Family drama?

[NightL]

Seems that jbj has a dribbly cock

Back to the OP - My suggestion is straight talk - "I don't like your partner for... I will never bring this up again. My main concern is how you are treating our mother, this I will never forgive you for unless you start to appreciate all that family has provided you and you start displaying the respect due. When you are ready we will be there. Your call."

Then leave it alone. Keep your distance. No need to ever bring it up again.

Many of us will make significant mistakes in our lives and unfortunate choices in who we associate with. Probably will never listen to the most logical and obvious advice during those times. It is the journey.

If the family values were strong - your brother will be back - may take a while - he just needs to know that family will be there for him when he is ready to make that step.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Yes you may ask, and yes we did.

My sister and I have had a long tough go life. She is actually my foster sister, but seeing we met at 12/10(she is older) and we are now mid forties and very close we are brother/sister. But we both came from broken abusive homes

She was raped when she was 21 and the cops got the guy and the courts as usual with rape seeing as how it is rarely a crime in our disgrace of a legal system let him go. He made the mistake of sticking around the state (RI is a very small state) and running his mouth.

I sent him to the hospital and decades later he still needs a cane to walk and they sent me to jail. (Rape =no crime, beating rapists=crime) My sister came to see me almost every day for close to three years.

Thing is she had, like many victims, known her rapist. I warned her to stay the hell away from him, even as a friend. Anyway she spent all those visits swearing she would never doubt me again.

Until that asshole came around a few years later. My sister was a sexually abused child and up until she met her husband( who is a great guy and damn good to her, because trust me with her baggage she is not always easy to deal with) ten years ago continued to follow that pattern of falling for men who were abusive in some way shape or form.

In your brother's case he is not being abused, but we all know of nice guys who end up with bitches and their lives can be made just as hellish.

The first thing the "bad seed" works on is eliminating family and friends. Anyone who will take him aside and say "Hey, look...."

Its hard because we are all old enough to know this game. We know if we speak out we risk being put on the outs.

It's unfair and frustrating and you hurt for yourself, but more for your brother. But sad fact is like I said it is all on your brother to make his choice.

Oh, and as for the poster who suggested the ass whipping? I think they were referring to you beating his girlfriend, not him.

It's funny when you remarked about him being 6'2" 230.

To quote the cliche size doesn't matter. Back when I got locked up I was 5'8"(well still am) and about 150lbs(still only 170 at 45) and her attacker was a 6'4" linebacker for a local college.

But size doesn't stop a rage addict with a nasty mean streak (and the black belt helped as well)

Besides he's your brother and wouldn't hit you back anyway. So maybe you should smack him silly.

What you say is true. At the hospital we had take-downs almost every shift, almost always with the teens or detox admissions. A scrawny lil teen will fuck you up right now, and a big guy needs a running start to maybe run you over if you don't move. Kids and women are coordinated and pack more force across a smaller area of foot or fist. A guys gotta hoist that ham up, like a crane, and try and get it to go where he aims. Get a guy down on the floor and he stays down, not a kid or woman. That's when the fun begins with them.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

LOVEBOAT

The worst ass whuppin I ever got was the time I sat on my sister and cut her fingernails off. They claw everything when theyre around 10 or so, so I got clawed one day and decided to fix that problem with my Lone Ranger nail-clippers. If you want a group ass whuppin from all the gals, trim a womans nails or hair.

 

[NippleMuncher]

In your brother's case he is not being abused, but we all know of nice guys who end up with bitches and their lives can be made just as hellish.

That is not true, emotional abuse, is still abuse, and probably the most insidious of abuses. If I've been following the descriptions correctly, the brother is under all kinds of it. What I see is that he's made some bad choices and now feels trapped by them, hence the outbursts of anger and disrespect, these are the physical manifestations of the turmoil going on inside of him. His manipulator has taken away his personal power, something that he needs to find again (with the help of family ) if he's going to learn and grow from this experience.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Back to the OP - My suggestion is straight talk - "I don't like your partner for... I will never bring this up again. My main concern is how you are treating our mother, this I will never forgive you for unless you start to appreciate all that family has provided you and you start displaying the respect due. When you are ready we will be there. Your call."

This is basically good advice, but I'd avoid phrasing it as a personal judgement. That just provokes defensive/hostile reactions. Keep it objective and focused on behaviours and consequences:

"I don't like your partner for X" -> "I'm not willing to be around your partner if she's going to do X". Or even just "I'm not willing to be around your partner because I have issues with her behaviour to me/our parents".

"I will never forgive you for X" -> "I'm not willing to stay in contact with you while you're doing X".

 

[fire_breeze]

Thank you all those who contributed and offered advice and their personal points of view. I very much appreciate it.

Breeze~

Okay I am going to try to say this diplomatically and I will admit that I am struggling to find the words. But I have been on both sides of this thing.

I have a MIL who I could give my kidney to and she would still hate me. I will even go so far as to say that probably in the beginning I unintentionally did things that offended her. But that was 20 years ago and she still hasn't let it go. The fact is she has a poor opinion of me and if it hasn't changed in 20 years, it ain't gonna.

On the flip side I have a brother who I used to adore but who I haven't actually spoken to in almost 8 months. He has made decisions that affected my family and been completely unrepentant about them. And I detest the way he has been treating not only me but also the rest of our family.

But here it is.... everybody has to own their own shit. It was the realization I had to come to. My MIL hates me, okay. I still order her flowers for Mother's Day and send a card from all of us on her birthday. She likes to believe it is from hubby and so I shrug and let her.

My parents chose to be hurt by my brother. And for a while I thought that maybe I could broker a peace. But the truth is as long as they are willing to accept his mistreatment of them, there is nothing I can do about it. I have decided that he will not mistreat me any longer and I have let my family know that I have no intention of dealing with him. And that is all I can do.

I fear that by you placing yourself between your brother and your parents you are going to get caught in the crossfire. This is a hurt that they choose to accept. And you really can't do anything about it. They have to do it for themselves.

I do feel for you in that, as your parents are aging, you are looking at possibly caring for them on your own. To that I can just say that my sister and I face the same issue and so we are making plans to our own benefit. My brother doesn't want to be a part of the conversation then he isn't. We have talked with my parents and we have worked out what will happen and we have no expectation of my brother's help.

I am hoping that this doesn't come off as harsh, because I honestly and truly to not mean for it to be. This is a reality that I deal with as well and I can understand the confusion and hurt that you are dealing with. But as everyone is saying this is a choice your brother is making and now your parents and you need to decide how much of it you are willing to take. Sadly though everyone has to fight their own battles in their own way.

I hope I haven't misunderstood your predicament or what you were asking. And I wish you all the best. I really hope your brother comes to his senses sooner rather than later.

Blu, thank you. You didn't misunderstand my predicament - and you were not harsh at all!! I do have to pick my battles, and honestly I have so much going through in my life right now that I may have been a bit more sensitive to my brother's assholeish ways. Plus, like it or not, I am the peace-maker in my entire family, so I may just have to distance myself a bit as well.

Yes you may ask, and yes we did.

My sister and I have had a long tough go life. She is actually my foster sister, but seeing we met at 12/10(she is older) and we are now mid forties and very close we are brother/sister. But we both came from broken abusive homes

She was raped when she was 21 and the cops got the guy and the courts as usual with rape seeing as how it is rarely a crime in our disgrace of a legal system let him go. He made the mistake of sticking around the state (RI is a very small state) and running his mouth.

I sent him to the hospital and decades later he still needs a cane to walk and they sent me to jail. (Rape =no crime, beating rapists=crime) My sister came to see me almost every day for close to three years.

Thing is she had, like many victims, known her rapist. I warned her to stay the hell away from him, even as a friend. Anyway she spent all those visits swearing she would never doubt me again.

Until that asshole came around a few years later. My sister was a sexually abused child and up until she met her husband( who is a great guy and damn good to her, because trust me with her baggage she is not always easy to deal with) ten years ago continued to follow that pattern of falling for men who were abusive in some way shape or form.

In your brother's case he is not being abused, but we all know of nice guys who end up with bitches and their lives can be made just as hellish.

The first thing the "bad seed" works on is eliminating family and friends. Anyone who will take him aside and say "Hey, look...."

Its hard because we are all old enough to know this game. We know if we speak out we risk being put on the outs.

It's unfair and frustrating and you hurt for yourself, but more for your brother. But sad fact is like I said it is all on your brother to make his choice.

Oh, and as for the poster who suggested the ass whipping? I think they were referring to you beating his girlfriend, not him.

It's funny when you remarked about him being 6'2" 230.

To quote the cliche size doesn't matter. Back when I got locked up I was 5'8"(well still am) and about 150lbs(still only 170 at 45) and her attacker was a 6'4" linebacker for a local college.

But size doesn't stop a rage addict with a nasty mean streak (and the black belt helped as well)

Besides he's your brother and wouldn't hit you back anyway. So maybe you should smack him silly.

LC, thank you for sharing your story and for being so bluntly honest. I am so sorry that both you and your sister had to go such terrible trauma and please add me to the list to the one who finds the injustice absolutely disgusting.

That said, you did give me hope and strong insight. I don't know if he is being abused, but he is being manipulated (and let's face it, manipulation is a form of abuse. Been there, got the scars). I think that someone - preferably not his family - should take him aside and point out to him to that he is being alienated from people who care about him.

It's precisely because he is my brother that he will hit me back He taught me how to fight, and he will be bloody sure not to stand there and take it.

Thank you again

Love it!!

I hate to say it, but your brother is likely to follow the path he has started on because he has chosen it, and with all seriousness, how many guys are able to backtrack and admit that they are wrong, once they have started on down that path.

The simple fact is; if she is making him happy, he will stay. If at this stage he realises that greater happiness lies elsewhere, he may leave. Will he honour his family? Well he hasn't so far, so the likelyhood is no.

Sorry to be pessimistic, the guy deserves a slap. He is alienating himself from people who love him and hurting them in the process. *big hugs*

No need to apologise! I've considered giving the guy more than a slap! I honestly don't think he fully realises the extent of hurt he has caused. He may see it as a nuisance or as the parents' over-exaggerating. I might have to talk to one of his friends who has been complaining to me about his behaviour.

Seems that jbj has a dribbly cock

Back to the OP - My suggestion is straight talk - "I don't like your partner for... I will never bring this up again. My main concern is how you are treating our mother, this I will never forgive you for unless you start to appreciate all that family has provided you and you start displaying the respect due. When you are ready we will be there. Your call."

Then leave it alone. Keep your distance. No need to ever bring it up again.

Many of us will make significant mistakes in our lives and unfortunate choices in who we associate with. Probably will never listen to the most logical and obvious advice during those times. It is the journey.

If the family values were strong - your brother will be back - may take a while - he just needs to know that family will be there for him when he is ready to make that step.

It seems that I've been trolled. I'm honoured.

Most of the responses suggest exactly as you do: a no-bullshit, straight up approach to let him know how much of a jerk he's being and then let him alone. I think you've hit it when you said that we all make mistakes in our lives; I need to let him make his but not blindly, if that makes sense?

That is not true, emotional abuse, is still abuse, and probably the most insidious of abuses. If I've been following the descriptions correctly, the brother is under all kinds of it. What I see is that he's made some bad choices and now feels trapped by them, hence the outbursts of anger and disrespect, these are the physical manifestations of the turmoil going on inside of him. His manipulator has taken away his personal power, something that he needs to find again (with the help of family ) if he's going to learn and grow from this experience.

I am hesitant in labelling 'abuse'; I really don't know what goes behind the doors except what he told me and my observations. That said, I am incline to believe that he is being manipulated. I can't make him get out, but I can provide alternatives, right?
This reminds me of

This is basically good advice, but I'd avoid phrasing it as a personal judgement. That just provokes defensive/hostile reactions. Keep it objective and focused on behaviours and consequences:

"I don't like your partner for X" -> "I'm not willing to be around your partner if she's going to do X". Or even just "I'm not willing to be around your partner because I have issues with her behaviour to me/our parents".

"I will never forgive you for X" -> "I'm not willing to stay in contact with you while you're doing X".

I tend to negotiate my way to begin with. Blunt, aggressive talk is rarely how I operate (unless I'm being paid for it), so your suggestions are definitely my alley.

Thank you for your suggestion

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Seems that jbj has a dribbly cock

Back to the OP - My suggestion is straight talk - "I don't like your partner for... I will never bring this up again. My main concern is how you are treating our mother, this I will never forgive you for unless you start to appreciate all that family has provided you and you start displaying the respect due. When you are ready we will be there. Your call."

Then leave it alone. Keep your distance. No need to ever bring it up again.

Many of us will make significant mistakes in our lives and unfortunate choices in who we associate with. Probably will never listen to the most logical and obvious advice during those times. It is the journey.

If the family values were strong - your brother will be back - may take a while - he just needs to know that family will be there for him when he is ready to make that step.

So you know, I complained about your post.

 

[njlauren]

I have been where you are, though in a 180 degree reversed fashion, I had that with my birth family and my own marriage, where my birth family had no respect for our boundaries, thought that my duty was to them above my own mariage, and otherwise were toxic. Put it this way, the abuse was towards us, and this incredible idea that we had no life of our own, our job was to 'the family' i.e my birth family and my father's family, and anything they did was okay, but heaven help we actually set boundaries.....

The way I was taught to handle this in therapy was to realize that while family is something we have and love, the way they behave doesn't always work out well, and that the rule on family members should be do different then the rules we apply to friends, that at the very least, there be respect for us. As I told my birth family, you don't have to particularly like myself or my sweetie, you don't have to be all thrilled, all I ask is what I do of anyone, treat us with respect, as we treat others, and respect our boundaries....that is basically what I asked of my birth family, along with going forward forging a new relationship instead of rehashing the past, and unfortunately, it has failed.....and yes, it hurts like you wouldn't believe, it isn't easy, but know what? If you don't stand up for yourself and your parents, your brother and his wife will walk all over you.

I am not saying to throw it all away or tell him to fuck off, but you have every right to talk to him and tell him what the problem is, how his GF and himself come into their home, into your lives, and treat you with less then respect. Don't make it about the GF, don't badmouth her as a person, but rather talk about the behavior that is the problem. One of the things to keep in mind that you mentioned is that the GF may not even realize she is doing something insulting, some families have different dynamics or weird ones, in my birth family they used to think that put downs and such were funny, that making fun of someone or saying what could be pretty nasty stuff was 'being funny', and took no stock in it, whereas to other people it is very hurtful. It could be in her family the behavior you are talking about is par for the course, and your brother has gotten used to it. I understand his position, I was caught between my own little family and my birth family, and it is hard.

The thing is, there is nothing wrong with setting boundaries and expectations. if your parents and you have things you expect, there is nothing wrong with expressing what you expect and setting boundaries, it can be done politely and without rancor. It isn't about throwing them out of the family, or your brother is no longer your brother, it is saying "I love you, you are my brother, but we have certain things we expect from anyone, family or friends, and if you can't meet with us on that, it will be hard to have a relationship.

I think of course it is important to figure out things like what you can live with and what you can't and making them known. There may be things you can swallow or overlook to try and keep the peace, but if you find you are giving up too much, you can't just pretend it doesn't go on, I did that, and it damn nearly tore my own family apart. I understand where you are coming from, my in laws are Hungarian (my sweetie was born there), and there is one thing with that culture I know, there are certain things that are very important, and they aren't taken lightly (and yeah, if you father goes after your brother and his GF, I pity them, the Hungarian language is very expressive with curses and such, and also, when they get mad and get on a roll, it is something to be seen......

I wish you luck, I hope it all works out. If you set boundaries and your brother refuses to recognize them, then it is in his court what he does, all you can do is tell him you are sorry, but that the door is always open if he can see what you are asking for, and leave it at that. Don't attack the GF, rather make it about their behavior, and you will be on the high ground.

 

[fire_breeze]

I have been where you are, though in a 180 degree reversed fashion, I had that with my birth family and my own marriage, where my birth family had no respect for our boundaries, thought that my duty was to them above my own mariage, and otherwise were toxic. Put it this way, the abuse was towards us, and this incredible idea that we had no life of our own, our job was to 'the family' i.e my birth family and my father's family, and anything they did was okay, but heaven help we actually set boundaries.....

The way I was taught to handle this in therapy was to realize that while family is something we have and love, the way they behave doesn't always work out well, and that the rule on family members should be do different then the rules we apply to friends, that at the very least, there be respect for us. As I told my birth family, you don't have to particularly like myself or my sweetie, you don't have to be all thrilled, all I ask is what I do of anyone, treat us with respect, as we treat others, and respect our boundaries....that is basically what I asked of my birth family, along with going forward forging a new relationship instead of rehashing the past, and unfortunately, it has failed.....and yes, it hurts like you wouldn't believe, it isn't easy, but know what? If you don't stand up for yourself and your parents, your brother and his wife will walk all over you.

I am not saying to throw it all away or tell him to fuck off, but you have every right to talk to him and tell him what the problem is, how his GF and himself come into their home, into your lives, and treat you with less then respect. Don't make it about the GF, don't badmouth her as a person, but rather talk about the behavior that is the problem. One of the things to keep in mind that you mentioned is that the GF may not even realize she is doing something insulting, some families have different dynamics or weird ones, in my birth family they used to think that put downs and such were funny, that making fun of someone or saying what could be pretty nasty stuff was 'being funny', and took no stock in it, whereas to other people it is very hurtful. It could be in her family the behavior you are talking about is par for the course, and your brother has gotten used to it. I understand his position, I was caught between my own little family and my birth family, and it is hard.

The thing is, there is nothing wrong with setting boundaries and expectations. if your parents and you have things you expect, there is nothing wrong with expressing what you expect and setting boundaries, it can be done politely and without rancor. It isn't about throwing them out of the family, or your brother is no longer your brother, it is saying "I love you, you are my brother, but we have certain things we expect from anyone, family or friends, and if you can't meet with us on that, it will be hard to have a relationship.

I think of course it is important to figure out things like what you can live with and what you can't and making them known. There may be things you can swallow or overlook to try and keep the peace, but if you find you are giving up too much, you can't just pretend it doesn't go on, I did that, and it damn nearly tore my own family apart. I understand where you are coming from, my in laws are Hungarian (my sweetie was born there), and there is one thing with that culture I know, there are certain things that are very important, and they aren't taken lightly (and yeah, if you father goes after your brother and his GF, I pity them, the Hungarian language is very expressive with curses and such, and also, when they get mad and get on a roll, it is something to be seen......

I wish you luck, I hope it all works out. If you set boundaries and your brother refuses to recognize them, then it is in his court what he does, all you can do is tell him you are sorry, but that the door is always open if he can see what you are asking for, and leave it at that. Don't attack the GF, rather make it about their behavior, and you will be on the high ground.

I very much appreciate this point of view as it helps me what he might be possibly feeling. Granted, I know more things about my brother than I am letting on - it's NOT that I don't like his GF. To be honest, he could date Medusa herself and I don't care. What I do not like is the change of attitude and the behaviour.

That said, you've echoed what most people here has suggested - and you have added the caveat of not making about his girlfriend, but rather on him. I like that, and it will keep help me chose my words considerably more carefully.

I do think you completely understand how puzzling this was and thank you for sharing your understanding (particularly the cultural aspect!) I'm not too worried about Father swearing - much - but... he can wound with his words. Poets do that.

Thank you for sharing and for your advice. And best of luck

 

[subwannabe]

I'm a little late jumping in here but I have to say that your best option is to have a brother to sister serious talk with him without even bringing her up. Don't even hint that you think this is her fault. Don't mention her at all. Just let him know that his behavior has changed and that you are concerned about it and that it has been hurting you and the rest of the family. Let him figure out for himself that it is her fault because if he even thinks that you are implying it then he will defend her. As someone else has already said, she is sucking his cock.

 

[pfflyerhot]

I'd say it's a sucky situation for you. May I suggest your consider keeping your issues concerning the GF out of it. Obviously, call him on his shit concerning you, he and your aging parents... his treatment, behavior towards the family and responsibilities you feel he could take on. Keep his love/sex life out of it, no matter what you think about it. That's his business. You could put a timeline on his behavior with ...time, rather than going the "since you've been with her..." route (paraphrasing here). Something like, "I've noticed over the past...years, months...".
Anyway, fire... dealing with aging parents is very difficult no matter what else is going on. I know from experience. I also know that I am so glad I got to be there for my mother, spend time with her, have fun with her, talk to her... over the final two years of her life, that now, it was sooo fucking worth it. As hard as it was—my sister helped, but she lives out of the area, & I was right in town... it was mostly me—with a full time job, to boot—as hard as it is, you will feel satisfied in the end. I promise.
Toss in the cultural and economical influences on your family dynamics... it's no wonder your head spins at times. My advice? My advice is to remember to be nice to yourself, in whatever capacity that is. Do something nice for yourself everyday, no matter how small, nor how big.

 

[fire_breeze]

I just wanted to give a brief update. I took most off your advice and had a brief talk with my brother. I told him how he is treating our Mother and about his and his girldfriend's behaviour. He denied it, which I sort of expected. However, Mother called to tell me that he has been calling more frequently a d recently they spent the night. Plus, the girlfriend has been trying very hard to do little things for Mother and be less selfish.

So it's an effort, and one that I think that my family appreciates. Thank you so much for all your tips and advice.

Hopefully this drama has ended.

 

[LadyVer]

I just wanted to give a brief update. I took most off your advice and had a brief talk with my brother. I told him how he is treating our Mother and about his and his girldfriend's behaviour. He denied it, which I sort of expected. However, Mother called to tell me that he has been calling more frequently a d recently they spent the night. Plus, the girlfriend has been trying very hard to do little things for Mother and be less selfish.

So it's an effort, and one that I think that my family appreciates. Thank you so much for all your tips and advice.

Hopefully this drama has ended.

 

[NippleMuncher]

You've taken the first step and addressed a few of the issues with your brother. Now, if he is truly making attempts to repair the damage done, take the second step and acknowledge what he's been doing. If he knows you've noticed, he should continue his efforts.

Good luck, I wish you the best.

 

[1dude]

Be who you are and say what you feel, because those that mind don't matter, and those that matter don't mind. A quote I live by. Good luck.