you mean protagonist, or an actual hero?

 

[Keroin]

By topic I meant lit. that has a sadist hero- as you said, that might not sell...that, or editors and publishers are prudes.
Well, a sadist deals in pain, whether for his own pleasure or not. Heroes aren't supposed to do that. Sure, they might be flawed and whatnot, but they should avoid causing pain, and be genuinely remorseful...otherwise they're, at best, useful, but to be avoided. They carry a stigma.

Wait- by hero do you mean protagonist, or an actual hero?

Protagonist.

 

[YourCaptor]

There is no sadism. He is an anarchist without empathy. He likes to break the laws, both legal and moral and he enjoys corrupting others with this trait (f.e. the ferry thingy), so causing anarchism, but he does not thrive on causing pain.

Umm, I'm not a comic book nerd, but I see the joker hitting the same things over and over again, such as batman, not killing him, but just fucking with him to get his laughs.

Well, Pesci's character isn't the protagonist, he's a side character and the Joker - sadist or not - is the antagonist and, as such, can be as cruel as he wants, so neither really apply. I'm looking for heroes who are also sadists or have sadistic tendencies.

And I just can't bring myself to watch the Powerpuff girls...sorry. LOL.

I must say, however, I did love Ledger's performance as the Joker. Shame what happened with him in RL. Actors, they just have to take themselves less seriously.

Ledger needed a better laugh, and costume, he just wasn't flamboyant enough. I think the jokers like a one man show, bigger than life character, always on stage or upstaging, not some working in the dark, party crasher. But then the jokers also one of my favorites, maybe because I can identify. And if I remember correctly, he does play hero sometimes.

And powerpuff girls, give it a try, it's actually really good. Don't take yourself too serious.

Heros though. How about Spawn?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH7JO8XIBn4

 

[teknight]

How about the Punisher as a sadist?

 

[YourCaptor]

The evil of Him compared to that of other do baders.

Watching this, I was totally on for liking powerpuff girls. Though it didn't make middle school life any easier. But then again, it did win me over some chicks. Back when no male dared to even think about anything pink.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GV79dKTk18k

PS. amoeba boys were genius.

 

[Cattypuss]

Don't get lost wandering on the moors.

.... or the werewolf might getcha.



Oh no, hang on - that's American Werewolf in London, not Wuthering Heights.

 

[Homburg]

Severian, the protagonist in Gene Wolf's "Book of the New Sun" series was a member of the Torturer's Guild and an executioner. I would not call Severian a sadist per se, as it was basically just his job, but it did make for an interesting concept. Then again, it's been a damned long time since I read through the book. Maybe he was a sadist. I just remember him being dispassionate about it.

There was also a Piers Anthony short story about a torturer who is convicted of some heinous crime and put to the torture himself. That character, while the protagonist, was very definitely a sadist. Very difficult short story to read. Some of the imagery was particularly horrific.

I was also planning on mentioning Frank Castle, aka the Punisher, from Marvel Comics. He has his reasons, sure, but he's a sadist. Like the line from True Lies though, his victims are "all bad."

I would look also, perhaps, at the narrator from Fight Club. I've not read the book, but Tyler Durden was a sadist in the movie, and, well, no spoilers. Something to think about though, as there were some times when the narrator was clearly sadistic.

--

Hm, some time ago I linked a great article about "villains" in stories. Maybe I find it again..
The editor is right, villains need motivations like heroes, they are not bad per se, they just view the world from a different point of view. I think the movie 'Watchmen' captures this perfectly.

When I write the antagonists in my games, they always have motivations. They HAVE to have them. Sans motivations, they will not act in a plausible manner. Suspension of disbelief goes right out the window.

Now for reality, I'm a hardliner. Sadism is thriving on dealing pain. It's not thriving on the knowledge that she likes pain. (insert Homburgs veto now). So a real sadist is always a bad guy, who won't get into trouble if he finds a masochist. The sadist doesn't differ between good and bad reasons for dealing pain, his view is whether he enjoys it right now or not.

No veto from me. You didn't use that "suffering" line.

 

[DVS]

If nobody has already mentioned it, not just a general sadist, there is also a sexual sadist. Although, society considers this a disorder, and it goes farther than I would ever wish to go (even mentioning killing) it is closer to what I am, as opposed to a general sadist.

I could never harm someone else, an animal, or insect etc. unless it was necessary for my personal well being. And even then, I'd try to think of another way that didn't involve killing or dying. I don't think a sadist would even think of someone else's well being.

A sexual sadist is excited sexually by the rape, beating and torment of another individual. While I don't want to take some of these things to the extreme because of the BDSM safety issues, I do find them sexually attractive.

OK, who wants to help with my um...illness?

 

[BiaTcHiNFiRe]

A good caring sadist turn me on yes. Guess it's becuase I love some kind of pain applied on me.

The sicko sadists can go fuck them selvs! lol