Fan-fic = plagiarism?

[TheEarl]

He's greedy and strange. I love'im

I have to say from most of your quotes of him that I quite like him as well.

The Earl

 

[Sabledrake]

My lawyer says that he would mangle the penis of a fan-fic writer were it the case that they didn't have permission to use the characters/ideas/etc.

Whew, ha-ha, dodged THAT bullet ... biology wins again!

Love the Rowan Atkinson "Devil" quote in your sig! That was a great bit.

-- Sabledrake

 

[TheCaptain]

hehe thanks alot for all of your varying opinions, its greatly appreciated. My work is going to be almost tributary to the original stargate universe and its basis, and I will make NO pretense that it is anything other than fan-fic.

I really want to thank those who've come out to reassure my own somewhat shaken opinion on the entire subject. Within the fortnite, it will be up with the rest of my stories, as Stargate SG-1 : Instincts!

Thanks to all again. Stay

Capt

 

[snooper]

As the person who posted the original accusation of plagiarism on the "other" thread, may I make it clear that my objection is moral, rather than legalistic. I feel some facts here might show the magnitude of the offence.

I write novels for a living. There are twelve in my "Kobekistan" series. (http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=101201 is a short story based in that environment.) In order to keep the environment self-consistent I have an extensive set of background files containing full details of every character who has a name, when, where, and why they met every other character. There are also files for the chronology of all events, and for descriptions of every location (sometimes several if they change over time).

These background files amount (so far) to roughly twice the volume of the actual books, but they increase exponentially as more books are added. Now multiply that by the size of the Stargate saga.

That is how much of someone else's hard work you are using without permission. Added to that, you are causing changes to that background which are not planned, not recorded, and not necessarily consistent with the rest. Since your work will be read, primarily, by people who are already Stargate fans, you are distorting their view of the series.

I have watched a number of episodes, and have detected little evidence of any elements of the main characters which indicate any libido at all. Perhaps the originators intend the whole saga as showing "clean living, all-American, young people without a sinful thought in their heads". By writing pornographic episodes you are changing that ethos, as well as "standing on the shoulders of giants".

 

[TheEarl]

As the person who posted the original accusation of plagiarism on the "other" thread, may I make it clear that my objection is moral, rather than legalistic. I feel some facts here might show the magnitude of the offence.

I write novels for a living. There are twelve in my "Kobekistan" series. (http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=101201 is a short story based in that environment.) In order to keep the environment self-consistent I have an extensive set of background files containing full details of every character who has a name, when, where, and why they met every other character. There are also files for the chronology of all events, and for descriptions of every location (sometimes several if they change over time).

These background files amount (so far) to roughly twice the volume of the actual books, but they increase exponentially as more books are added. Now multiply that by the size of the Stargate saga.

That is how much of someone else's hard work you are using without permission. Added to that, you are causing changes to that background which are not planned, not recorded, and not necessarily consistent with the rest. Since your work will be read, primarily, by people who are already Stargate fans, you are distorting their view of the series.

I have watched a number of episodes, and have detected little evidence of any elements of the main characters which indicate any libido at all. Perhaps the originators intend the whole saga as showing "clean living, all-American, young people without a sinful thought in their heads". By writing pornographic episodes you are changing that ethos, as well as "standing on the shoulders of giants".

Snooper: I am not a great afficiando of Stargate, but I would have thought there was room for a canonical erotic fan-fiction between O'Neill and Carter. As you say to the 'distorting the view of the series', if it is done well, even an AU (Alternate Universe, where the plot diverge irreversably from the show) will not distort the view of the characters to my mind, any more than an AU episode within the series itself would.

I understand that you don't like the thought of anyone 'using' your work, but I can't see it as using. They're paying homage, basically saying to you "Write more, I want more story." In most cases the show/film/book will not explore that tributary or is not continued at all. It's not using for their own glory, but trying to elevate your work. It all depends how the fan-fictioneer approaches the work and what respect they have for it.

Those who cannot do it justice, or worse, those who write tosh uncanonical rubbish or genuine Mary-Sue's I'm willing to feed to Joe's lawyer. But the ones who look only to praise and extend work that will never follow that tributary and have the skill to do it, I cannot see any offence or 'use'.

The Earl

 

[snooper]

... They're paying homage, basically saying to you "Write more, I want more story." ...

Sorry, but I disagree. They are saying "This is what you should have written, stupid."

 

[silverwhisper]

i write novels for a living....in order to keep the environment self-consistent i have an extensive set of background files containing full details of every character who has a name, when, where, and why they met every other character. there are also files for the chronology of all events, and for descriptions of every location (sometimes several if they change over time). these background files amount (so far) to roughly twice the volume of the actual books, but they increase exponentially as more books are added. now multiply that by the size of the stargate saga.

snooper: first, congratulations! i respect that you're able to make a living writing fiction: there are few enough who can claim that. however, i should note that while i'm sure every author has some notes, i think we can agree that their volume may be dramatically less or even more than yours, correct?

that is how much of someone else's hard work you are using without permission. added to that, you are causing changes to that background which are not planned, not recorded, and not necessarily consistent with the rest. since your work will be read, primarily, by people who are already stargate fans, you are distorting their view of the series.

um...snooper, a fan's is going to be informed by the work, more or less by definition. think of fan-fic as being like a band doing a cover of someone else's tune. in someone else's hands, that material will almost certainly treat of new and different things. perhaps it won't address themes or topics the original did well, but by the same token, based upon what is known to the fans (vs. what is known to the creator), when fan-fic is done well, it may address themes or topics the original did not.

now, that analogy is limited, b/c a cover is still making money off the work, whereas in fan-fic, that certainly isn't the case except for in some very specific circumstances (tribute anthologies, etc), but at least for the purposes of that point, i believe it's valid.

ed

 

[TheEarl]

Sorry, but I disagree. They are saying "This is what you should have written, stupid."

Not necessarily. I am toying with writing a fan-fiction for the 6th season of Angel. As Angel afficiandos will know, there is no and never will be a sixth season of Angel, due to it being dropped by its network. I'm not saying what Joss Whedon should have written, I'm saying what he might have written given the chance.

You have the character of fan-fictioneers all wrong. It's not replacing or criticising or attempting to one-up the original. It's attempting to build from it, to go in a direction that, whether from lack of funding, lack of energy or lack of studio backing, the original writers could not have taken.

I understand you feel strongly and I'm not trying to change your general opinion of fanfiction=evil. But you seem to think that fan-fictioneers are 'evil' as well, which just isn't the case. Silver's example captures it best - an amateur band doing a cover. Are they deliberately perverting the original?

The Earl

 

[oggbashan]

I don't think fan-fictioneers are evil.

I appreciate why they want to do it. My responses were and are about the legality of building on someone else's intellectual property. Legally it is a breach of copyright in the UK and you could face the copyright owner's lawyers - and you would lose.

There are risks particularly if you make family entertainment into erotica.

I have done erotic fan-fic of Swift's Gullivers Travels. That work is out of copyright so I am safe.

Og

 

[yui]

Not necessarily. I am toying with writing a fan-fiction for the 6th season of Angel.

The Earl

Do it! How would you handle the whole Fred/demon and Wesley thing? That has the potential to be an incredible storyline.

 

[Kirk482002]

I don't think fan-fictioneers are evil.

I appreciate why they want to do it. My responses were and are about the legality of building on someone else's intellectual property. Legally it is a breach of copyright in the UK and you could face the copyright owner's lawyers - and you would lose.

There are risks particularly if you make family entertainment into erotica.

I have done erotic fan-fic of Swift's Gullivers Travels. That work is out of copyright so I am safe.

Og

I think if Lit had to eliminate all the parodies of Gilligan's Island, Married with Children, and the Brady Bunch from the celebrities section, it would knock half of them out.

Removing all the Star Wars and Star Trek stories would take out another quarter.

After removing all the Brittany Spears stories would leave like 5 or 6 left.

...don't be too sure about that copywrite being elapesed. Some great great auntie might pop out of the woodwork and serve you with papers....

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Fan fics, or "Doujinshi" (="Amateur Work") as the Japanese call them, is a proud old genre where you dream on about your favourite characters. As long as you're not making any money from it, I think it's OK.


(Why, yes, I HAVE written 3 fan fics already, what's your point..?)

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Just an interesting cultural note on this subject: In Japan, there are doujinshi (fanfic type manga/comics). Doujinshi feature characters and/or stories from popular anime or manga that are used without the permission of the original author. For the most part, nobody sues and some of the doujinshi artists/manga are hugely popular. They make money selling these fanfics. Doujinshi typically specialize in putting popular characters in erotic situations. Many, many times they are yaoi (male on male) in nature. The funny part is that are published and sold alongside the originals.

Doujinshi may also be about RL people, like actors and singers.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

For what it's worth, J.K. Rowling has stated that she doesn't mind fanfic based on the Harry Potter world and seemed rather amused by the fact that others find her world worthy of fanfic.

...as long as it's not sexual.

 

[jfinn]

A lot of writers and TV/movie production companies take fanfic as a tribute. Svenska is right though, JK Rowlins draws the line at erotica with Harry Potter. She says it's because she's afraid children might inadvertantly stumble on an inappriate story and I imagine there's some truth to that. I don't know how successful she is though because there's tons of HP slash still on the net and more being written everyday.

Disney is more successful at stopping things. I don't know how they feel about their adult division but they don't allow anything clean or smutty to be written about their cartoons. Want to see a cease and desist letter? Just write something about Mickey and Minnie having a threesome with Goofy.

Jayne

 

[Just-Legal]

*grabs Svenska* I found a new home for Fanfic stuff... Capt, you might want to take a peek too: http://adultfan.nexcess.net/aff/main.php?list=47 (Capt, click on Home)

Fanfic... I'd love to be *able* to write it but apart from terrible Mary Sue's, I fail miserably, so I gave up trying. I am a proud Yaoi fangirl tho

 

[Guest]

...as long as it's not sexual.

____

It could be if Harry and company were all over 18.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

*grabs Svenska* I found a new home for Fanfic stuff... Capt, you might want to take a peek too: http://adultfan.nexcess.net/aff/main.php?list=47 (Capt, click on Home)

Fanfic... I'd love to be *able* to write it but apart from terrible Mary Sue's, I fail miserably, so I gave up trying. I am a proud Yaoi fangirl tho

Thank you!

 

[TheEarl]

Svenska and JL: That site's quite good, but not hugely forthcoming with feedback from the readers.

The Earl

 

[Kassiana]

I'm not on adultfanfiction.net under the name of Wolvertique. Honest.

 

[TheCaptain]

As the person who posted the original accusation of plagiarism on the "other" thread, may I make it clear that my objection is moral, rather than legalistic.

Your moral viewpoint on the issue is something I cannot hope to change or influence. I look at a show's ideas differently than I would look at the concepts and ideas of a fellow author (whom I wouldn't dream of ripping off in ANY way whatsoever, with or without the permission of the author), considering a TV show's world somewhat free reign, to a respectful extent to the originality. That's my view and you have your own, which I respect - I hope you can accept that I think differently.

I didn't mean any disrepect by starting up this thread because of your post on the other thread, either - I just wanted the feedback from others on the whole subject. And I have to admit that it stung a little!

You're doing something that I hope and pray that I'm good enough to do myself one day (writing for a living) and I wish you all the best of luck. Maybe it proves something about our differing philosophies towards writing, huh?

*grabs Svenska* I found a new home for Fanfic stuff... Capt, you might want to take a peek too: http://adultfan.nexcess.net/aff/main.php?list=47 (Capt, click on Home)

Fanfic... I'd love to be *able* to write it but apart from terrible Mary Sue's, I fail miserably, so I gave up trying. I am a proud Yaoi fangirl tho

Well, that one's a goldmine! Thanks a bunch, Just!

 

[JamesSD]

Nice

My own knock on Fan Fic is that it's usually the lowest form of writing. The characters and settings aren't created by the author, they're lifted from someone else, and the stories are usually nothing more than someone's wet dream of what they'd like to do to Britney Spears or Peter Parker. If I had to pick the one category on Literotica that contained the worst writing, it would be Fan Fic. That's just my personal opinion, of course.

And it's the wankers who spoil it for us all. The characters may not be our own, but it takes a huge amount of skill to stay canonical to someone else's work, ensuring that the characters stay true and to ape someone else's voice successfully so that your intrusion into that universe seems natural.

Lots of people write shit incest and shit romance stories too, yet Fan-fiction is always the category that gets judged on its shittest contributions, rather than its best.

Very nice point-counterpoint here. I actually agree with both of you (though not so much about the "lowest form of writing" bit). Good fanfic is extremely difficult to write. Thus most of it is crap. Romance and incest can both be somewhat formulaic and yet function ok.

Fanfic can be plagarism, but I don't think it inherently is. Especially erotic fanfic, which takes the characters and storylines in directions that mainstream media never could nor would. Authors do and should have a right to protect their characters, but at the same time there's a common sense factor involved. No one is going to confuse a story of the gay sex between Spike and Angel as being canonical. I suppose it's a complicated issue like most issues are.

 

[snooper]

... You're doing something that I hope and pray that I'm good enough to do myself one day (writing for a living) and I wish you all the best of luck. Maybe it proves something about our differing philosophies towards writing, huh? ...

I would make two comments here; they are meant to be helpful, and neither is sarcastic, so please do not take offence.

First, I feel your writing, as writing, is quite good enough to sell, though I am not sure there's much of a market in incest novels. What you seem to lack is breadth (by which I mean an ability to add "corroborative detail", especially of characters' motives), but that will come from bitter experience as you get older.

Second, You need to approach writing totally differently if you want to make it a career. You write about things which interest you, and because you enjoy writing. I write about things which will interest my readers, because I want to eat. The process is relatively simple - find out what sells, then write it. I chose BDSM because of the success of "top shelf" books in the bookstalls at railway stations - they always seemed to turn over stock quickly. As I have often said, I have never even spanked someone in sexual play, nor wanted to do so.

As to our differences of attitude, I have always respected other people's right to hold different opinions from mine.

<end of sermon; start of tongue-in-cheek>

I don't mind other people being wrong (i.e. not agreeing with me!) I just feel that I have a duty to help them by pointing out when they are wrong.

 

[Kassiana]

There are compendiums of "sponsored" fanfiction out there. Sometimes authors who have created a world, like Marion Zimmer Bradley's "Darkover," will invite others to write about their world. I have read many collections of MZB fanfic. I know Mercedes Lackey has also put out a collection or two of "invited" fanfic as well for her Bard world.

Some of it is quite good. Some is easily forgotten. Some is puerile garbage. Just like non fanfiction books.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I have a friend who writes Harry Potter fan fic. I so don't get it.