Georgia State Superintendent of Schools on evolution: more Republican strangeness

[JazzManJim]

You are consistent, Jim. Consistently wrong , of course, but you do stick by your guns regardless of how it makes those you support look. It's the main reason I like you so much (well, that and your handcuffs ).

How does it make those I support look?

I don't like the President's spending policies. I never have. It's the largest reason I didn't vote for him in 2000 and even joined another political party. Right now, though, there are issues that are far more important to me where I do agree with him and I don't want to leave those things to the men aspiring to the office.

I like being consistent. It means that I'll never be accused seriously of hypocrisy. Besides, I like giving people the reason to think that conservatives are actually decent and principled people because they see me as one.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

The whole system has gone insane.

Yet another argument for vouchers.

Ishmael

Educator accused of taking vouchers

By Dave Weber | Sentinel Staff Writer
Posted January 30, 2004





An Ocala man was arrested Thursday on a charge of pocketing state money intended to pay the private-school tuition of poor children under one of Gov. Jeb Bush's prized school-voucher programs.

James Kirk Isenhour, 56, chairman of the Silver Archer Foundation, was charged with grand theft in the first degree and booked into the Marion County Jail. Prosecutors say he took $268,125 in voucher money during 2003 and spent it for other uses.

The money was to have financed a year in private school for 75 students. Silver Archer is one of several private organizations designated around the state to distribute money collected from corporations to pay for private school tuition.

Florida law gives businesses credit on their corporate income taxes for contributing to the scholarships.

Isenhour also runs Cambridge Academy, an online school in Marion County where authorities said he was arrested Thursday afternoon.

Bush and other state education officials have championed the voucher program through months of bad publicity that included allegations about Silver Archer and disclosure that money had gone to a Tampa Islamic school founded by a former university professor accused of leading a terrorist organization.

On Thursday they labeled Isenhour a bad apple and said the voucher program would be stronger for the discovery that the money was misspent.

"Accountability is important," said Bush spokeswoman Alia Faraj. "We are confident the scholarship accountability measures in place and proposed will go a long way toward preventing this type of situation from ever occurring again."

Education Commissioner Jim Horne cut off money to Silver Archer last summer when questions arose about missing money. Since then, he tightened record-keeping on schools in the voucher program and urged other reforms.

"We urge the Legislature to act swiftly to strengthen this program, which provides unprecedented educational opportunities to thousands of low-income children," Frances Marine, spokesperson for the state Department of Education, said after the arrest.

But Democratic Sen. Ron Klein of Delray Beach, a chief critic of the voucher program, said he was amazed that Bush, Horne and other "stubborn" Republican leaders defended the vouchers while handing them out with few strings attached.

"They have continued to protect that program for two years until we get somebody indicted criminally, "Klein said. "Maybe this will send a signal that we need more accountability on the people who are running this program, the financing and student performance."

One big complaint about the voucher program is that students who are sent to private schools with state funding are not required to take the Florida Comprehensive Assessment Test, which Bush and the Legislature have used to judge performance of public schools.

Tom Gallagher, Florida's chief financial officer, issued a scathing review of the tax-credit voucher program in a report last month. He pointed to lack of controls, poor management and little accountability in the program, which has a $50 million budget to provide tuition for more than 12,000 students from low-income families.

"Mr. Isenhour should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for denying parents the opportunity to pursue better education for their children," Gallagher said in a statement.

The corporate scholarships are one of three Florida voucher programs. About 600 students from public schools that earned failing grades from the state two years out of four are eligible for "opportunity scholarships," while an additional 12,000 children with disabilities receive McKay Scholarships.

Isenhour was released from jail Thursday evening after posting bail of $10,000. According to Florida Department of Law Enforcement records, he was arrested between 1987 and 1990 on a list of charges that included fraud, racketeering and drug-trafficking, but Isenhour has never been convicted of a crime.

He could not be reached for comment. An answering machine at Cambridge Academy said all of the school's telephone operators were busy.

 

[sigh]

How does it make those I support look?

What I meant by that is that you'll say what you feel, even when it makes the Republican leadership look bad. You did that in another thread a while back about Bush's support for a marriage amendment. Other conservatives in that thread were trying to twist out justifications for such federal intervention in private lives, but you alone among them stood up and said it was wrong.

I like that.

But hey. We're not disagreeing, so shaddup and tie me up, okay? (It's not often you get me so drunk and wanton, so you'd better hurry up and take advantage of me while you can.)


oops...better yet, I just got Carol on the line and she's coming over. She senses the opportunity too, so I guess you're out of luck (so sorry) because she's a lot closer than you are and I need relief fast.

Gads, I sound like such a slut, and I don't even give a damn. Will she respect me in the morning?

 

[RobDownSouth]

Dumbing down the curriculum??? How much of the new Performance Standards have you actually spent the time reading?

http://www.glc.k12.ga.us/passwd/trc/ttools/attach/curriculum/socstud/WorldHistory.pdf

High School World History.
Proposed changes discard anything and everything prior to 1500.

Ancient Greece? Gone

Ancient Rome? Gone

Middle ages? Gone

Hell, Columbus doesn't discover America according to this curriculum.

Tell me that's not dumbing down.

(And yes, I am aware that pre-1500 history is covered in middle school, but you cannot convince me that a 7th grade mind can adequately comprehend Homer's Illiad, much less the nuances of the Renaissance or the Restoration).

Look, I agree with you that the QCC as it currently stands is far too overbroad, but I truly think that once you strip the 10 dollar words out of the proposed changes, what your left with is a standard set of 100 or so facts that will be drilled via rote into children. I saw this in Florida public schools for 3 years. I'm not championing the status quo by any means, I just think the overhaul approach wont work.

I think the solution lies in evolutionary change not revolutionary change. Ooops, there's that evolution word again.

Oh and a side note to JazzManJim, this is a serious issue with me. You'll forgive me if I don't engage in your usual passive-aggressive nonsense tonight.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

And just perhaps the removal of the word "evolution" was an effort to remove what is often a loaded term from the program. That way, you don't have to scuffle over one word while still being able to teach a solid science program which still involves evolution. It was a niftly little solution to a problem.

How is evolution a loaded term? How is teaching evolution or using the word evoluation a problem?

 

[JazzManJim]

(And yes, I am aware that pre-1500 history is covered in middle school, but you cannot convince me that a 7th grade mind can adequately comprehend Homer's Illiad, much less the nuances of the Renaissance or the Restoration).

Oh and a side note to JazzManJim, this is a serious issue with me. You'll forgive me if I don't engage in your usual passive-aggressive nonsense tonight.

No? You'll forgive me if I disagree, having studied both of them in junior high school as I did.

And you don't think it's a serious issue with me? Don't be silly, man. This is a deadly serious issue ot me. I just prefer to believe mg, who is a very good educator and deeply engaged in the issue over you, who just got there.

 

[lustforlife74]

This is sad it makes the South look stupid, again. I've met some of the most intelligent down to earth people in the South.

What we need in this country is to stop believing a 2000 year old piece of fiction and start dealing with reality.

 

[morninggirl5]

http://www.glc.k12.ga.us/passwd/trc/ttools/attach/curriculum/socstud/WorldHistory.pdf

High School World History.
Proposed changes discard anything and everything prior to 1500.

Ancient Greece? Gone

Ancient Rome? Gone

Middle ages? Gone

Hell, Columbus doesn't discover America according to this curriculum.

Tell me that's not dumbing down.

(And yes, I am aware that pre-1500 history is covered in middle school, but you cannot convince me that a 7th grade mind can adequately comprehend Homer's Illiad, much less the nuances of the Renaissance or the Restoration).

Look, I agree with you that the QCC as it currently stands is far too overbroad, but I truly think that once you strip the 10 dollar words out of the proposed changes, what your left with is a standard set of 100 or so facts that will be drilled via rote into children. I saw this in Florida public schools for 3 years. I'm not championing the status quo by any means, I just think the overhaul approach wont work.

I think the solution lies in evolutionary change not revolutionary change. Ooops, there's that evolution word again.

Oh and Jim, this is a serious issue with me. You'll forgive me if I don't engage in your usual passive-aggressive nonsense tonight.

You're right, some of the content was moved down into the younger grades. Middle schoolers today are much more savvy today. Spending more time on concepts allows for much, much more than rote learning. Educational research shows that conceptual understanding takes much longer than rote learning. Conceptual understanding doesn't happen when you cover the history of the world in 180 days. You cannot honestly believe that any teacher can truly teach World or American History in one school year and adequately cover all the concepts.

Look at where the Standards came from. This wasn't done based on somebody in Georgia.

The Math Standards are based on the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics benchmarks.

The K-3 standards for reading, writing, and conventions will be the Primary Literary Standards (Reading and Writing Grade by Grade) published by the National Council for Education and the Economy (NCEE) and the University of Pittsburgh.

The Social Studies Standards are based on several states who had the highest scores on the Social Studies portions of the NAEP (National Assessment of Educational Progress). I don't remember all of them but Virginia, California, and Texas were included.

Science standards are based on the Science Literacy Standards of the American Association for the Advancement of Science.


I fail to see any revolutionary change in the new curriculum. What i see is a true curriculum.


I'm curious, what county do you live in? There are only 2 counties that i can think of that won't be changing much in their curriculums for this change. Those 2 already have written curriculums that are Standards based and include the high expectations in the Performance Standards.

 

[lustforlife74]

I do have to question the fact that Greek and Roman History and Philosophy isn't taught in High School. Not to mention a Philosohphy 101 course covering Socrates to at least Hume, if not Nietzsche. I'm not even going to go into not teaching Henry Miller or any of Lost Generation other then Hemingway and you will never see A Movable Feast on a High School reading list.

16-18 year olds can undersand and relate to this. This is what they do. Try to have fun, be it getting drunk, high, or laid.

You're right, some of the content was moved down into the younger grades. Middle schoolers today are much more savvy today. Spending more time on concepts allows for much, much more than rote learning. Educational research shows that conceptual understanding takes much longer than rote learning. Conceptual understanding doesn't happen when you cover the history of the world in 180 days. You cannot honestly believe that any teacher can truly teach World or American History in one school year and adequately cover all the concepts.

Look at where the Standards came from. This wasn't done based on somebody in Georgia.

The Math Standards are based on the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics benchmarks.

The K-3 standards for reading, writing, and conventions will be the Primary Literary Standards (Reading and Writing Grade by Grade) published by the National Council for Education and the Economy (NCEE) and the University of Pittsburgh.

The Social Studies Standards are based on several states who had the highest scores on the Social Studies portions of the NAEP (National Assessment of Educational Progress). I don't remember all of them but Virginia, California, and Texas were included.

Science standards are based on the Science Literacy Standards of the American Association for the Advancement of Science.


I fail to see any revolutionary change in the new curriculum. What i see is a true curriculum.


I'm curious, what county do you live in? There are only 2 counties that i can think of that won't be changing much in their curriculums for this change. Those 2 already have written curriculums that are Standards based and include the high expectations in the Performance Standards.

 

[zipman]

You didn't tell me I was pretty. Now I'm gonna pout.

Actually, what you missed was my point about the flip-flop of the Republican party in the last few years. I know my thread title led you all astray, and that's cool, I take responsibility for that, but really it's about hypocrisy and pandering to special groups. And taking advantage of a moment in power to cram a Republican version of the American dream down people's throats when their whole political history has been to decry using federal powers in such ways.

Not discounting a thing that mg-5 has to say on this (and I'm glad to hear she thinks things will improve) but taking out a word while teaching the concept is no better than the liberal PC crap right-wingers have been going crazy about for what seems like forever.

People not standing by their convictions. That's what pisses me off.

(Or at least I think that's what it was about. I've started in on a bottle of Bailey's over ice, and things are getting a bit fuddled. Suddenly, Injun is making sense!)

I think he may have missed that point because there were more valid ones to be made. Ishmael is right that this isn't a "Republican" issue, it's a religious one and regardless of party, that's what's driving this issue.

MG5 - The stupidity of this issue is that they specifically wanted the word "evolution" removed while still teaching the concept. While the rest of the curriculum may indeed need an overhaul, it was the issue over the word that has made this controversial.

Even Jimmy Carter voiced a strong *yet non partisan) condemnation of it.

 

[James G 5]

OTOH, he's worlds better than anything the other party has to offer on the two issues I think are far and away the most pressing right now - national security and international terrorism.

You mean the 2 straw men he's using to prop up his administration's attempts to make us the most hated country in the world and cause even MORE terror & killing to be directed at us in the name of lining his cohort's pockets?
"Those who would trade their liberty for security will find they have neither"

 

[James G 5]

Dumbing down the curriculum???

In this particular instance, it would seem to me that removing the actual NAME of the concept you're teaching DOES amount to dumbing down for political reasons, as it will result in talking AROUND things
"Well, things came about because life forms went thru gradual changes.."
"Teacher, you mean they EVOLVED?"
"Hush Timmy, we can't say THAT nasty word"

I would imagine this will lead to a wee bit of confusion among the tykes

 

[James G 5]

Science standards are based on the Science Literacy Standards of the American Association for the Advancement of Science.

Nice that you say "based on" since the AAAS uses the proper names to identify the material in their standards

 

[lustforlife74]

I think he may have missed that point because there were more valid ones to be made. Ishmael is right that this isn't a "Republican" issue, it's a religious one and regardless of party, that's what's driving this issue.

MG5 - The stupidity of this issue is that they specifically wanted the word "evolution" removed while still teaching the concept. While the rest of the curriculum may indeed need an overhaul, it was the issue over the word that has made this controversial.

Even Jimmy Carter voiced a strong *yet non partisan) condemnation of it.

This is a religious/PC issue. It is rediculous. Political Correctness and Religion both try to infuluence human action though words. Niether will succeed. Words are not as powerful as they are made out to be. When was the last time a word put food on the table? Other then when someone has the connections to make that word heard.

Fuck 'em. Reality is the answer. Evidence. Creation has much less evidence, then evolution. How can someone with an analytical mind even fathom that the world is only 5000 years old? I mean carbon dating, tree ring dating, etc. There is no solid evidence for the world being created in seven days. The holes in this theory are worse then the holes in evolutionary theory.

Never believe the Bullshit.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Well, the Atlanta Constitution this morning further exposes the political machinations surrounding the evolution controversy. It seems that Superintendent Cox's handpicked board essentially adopted the nationally approved standard curriculum intact....with the exception of standards relating to evolution.

This is getting more political with each passing day.

Rather than simply "do away with the term 'evolution' and teach the concept", it appears that the draft proposal simply drops five of the ten basic concepts relating to evolution.

Discarded concepts:
1. Present-day species developed from earlier, distinctly different species.
2. Natural selection provides for variation in heritable characteristics.
3. Natural selection providing a scientific explanation for the history of life on Earth through fossil records
4. Life on Earth is thought to have begun as simple, one-celled organisms about 4 billion years ago.
5. Evolution builds on what already exists, so the more variety there is, the more there can be in the future.

I like what a conservative rabbi said about this gutting: ""This is an effort to force the public to conform to the ideas and comfort level of only one segment of the population: those that are biblical literalist".

Amen.

 

[Guest]

 

[RobDownSouth]

Hey Lioness, did you see where the University of Georgia announced it would no longer accept AP Biology examination credit from Georgia public high school graduates if the evolution curriculum was adopted as proposed?

 

[Guest]

 

[JazzManJim]

You mean the 2 straw men he's using to prop up his administration's attempts to make us the most hated country in the world and cause even MORE terror & killing to be directed at us in the name of lining his cohort's pockets?
"Those who would trade their liberty for security will find they have neither"

Damn. I kep forgetting that there's no such thing as international terrorism and that whole 9/11 thing was just a Hollywood movie production.

 

[Marxist]

Ms. Fat Face is a politician pure and simple. Her press conference makes Kansans look smart.

I'm gonna move to Mississippi where these things aren't even in debate.

 

[sigh]

I think he may have missed that point because there were more valid ones to be made. Ishmael is right that this isn't a "Republican" issue, it's a religious one and regardless of party, that's what's driving this issue.

MG5 - The stupidity of this issue is that they specifically wanted the word "evolution" removed while still teaching the concept. While the rest of the curriculum may indeed need an overhaul, it was the issue over the word that has made this controversial.

Even Jimmy Carter voiced a strong *yet non partisan) condemnation of it.

zip, to understand the context of my response, you have to go back a few exchanges between Jim and me. I made a tongue-in-cheek remark about how this thread strayed from my original intent and Jim asked what what point he'd missed and hadn't addressed from my original post. So then the quote of mine you referred to was a response to his question.

And since he was asking for my point of view, in reference to the post I used to initiate this thread, I felt it was appropriate for me to respond. Who better knows my intent than me? But if you think there's a more valid point to be made, that's cool too. Don't be shy. Please make it. I'd sincerely like to hear it.

But as for you and Ishmael thinking this has nothing to do with politics, well that's just ridiculous. If these sorts of issues were religious only, why have we been talking about abortion for thirty-odd years, and why did GW feel a need to make a policy statement on stem cells at the very start of his term in office? Of course this is a political issue. To think otherwise is pure denial.

What's terribly ironic about it is that the change of language regarding evolution is as Politically Correct a move as any ever suggested by liberals. What else can you call changing a perfectly valid word for the sole purpose of mollifying an objecting segment of society?

And therein lies my point (once again). The Republican party of today has shown an eager willingness to advance their cause by utilizing the very tools they've been complaining about for years. And if you don't think that's hypocrisy, please explain why not.

 

[JazzManJim]

If these sorts of issues were religious only, why have we been talking about abortion for thirty-odd years, and why did GW feel a need to make a policy statement on stem cells at the very start of his term in office?

This is a whole other issue.

 

[sigh]

This is a whole other issue.

No it isn't. Hey, this is MY thread, dammit. Don't I get to say what I was talking about?

mutter, mutter, grumble, grumble

 

[RobDownSouth]

Damn. I kep forgetting that there's no such thing as international terrorism and that whole 9/11 thing was just a Hollywood movie production.

JazzManJim, Bloody Shirt Republican

Republicans were notorious for attacking their Democratic opponents by waving the bloody shirt, a campaign tactic designed to activate the historical remembrance of the Civil War among voters. Carefully selected, the wartime memories used by bloody-shirt Republicans became as familiar as the scriptures: GOP candidates reminded Northern voters of the party of their president's firmness in the face of secession and portrayed the Democratic party as treasonous.

The tactic of waving the bloody shirt, was always controversial within the GOP, as many in the party thought its heated rhetoric needlessly inflamed sectional tensions.

 

[zipman]

But as for you and Ishmael thinking this has nothing to do with politics, well that's just ridiculous. If these sorts of issues were religious only, why have we been talking about abortion for thirty-odd years, and why did GW feel a need to make a policy statement on stem cells at the very start of his term in office? Of course this is a political issue. To think otherwise is pure denial.

What's terribly ironic about it is that the change of language regarding evolution is as Politically Correct a move as any ever suggested by liberals. What else can you call changing a perfectly valid word for the sole purpose of mollifying an objecting segment of society?

And therein lies my point (once again). The Republican party of today has shown an eager willingness to advance their cause by utilizing the very tools they've been complaining about for years. And if you don't think that's hypocrisy, please explain why not.

I think believing that this is a Republican issue as opposed to a religious one is what is ridiculous. Your other examples (abortion and stem cell research) are indeed partisan positions. But that doesn't mean that this issue is one as well.

I haven't seen one single thing in all the reporting linking this issue to partisan politics, probably because there is none to be found.

Your point about political correctness is a good one and I think that it is dead on target. I despise political correctness from any party, religion or ideology.