First officially genderless human being

[Etoile]

Well if it's all right with you, I prefer to make a leetle bit of distinction between "people who totally cannot be happy in their cis bodies" and "beautiful boys who buy silicone for fantasy and rebellion." One is, actually, a transexual, the other is a shemale. One is trying to fix themselves, the other is performing-- at a level of unprecedented sincerity, but it's still acting out.

I say this, of course, because the silicone I can buy doesn't cut it and it pisses me the hell off and makes me very bitchy. Because it's all about me.

But...how do you know someone's motivations? The ONLY example of "silicone for fantasy and rebellion" I know of is this guy. (There's also this guy, but he did it to win a $100k bet.) So...I mean...how do you know what any given performer has gone through to get where they are? Does doing porn indicate that someone COULD have been totally happy in a cis body but decided to go through such a radical change just for the money/fun/attention? What I'm getting at is that on an individual basis, I don't think we can know who is "fixing themselves" and who is "acting out" - just by looking at them in porn? After all, it could be said that ALL porn is acting out...

Okay, here is what I am trying to say: Does being unhappy in a cis body PRECLUDE someone from doing porn??

 

[Stella_Omega]

But...how do you know someone's motivations? The ONLY example of "silicone for fantasy and rebellion" I know of is this guy. (There's also this guy, but he did it to win a $100k bet.) So...I mean...how do you know what any given performer has gone through to get where they are? Does doing porn indicate that someone COULD have been totally happy in a cis body but decided to go through such a radical change just for the money/fun/attention? What I'm getting at is that on an individual basis, I don't think we can know who is "fixing themselves" and who is "acting out" - just by looking at them in porn? After all, it could be said that ALL porn is acting out...

Okay, here is what I am trying to say: Does being unhappy in a cis body PRECLUDE someone from doing porn??

Please don't think I am making any sort of judgement, I am just trying to sort out motivations-- of which there are a plethora. My judgement does not ride on whether or not someone is doing porn. I don't judge people for doing porn.

What I am sceptical of, is that anyone has the notion that a pair of implants makes you female.

Because I have never met an FTM, who genuinely was changing sexes, in order to fix a dysphoria that was intolerable to her, regardless of doing porn or anything else they might be doing, that didn't want to take the hormones. And these girls are not taking estrogen. And never have taken estrogen. You can tell by the mightymighty mouthwatering big dicks.

it's totally possible that some new trend I don't know about says that the fastest way to womanhood is silcone tits. I tend to see that as drag, working from the outside, and plenty of people do.

And I say that because I have been, at times, content with drag-- with packing and binding. But right now, I don't want to pack, because it's only on the outside. There is a difference in motivations-- dragging is satisfying if you are thinking about other people and how they react to you. What I feel right now is more interior.

There's just a difference. I'm not sure how to express it any further-- Pat Califia, who was the Goddess of Butch, gave me a role model for a long time, of a way to express my masculine self in the context of cis female body. She was like the most powerful successful butch, glorying in her power. Then-- whattayaknow-- she went into transition, and became Patrick anyway.

There's a difference.

 

[haurni]

A transsexual is a member of the sex they have transited to. transwomen are women. Transmen are men. They *might* be sex-workers or a general horndog, but they could have been that in their birth sex, right? The need to switch sexes is not for fetish reasons-- as Norrie found out. Like me-- my desire to have a dick-- or get my dick back, which is what it feels like-- has nothing to do with my gender identity, it's more about my sexual desires, which is why it's never been the all-pervading obsession that drives the rest of my life. Even though it ought to have been.

Correct me if I, in my naivete, misspeak myself, but in your case we're not talking about the 'born in the wrong body' thing, right? You're female but you don't feel that you are 'really' a man, you'd just like to have a penis? If I've understood you correctly, then your 'trans' experience is not the same as other trans people who are psychologically in the wrong body. You're just sexually in the wrong one, if you see my point.

If that's the case, I can sort of empathize with you because, though I know I am male and fairly comfortable with that fact, if I had a choice about it, I'd be female. And I think that's part of where my 'fetish' for lesbians comes from. I like women a lot, but I think I would rather relate to a woman from a female position than a male one. For me it's psychological/emotional as well as sexual. I dont cross-dress and I wouldn't know how to behave like a woman, either. Perhaps I see female-female interactions as less... antagonistic? I haven't figured it all out yet.

As i understand the use of the word 'shemale" around here, it refers to men with silicone boobs, and that works for me They are constructed fantasies, exactly, and have set themselves up for sexual commerce.

I'd agree with you in part there. Certainly the big dicks and big boobs are a constructed fantasy. Just like huge silicone boobs on women in straight porn. Or films that depict lesbians as just needing a hard dick. However...

I prefer to make a leetle bit of distinction between "people who totally cannot be happy in their cis bodies" and "beautiful boys who buy silicone for fantasy and rebellion." One is, actually, a transexual, the other is a shemale. One is trying to fix themselves, the other is performing-- at a level of unprecedented sincerity, but it's still acting out.

More precisely, how do you know that they aren't struggling through the process of finding themselves? I have seen exactly ONE example of a man who got breast implants for the fun of it, and that was on a body modification website. I highly doubt that anyone who is living as a woman and still whipping out her dick for porn is NOT struggling with identity.

This was sort of my thought. While a lot of people will do strange things to themselves for shock value (is tongue-splitting done for any other reason? really?) it seems like a rather extreme length to go just to make a buck. I mean, if you have an 8" dick you can do straight or gay porn without all the hassle. I have some difficulty believing that anyone would go through all that, but I guess if they've fallen for the same constructed... value system? then they might do so.

This sounds like invalidating their experiences. You referred to shemales as "men with silicone boobs" but that sounds derogatory to me, in a parallel way to what some fetishists call "the best of both worlds." Both statements say that the MTF people who choose to have top surgery but not bottom surgery are nothing more than what their bodies define.

I think that Stella is saying that a 'shemale' is not the same as a MTF trans.

As a personal aside, I hate silicone (or at least when it's obvious to me). I would rather see smaller, natural-looking breasts and 5 - 7" on the shemales I look at. I'd rather look at real-looking people. Now I like shemales because I like women and I like cock. And - not to be offensive to anyone, Etoile - 'best of both worlds' describes exactly how I feel about it. I hope I'm not at all putting down or invalidating the experiences of trans people, which I believe is a different matter entirely. We are discussing a fetish here, not a gender-identity issue.

I guess we need to distinguish between several different things here - performance, gender identity and sexual orientation among them. As with any human behaviour, it's multifocal. Like cross-dressing. Some people may do it to perform, some for the fetish aspect, and some because they truly wish to be the opposite sex.

Are you really a neuroscientist, retired? I wanna talk to you! really! I am gobbling up David Buller and Jaak Panksepp at the moment-- I do research assistance for an anthro guy, and myself am kinda sociology/activist/novelist oriented.

PhD in Psych with a specialization in neurosci. I did some research on brain mechanisms of learning and memory, so I know a bit about neurons. But I was more focused on the bits and pieces than the whole picture, so you're on the other end of the reductionist - wholist continuum from me.

But real quick, while it's obvious that gender orientation and identity are extremely complex, what with the collision between biology and culture and random imprinting factors... fetish is a bit different and (I think) much more simplistic. More Pavlovian-ish.

Based on (some of) my own experience, I agree that it can certainly be reduced to conditioning in certain cases.

 

[haurni]

Just to expand a bit on my previous post,

Please don't think I am making any sort of judgement, I am just trying to sort out motivations-- of which there are a plethora. My judgement does not ride on whether or not someone is doing porn. I don't judge people for doing porn.

What I am sceptical of, is that anyone has the notion that a pair of implants makes you female.

Because I have never met an FTM, who genuinely was changing sexes, in order to fix a dysphoria that was intolerable to her, regardless of doing porn or anything else they might be doing, that didn't want to take the hormones. And these girls are not taking estrogen. And never have taken estrogen. You can tell by the mightymighty mouthwatering big dicks.

it's totally possible that some new trend I don't know about says that the fastest way to womanhood is silcone tits. I tend to see that as drag, working from the outside, and plenty of people do.

It's basically about motivations. Why people do what they do. Why people are oriented the way they are. Why they're sexually attracted to who they are. (to whom?)

The 'genuine' trans is the dysphoric, AFAIK. Someone who feels they were born in the wrong body and wants their physical gender to be consonant with their psychological one. Their sexual orientation is irrelevant. I know a girl who is a preop MTF and lives as a woman. She is sexually attracted to guys and also likes gay porn, so I'd say she was a gay TV if she didnt also want to trade in the cock for a pussy. This girl believes she should have been a woman. Whether such a person ends up straight or gay after transitioning I'll leave out of the discussion.

Then we have the... what would you call it? sexual trans? Someone who is in the correct body psychologically but not sexually. If I could change to female by snapping my fingers, I'd do it in a second. And I'd be a total slut (with a preference for women). In fact, given a choice of being a female or a shemale, I'd pick the former. However, I'm not dissatisfied with my physical gender so I'm not motivated to go under the knife to 'correct' anything.

So what, then, is the motivation of the shemale? Is it fetish? Extreme drag? Partial MTF who decided to 'stop along the way'? Or is it a guy who simply (and strongly) wants some part of the experience of being female (wearing the clothes or walking the walk or whatever) without giving up his ability to put his dick in various holes?

 

[HarlotMinx]

I fell into the same trap that Minx did, when she ascribed values to the different quantifications and (perceived) motivations for cross-dressing.

Oh, I don't know, I still hold by what I said.... if anything more so. When I see someone who is cross dressing or fulfilling transvestic fetishes I do wonder if their motives are healthy. Now I also recognize that I can't know what those motives are without asking and their are in fact healthy motives for the expression... lots of healthy motives actually but their are also very unhealthy motives and I don't think it's wrong for me to question those motives.

For example, thailand has the worlds largest transexual population (it's estimated at 10,000-100,000 mtfs) and no small part of that community transitions for the money made in porn, prostitution, or erotic dancing. Now mind you, not all of them do, but a decent number transition for that express purpose. Now I'm not even saying that that's bad, in the thai culture it makes sense, it's a revenue source for people who need it badly. Now if someone were to transition for that reason in america you wouldn't find a single gender therapist in the US that would sign off on that. It's most definitely valid to look at peoples motives and reasons, and the effects.

Etoile is most definitely correct to say that many shemales transition and have to deal with sorting out their transition and identity and deserve respect on that front. However Stella is equally correct in her dislike of them, they create an environment in which they are shaping peoples opinions about what transexual means and in many cases people see porn and assume that all transexuals are modeled on what they see and the porn stars know that, it's how they make their money. Now, I'm not condemning porn or saying that transexual porn shouldn't exist but I do think it's fair to hold shemales responsible for the results of their porn. Now their is complexity added in that most shemales are from brazil and Thailand with different cultural values than america and it's not really realistic to hold inhabitants of another culture to the morality codes of a society they do not willingly choose to participate in.

Back to my first paragraph, when I look at someone with a transvestic fetish I wonder about their motives. Their are most definitely bad motives or indicators to unhealthy views. Like, if they are a bit extreme on the makeup or clothing, is it because that's just what does it for them or is it that they really view women. Do people who exhibit transvestic fetishes do so out of a desire to escape their masculinity and if so is it that they aren't comfortable with their masculinity or is it that they have to re frame a possible bisexual homosexual encounter in a manner that makes it acceptable because the idea of being with a man as a man is unacceptable. Do they do it because they are uncomfortable expressing traditionally thought female traits in day to day life and bottle up that part of their personality until they can express it in the extreme in a safe environment.

In reality I'm not just limiting my questioning to transvestites, i'de ask the same of a transexual, or someone who participates in BDSM, or anyone really who exhibits a desire that is not found in society at large. Not out of some desire to conform everyone but more out of curiosity at what exactly about their life made them show an interest that differs from the norm, sometimes their are good reasons and sometimes bad. God knows I've seen people who are into bdsm or transitioning for very much the wroooooong reasons, some that come to mind involve a bad way of handling past abuses, self repression, existing mental illness, self loathing, and escapism. Now clearly not everyone or even the majority of said communities are doing it for these reasons but for example, the trans community will have a higher percentage of people with existing mental illness or history of childhood abuse (unrelated directly to the transition) than you would see in the mainstream. Now it could be that it's just more apparent in the trans culture or a whole other host of reasons but it outlines the importance at looking at motives.

 

[HarlotMinx]

And never have taken estrogen. You can tell by the mightymighty mouthwatering big dicks.

Estrogen/spiro doesn't decrease penis size, or in most cases doesn't. It'll give you impotence and affect your ability to achieve erection but frankly, the dirty secret of the porn industry is viagra and yes the shemales on porn use it.

it's totally possible that some new trend I don't know about says that the fastest way to womanhood is silcone tits.

That is more that in many cases men really see women as what's on their chest. men on average are more likely to have sex with a large breasted woman that they find on the whole less appealing than a girl they find beautiful but flat chested.

I tend to see that as drag, working from the outside, and plenty of people do.

It is REALLY rare for a dragqueen to have implants and most are hostile to those who do. drag queens/kings tend to see themselves as gender performers. Drag Queens aren't necessarily trying to portray women (hence the dramatic outfits, makeup, and hair) so much as they are trying to tie what it means to be male/female in a knot. Many queens and kings are people perfectly comfortable in their birth sex and view drag a bit like any performance art. Actually i find that non gender queer drag queens and kings tend to have some of the most healthiest approaches to gender identity and definition for their gender. It very much is an external display but it's one most men and women wouldn't make because of internal hangups.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Oh. My. God, you guys!

There is so much MEAT here, it's going to take me all day to get all of my yeahs and nays and answers to questions and new questions written down!

Just a couple of the easy ones;

I guess we need to distinguish between several different things here - performance, gender identity and sexual orientation among them. As with any human behaviour, it's multifocal. Like cross-dressing. Some people may do it to perform, some for the fetish aspect, and some because they truly wish to be the opposite sex.

And-- this is really important to remember-- Almost everyone has more than one motivation. I can only speak for myself, but in my life, my perceptions of gender performance, gender identity and sexual orientation have been on the fluid side. My ideas of what I mean by man and woman have evolved. What I can tolerate, in relation to my dysphoria, changes off and on, depending on what I have that distracts me or makes me discontented in other areas of my life-- I am very aware of this, and dammit i promised myself I'd keep this short!

Estrogen/spiro doesn't decrease penis size, or in most cases doesn't. It'll give you impotence and affect your ability to achieve erection but frankly, the dirty secret of the porn industry is viagra and yes the shemales on porn use it.

I NEVER can remember that!

Drag Queens aren't necessarily trying to portray women (hence the dramatic outfits, makeup, and hair) so much as they are trying to tie what it means to be male/female in a knot.

I wonder if this is more true now than it was back in, say 78-84, when i was around more of them? I know it's true of the few that I know right now.

Many queens and kings are people perfectly comfortable in their birth sex and view drag a bit like any performance art.

Oh man, i totally agree with this, at lest of the kings I know, who are proud to be women. And in fact, this is why I don't do drag onstage right now-- because I do not feel convincing, because I cannot convince myself.

However Stella is equally correct in her dislike of them, they create an environment in which they are shaping peoples opinions about what transexual means and in many cases people see porn and assume that all transexuals are modeled on what they see and the porn stars know that, it's how they make their money. Now, I'm not condemning porn or saying that transexual porn shouldn't exist but I do think it's fair to hold shemales responsible for the results of their porn.

What I dislike, is the conclusions that men come to-- that, IMO, they are encouraged to come to, that is marketed to them-- as the result of porn, and it isn't only about transsexuals, but about women, and also about men. But tha's a whole other discussion, isn't it?.

XOXOX my darlings, I can't wait to read more!

 

[lightsaver]

I still think Norrie resembles Ally Sheedy. Has anyone seen them in the same place at the same time?

 

[haurni]

If there were ever a place to inquire into the motivations of men who might become shemales, this forum is probably it - I think a new thread with a poll may be in order here.

I'm thinking something along the line of "If money and social considerations (e.g. hostility, rejection, loss of job &/or friends &/or family) were not a concern, would you become a shemale (defined here as a female body with a penis instead of a vagina) or a full transsexual and, if so, why?" with a variety of options - "for kicks or money", "it turns me on", "it better fits my image of who I am", etc. I respectfully submit the actual wording to those who know more about this topic than I do.

Perhaps we could attempt to tap an entire range of MTF fluidity from cross-dressing to full trans.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Huarni, that's a good idea-- for someone who's interested in MTF.

I'm sympathetic, but selfish, frankly, and coming from the other direction.

 

[haurni]

Understandable. I suggested it mainly as means to obtain some insight into the motivations of a group that was perhaps negatively affecting the perception of MTF trans - and, by extension, all trans people. I've always enjoyed asking questions & gathering data.

I liked the old avatar, Stella, but this one is great. A totally different mood, but great.

 

[HarlotMinx]

You know stella, that new profile pic... i swear it almost looks like johnny depp, the eyebrows are a bit too sculpted, different haircut, and the lips are a bit wider but I swear their is a resemblance... you also look Hispanic in it... maybe you are and I just didn't notice.

http://widdleshamrock.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/hothunk-johnny-depp2.jpg

 

[Stella_Omega]

You know stella, that new profile pic... i swear it almost looks like johnny depp, the eyebrows are a bit too sculpted, different haircut, and the lips are a bit wider but I swear their is a resemblance... you also look Hispanic in it... maybe you are and I just didn't notice.

http://widdleshamrock.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/hothunk-johnny-depp2.jpg

Jeeze, way to flatter someone right out of countenance! I worship the guy, I'll tell you that. He's one of my male role models. And he's got to have a "Portrait" hidden in an attic somewhere, I'm so sure. Or maybe Jack Sparrow did find that Fountain of Youth!

No Hispanic in me that I know of, honestly...

 

[HarlotMinx]

Jeeze, way to flatter someone right out of countenance! I worship the guy, I'll tell you that. He's one of my male role models. And he's got to have a "Portrait" hidden in an attic somewhere, I'm so sure. Or maybe Jack Sparrow did find that Fountain of Youth!

No Hispanic in me that I know of, honestly...

Well the look works for you, I think that's the one thing I always envy FTMs for, something about the mix of female and male features makes them look like they're always in their 20's and early 30's. I mean seriously, based on the profile pic I'd place you at 22-23 as a guy. I don't think I'd really want to be male but damn, if I could just stay 2o something for the next 20 or so years I'd be bottling it and selling it.

 

[Night_Jasmine]

The transgenders I know are MtF and if someone offered the money right now, all of them would more than likely jump at the chance to have the surgery to make the outside appear what they are mentally and spiritually - female.

I think my idea of transvestites are more to do with fetish than gender ID issues. They like how women's clothes make them feel and look..but would they do the reassignment? Probably not.

 

[HarlotMinx]

The transgenders I know are MtF and if someone offered the money right now, all of them would more than likely jump at the chance to have the surgery to make the outside appear what they are mentally and spiritually - female.

I think my idea of transvestites are more to do with fetish than gender ID issues. They like how women's clothes make them feel and look..but would they do the reassignment? Probably not.

Just because they don't want to transition doesn't make it not a gender issue. Some might not want to actually be female but find that they repress normal gender characteristics that might be considered female by society, or they may not be comfortable having sex with men and still identifying as male (basically, the idea that the only way to have sex with a man is as a woman), another option is they may just not be comfortable with a male gender and while they're not female they find they're caught between genders(this would be a cisgender who sexualizes cross dressing). All of those examples are where someone could show transvestic fetishes due to a gender cause related issue and in fact all of these examples do happen.

 

[Stella_Omega]

it just pisses me off, because any man with a passing familiarity with his butt knows he has an innie as well as an outie. I'd be getting real busy with my innie plenty of the time, but-- I want my outie!

 

[haurni]

At least you have retained a sense of humour.

 

[HarlotMinx]

I want my outie!

Belly button sex ftw!

 

[haurni]

Wonder what chicks with dicks would think about some of these guys?

I wouldn't mind hearing from someone like Gi_Venus about the issues we've discussed in this thread and on your comment (above) in the "What is your opinion of Chicks with Dicks?" thread.

 

[Stella_Omega]

At least you have retained a sense of humour.

Yep-- essential.


Because for most of my life, I've watched MTF's get better and better services, while FTM was simply inconceivable until about fifteen years ago, and is finally getting somewhere now... after my prime.

Which, you know. Matters.

 

[HarlotMinx]

Yep-- essential.


Because for most of my life, I've watched MTF's get better and better services, while FTM was simply inconceivable until about fifteen years ago, and is finally getting somewhere now... after my prime.

Which, you know. Matters.

Well to be fair that has nothing to do with any type of preferential treatment so much as the difficulty of making a functioning penis and the lack of patients to develop the treatment on.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I wouldn't mind hearing from someone like Gi_Venus about the issues we've discussed in this thread and on your comment (above) in the "What is your opinion of Chicks with Dicks?" thread.

Um no, not GI Venus, that would be insulting her through misunderstanding her gender.

She's a transsexual. She doesn't have a dick anymore (no matter which side of the op she is on, or ever will be)
So don't do it, okay?

Me?
I cannot tell you how personally I take that thread-- EVEN THOUGH I know I shouldn't.

Well to be fair that has nothing to do with any type of preferential treatment so much as the difficulty of making a functioning penis and the lack of patients to develop the treatment on.

What difference would me being fair make? The outcome for me is still the same.

 

[haurni]

Um no, not GI Venus, that would be insulting her through misunderstanding her gender.

She's a transsexual. She doesn't have a dick anymore (no matter which side of the op she is on, or ever will be)
So don't do it, okay?

It was merely a suggestion if you felt that she might be able to offer some insight. I'm aware that her situation is difficult, which is why I didn't feel it was appropriate to address her directly.

I cannot tell you how personally I take that thread-- EVEN THOUGH I know I shouldn't.

I know your opinion of it too. But is it possible you might be reacting on behalf of the wrong group? I'm still trying to figure out the motivations of the 'shemales' - they seem to be basically bi guys who are into extreme body mods in the service of their fetish. Which, I think we can all acknowledge, is different from a MTF trans. IF you are objecting to those topics on the grounds that they are harmful or derogatory to all trans people then your ire makes sense. And I get the sense this is your particular concern.

On the other hand, if you are objecting to the 'fakeness' of the construct, or the mentality (or mental capacity ) of those who enjoy that sort of thing, etc., apart from any effect it may have on the plight of 'true' trans people, that's a different matter.

Not a dig at you, Stella. I just have a high GLBT-noobness quotient and a desire to understand what's going on. I hope I'm not sticking my foot in my mouth and offending anyone (I'll consider other people's feet, though, or other body parts).

 

[Stella_Omega]

Well, two thing; one is that I am a chick who should HAVE a goddamned dick. And I DO get pissed off about it. PISSSSSEDDD OFFFFF. Sense of humor regardless.

And the other is just the sheer rediculousness of what they are talking about; not "real" shemales, not MTF's, but celebrity women.

And the parade one after another of guys who would like to buy, so to speak, one at the corner store. Which I can't blame any single man for-- I'd be heading down to that store myself-- but... the quantity, yanno.