Fahreneit 9/11 Redux

[Lord DragonsWing]

Lord says,

Moore picks and chooses his clips

Well, tarnation (slaps forehead)!! That's it.

What method do you recommend? Do you like the Warhol 7 hour film of the sleeping man?

lmao. Pure, I think you'd argue with a stop sign.

 

[shereads]

Before I sharpen my wit and put it back in its sheath for the evening, I'd like to thank Pure for coming to my defense and to assure you, J, that it's not necessary. I don't do "victim" terribly well, but I've been victimized by some of the saintliest people in this forum at one time or another, and they know who they are and they know what I'm talking about. I got over it. In fact, I had almost forgotten about it until something here today reminded me. The only people our conservative friends have blamed for anything that's happened during the course of this misguided war have been (1) the liberal media for telling us and showing us, and (2) Kerry, for having forced the "Support Our Troops With Silence" faction to face the ultimate conumdrum: a veteran who insulted himself! The nerve! For which reason they are happy to give GWB another four years. Let's all be good Germans, shall we? Let's not make a mean movie about the president while he's killing people. There is no place for malice during an unwarranted war.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

This thread has sucked out my brain and replaced it with a cybernetic implant. I'm afraid I must bow out and chase one John Connor for reasons I don't fully understand. I apologize to someone for something or something once my thoughts stop coming with a menu bar.

 

[shereads]

Doc, in all seriousness, how is the film not lying or misrepresenting when Moore picks and chooses his clips?

Name a way to make a movie that lasts two hours without choosing clips.

I was standing there dumbfounded when I saw the jets hitting the WTC. Most of us were. Friends were calling me and they were speechless. So was Bush.

And you are using selective clips when you leave out the fact that Bush, unlike the rest of us who had a right to be dumbfounded, had been warned that this would happen and had ignored it. As you say,

even Clinton warned Bush about Bin Laden.

Significantly, in Clinton's book he talks about that first meeting, and how Bush surprised him by saying that it would not be terrorism that was his priority, but the missile defense system. There must still be a way to blame Clinton for Bush's ineptitude, but right now we're blaming Michael Moore for making him not only act stupid, but look stupid.

AT LEAST FIVE BOOKS - NOT BY MICHAEL MOORE, BUT BY PEOPLE FROM INSIDE THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION - HAVE BEEN WRITTEN IN A FAILED ATTEMPT TO MAKE YOU AWARE THAT:

Bush ORDERED the intelligence community to connect Saddam with 9/11.

The Bush White House outed Joseph Wilson's wife and virtually assured that from then on, the CIA would support Bush's story.

Richard Clarke was demoted for failing to tell the president what he wanted to hear.

Is there something in the air that makes conservatives unable to acknowledge the truth if they don't like it? The conservatives in this forum have complained about every action of the media that hasn't supported the war, but not one of you has been able to refute any of their facts. Moore "selectively uses film clips" but the White House is a bastion of truth.

How is it possible that you people supported the impeachment of a capable and effective president because he got a blow job, and then lied about it, yet you're incensed that Michael Moore isn't a nice man when he makes his movie about the president whose lies have cost people their lives? Have you no remorse at all about what your support of Bush has cost the world? He coudn't have done it without you. Keep up the good work.

 

[Lord DragonsWing]

.
Keep up the good work. [/B]

Those who seek the truth without an alliance to any political party shall shereads. I am one of those. I've read the many books for Bush by the Reppublicans and against Bush by the Democrats. Somewhere in the middle is the truth.

But this film was nothing but a personal attack by Moore. Which in my independent, non-party way of thinking, shows that those in hollywood just found a way to finance political commercials, call them documentaries, affect the vote through the theatre and have the public fund the entire mess. If someone did this against Clinton during the last election I would of spoken out about that also. But they couldn't. He was not up for re-election.

All I'm saying is look at the entire picture. Read the papers, the books and make your own opinion. Don't read one pov. Read them all.

 

[shereads]

Those who seek the truth without an alliance to any political party shall shereads. I am one of those. I've read the many books for Bush by the Reppublicans and against Bush by the Democrats. Somewhere in the middle is the truth.

But this film was nothing but a personal attack by Moore. Which in my independent, non-party way of thinking, shows that those in hollywood just found a way to finance political commercials, call them documentaries, affect the vote through the theatre and have the public fund the entire mess. If someone did this against Clinton during the last election I would of spoken out about that also. But they couldn't. He was not up for re-election.

All I'm saying is look at the entire picture. Read the papers, the books and make your own opinion. Don't read one pov. Read them all.

The public funded a little thing called the Starr Report. The public funds the White House "information office." But in the name of all that's holy, there is no liberal in Hollywood who funded Michael Moore's movie. Jesus Christ. No wonder Michael Moore and I are on the attack. You people are living in another reality.

FYI, I haven't met an "independent" yet who isn't a Bush voter, or who didn't cheer the effort to bring down the Clinton presidency. I'll bet you didn't complain a lot about those personal attacks, which actually were paid for with public money.

 

[thebullet]

William Shirer was a writer and newsman who lived in Nazi Germany up until America entered the war. He was one of Edward R. Murrow's associates for CBS News back in the day. He also wrote a famous book: "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" which I've read several times.

Another book he wrote was "Berlin Diary", which chronicaled his time in Berlin during the Hitler period. An interesting passage of that book was when Shirer did man-in-the-street interviews of average German citizens during the month of September, 1939. I'm sure you all remember that the Blitkrieg started on September 1, 1939 when Germany invaded Poland.

These average Germans, when asked about the war, were just appalled at the actions of the Poles. Their attitude was "What have we ever done to have them treat us so shabbily?" Of course, what they had done was invade their country and destroy their government.

What I am saying, very poorly I know, is that there are many Americans who are more than willing to act just like the Germans did during the reign of Hitler.

Don't get your panties in a wad, conservatives. I am not equating Bush with Hitler. For one thing, Hitler was a genius. Bush is a fucking idiot.

But this refusal to see fault; refusal to acknowledge weakness; insistance that they are always right; insistance that by definition they represent all that is patriotic about America; these things are dangerous.

This guy "Lord Dragonwing" doesn't know a lot about documentary film making, does he? Documentary filmmaking is usually advocacy filmmaking. Given his blind love for this far right regime, he should certainly be familiar with Leni Riefenstahl's "Triumph of the Will", the documentary that showed the Nazi Party rally at Nuremberg so impressively.

As for his opinion that we should read multiple Points of View, until the last year or so there really was only one POV being portrayed in the mainstream American media - the government's POV. The rash of books by ex-Administraition people, the war crimes being committed in Iraqi prisons by the American military, and most of all the incompetence with which this administration has handled the 'post-war' period in Iraq has forced the mainstream media to begin looking at both sides of the story. But they've been carried, kicking and screaming, toward a 'fair and balanced' view of this administration.

If the extreme Right were at all competent, this country would be on the verge of a fascist dictatorship. Thank God the Right wing is led by outright fools or our democracy would be in serious danger.

 

[shereads]

Don't get your panties in a wad, conservatives. I am not equating Bush with Hitler. For one thing, Hitler was a genius. Bush is a fucking idiot.

I want to give you one of my kidneys.

 

[thebullet]

I want to give you one of my kidneys.

No, thanks. But the way I've been drinking this summer, I might be able to use your liver.

 

[shereads]

No, thanks. But the way I've been drinking this summer, I might be able to use your liver.

David Crosby has first dibs on my liver. Maybe the two of you can each get by with half?

 

[Pure]

The Lord said,

lmao. Pure, I think you'd argue with a stop sign.

OK, ya got me. But my 'argument' at times is simply to ignore them.

Actually, let me put your claim more accurately: Sometime I make postings, for fun, to those whose argumentive skills scarcely exceed those of a stop sign. Guilty.

 

[Pure]

bullet, nice piece, you have have the other half liver from me.

as to:
If the extreme Right were at all competent, this country would be on the verge of a fascist dictatorship.

[...]
the Right wing is led by outright fools


This is an interesting question, regarding competence.

You can't assume that because the front man's a brain-wizened coke head, that that's who's in charge. Cheney, Wolfie, Rummy, Rove, Asscroft, ScaleyJaws, etc are more likely leaders, and all the spooks we don't know the names of.

There are signs of at least some competence: rightward shift over the last 20 years; control of key institutions, like the SC.
Increasing alliances with the 'right' churches, and government entwinement with them.

We've got a US citizen, Padilla, imprisoned without charges for two years, and all the SC has done is refer the case back down.

So things appear to be moving along. Perhaps a sign of minimal competence in the real 'movers.' What say you?

On the other side of your comparison: Hitler's 'competence' wasnt that great after a while; read the last couple years of the war with Soviets, esp. when he's using trains that could supply troops, to ferry Jews to deathcamps.

Question: Does fascism always come with at least a streak of weirdness, incompetence, and even insanity?

 

[Tanuki]

I was standing there dumbfounded when I saw the jets hitting the WTC. Most of us were. Friends were calling me and they were speechless. So was Bush. Yet Moore, in the film plays on that. As you say, this was a personal attack. Nothing more or nothing less. It was not a documentary as I define one. Saddams search for yellow cake uranium. Which we now know happened in Niger, for the purpose of nuclear bombs.
LDW [/B]

Bush is not one of us, he's the Command in Chief. You or I might panic if we were shot at, but the Army lieutenant is supposed to take appropriate action. Bush sat there for 7 minutes with a dumb look on his face - clearly he was out of his element. Say what you will about Kerry, but he didn't panic under fire.

I can't believe anyone is bringing up the Nigerian uranium story, even the CIA said from the start the story was fabricated. They told Bush that repeatedly.

 

[shereads]

bullet, nice piece, you have have the other half liver from me.

If we have two livers, there's no need to split either one. Crosby can have mine, thebullet can have yours...Or are you offering just half?

You can't assume that because the front man's a brain-wizened coke head, that that's who's in charge.

Neither can you assume that his brain is wizened because he was a coke head. West Wing hasn't been nearly as well-scripted since Aaron Sorkin left, and he was known to have resurfaced his sinuses with a snow blower. I imagine the brain you're referring to endured a lot of beer with an occasional coke chaser.

There are signs of at least some competence: rightward shift over the last 20 years; control of key institutions, like the SC... Increasing alliances with the 'right' churches, and government entwinement with them...We've got a US citizen, Padilla, imprisoned without charges for two years, and all the SC has done is refer the case back down.

I think we have a winner. Thank you, J. Choose any stuffed animal from the lower shelf...All of this matters precisely because Germany didn't go Nazi overnight. A lot of perfectly lovely people were seduced into it in small, harmless-seeming doses. I'd be willing to bet that one of the first signs was someone at the office water cooler, defending a scary new law by saying, "If it keeps us safe, and I'm not doing anything wrong, why should I object?"

Question: Does fascism always come with at least a streak of weirdness, incompetence, and even insanity?

Totalitarian regimes seem to need charismatic leaders, and by their nature, highly charismatic people are different. If they happen to also be ruthless and cold-blooded in the face of opposition - or if their cohorts have that capacity - there's an element of something insane.

But the essential point is what you said earlier: It's working. The idiot in charge is just a distraction.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Moore left out much. The intelligence reports, which we all know are flawed by now. The past documents from the previous administration. Which even Clinton warned Bush about Bin Laden. Saddams search for yellow cake uranium. Which we now know happened in Niger, for the purpose of nuclear bombs.

I'll give Bush credit for one thing. He kept his mouth shut to protect the intelligence commumity and is suffering from the feedback.

The administration's evidence that Saddam was supposedly in contact with Nigeria to obtain raw (not weapons-grade) uranium has been shown to be have been based on forged documents. Even Ari Fleisher has admitted that.

http://www.time.com/time/columnist/karon/article/0,9565,463779,00.html

As far as Bush keeping his mouth shut to protect intelligence agents, someone in his administration opened theirs wide enough to reveal that Valerie Plame was a CIA agent. Plame was the wife of Joseph Wilson, the man who investigated the Iraq-Nigeria uranium link fore the administration and found it to be false, and then wrote an article in the NY Times saying so, in contradiction to the administration's line. Bush has sworn to find the person who leaked her identity--a federal offense--but has done everything he could to stall the investigation. He has even gone so far as to retain a criminal attorney to represent himself before the investigating committee.

This is the story as I understand it so far. If I'm mistaken, I would like to hear about it.

---dr.M.

 

[shereads]

The administration's evidence that Saddam was supposedly in contact with Nigeria to obtain raw (not weapons-grade) uranium has been shown to be have been based on forged documents. Even Ari Fleisher has admitted that.

Not just forged documents, but forged so clumsily that the state seal (which even a disinterested professional forger could have accessed online) was reproduced from a drawing. There was a photo of the documents in one of the newsmagazines, Time or Newsweek, when this scam was in the press last year. I recall it as Scam Number One. I thought it was famous.

http://www.time.com/time/columnist/karon/article/0,9565,463779,00.html

As far as Bush keeping his mouth shut to protect intelligence agents, someone in his administration opened theirs wide enough to reveal that Valerie Plame was a CIA agent. Plame was the wife of Joseph Wilson, the man who investigated the Iraq-Nigeria uranium link fore the administration and found it to be false, and then wrote an article in the NY Times saying so, in contradiction to the administration's line. Bush has sworn to find the person who leaked her identity--a federal offense--but has done everything he could to stall the investigation. He has even gone so far as to retain a criminal attorney to represent himself before the investigating committee.

This is the story as I understand it so far. If I'm mistaken, I would like to hear about it.

---dr.M. [/B]