Get the gone!

[AvroAnsonXIX]

Unless there is something very jarring within the first few paragraphs I will stubbornly stick to a book or story...could be a form of OCD

I'm the opposite. If it's not work related and the syntax is technically troublesome, or offers points of view that I know will annoy me, I move to the next item immediately. As to plot, I usually see where everything is headed fairly quickly. So it's mostly about the ride, if it strains credulity, I move on.

As a result I rarely finish anything that I start when I read (or watch television) for pleasure. But I enjoy the things that I finish. Something a bot might deem illegitimate because all my votes here are *****.

 

[Bramblethorn]

For clarity, I rewrote one of the lines quoted in my post. From "not regulated" to "federally protected."

The US ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement) website I was directed to when I searched "US v Frank McCoy" says that the Minnesota USA resident was under ICE surveillance for distributing "stories," (I assume overseas) and he was initially actually charged with "one count of transporting obscene material."

"A subsequent search, made at the request of his U.S. Probation Officer, revealed the computers contained dozens of videos of child exploitation. Evidence at trial further demonstrated that McCoy had installed forensic-wiping software on his computers in order to destroy any evidence of child exploitation images."

He accepted "121 months in federal prison, and 10 years supervised release following his prison sentence." Obviously in a plea-bargain which prosecutors love because it muddies the waters.

You're conflating two different cases there.

TLDR: first time around, McCoy was charged with "transporting obscene material". The "transport" here means "people downloaded stories from his website", specifically interstate within the USA. (I imagine he also had overseas readers, but that wasn't the focus of the charge - "across state lines" will do ya.)

He did not cop a plea bargain in that case - he tried a First Amendment defense, but the judge found that his stories didn't have any literary value and hence didn't meet the minimum requirements for 1A protection. He was convicted, appealed, and in March 2015 he lost the appeal.

After doing his time on that one, he got caught with child exploitation videos (note mention of a probation officer - you don't have one of those unless you've already been convicted of something). That time around he took a plea deal; presumably it would have been a pretty clear-cut case.

Here's the judgement on the obscenity case. Includes details of his stories, not for the faint of heart:

https://cases.justia.com/federal/appellate-courts/ca11/13-14350/1118331399/0.pdf

As a mother and grandmother, I abhor abuse of children (and adults). But being under surveillance is never a good thing. My take is he aroused suspicion on something iffy (stories, protected if fiction, criminal if not), the authorities dug and they found enough evidence of greater crimes (images, which undeniably involved real children).

Nope. As per the judgement above, the earlier conviction was solely for sharing fictional stories, with no allegation of RL images or video of any kind.

 

[AvroAnsonXIX]

You're conflating two different cases there.

I've worked in the US, but I'm not a US Citizen, nor a lawyer D apparently if your parents are married to one another when you are conceived it disqualifies you ). I can't ever recall hearing about the cases. Which apparently were in 2013 and 2016 or therabouts. In no way am I defending this douche-bag.

The info in my initial post came strictly from ICE's official website (I know, I really should have used a RELIABLE source, not a .gov source.) The "facts" offered by ICE who take credit for his arrest -- ICE doesn't deal with intra-US-state crime (the FBI does) so there must have been a Customs nexus for them to have juridiction -- seem to differ from your on-line account AND differ the one from DHS provides, which is odd because ICE is part of DHS (?!?!?) so three slightly different variants exist.

(As an aside, former US Vice President Dick Cheney was an expert at saying -- true -- things in a convoluted way, and of saying multiple -- true -- unrelated things in the same sentence, so that listeners came away thinking that he had said something -- that was untrue -- that when what he actually had said was -- expertly -- parsed he had not actually said.)

ICE says there was a trial in Atlanta either in 2013 or 2016 or perhaps later for the crimes that occurred in 2013 and 2016 or earlier (the syntax is unclear and contradictory) which they say included tech, stories, and pictures. My old school masters told us: "to beware when smart people start saying dumb things. It means they are hiding something."

In the US legal system a plea bargain can occur after a trial begins -- when the text says he "accepted" 121 months in jail, those words say to me a plea bargain has occurred -- and people are sentenced after they "accept the plea. I have heard of those who aren't "technically" guilty taking a plea bargain, but unless the person is mentally deficient that is a strategy based on their belief that they will suffer more if convicted and that being convicted is likely.

Now if cherries and making cherry tortes became illegal tomorrow, but writing about fictional cherry tortes was legal so long as no real cherries were used to write the story, prudent people would likely not write about fictional cherry tortes. I mean who wants to battle a foe with unlimited resources in court over whether real or fictional cherries were used writing the recipes.

My issue is when officials start investigating people for possessing strawberry plants because they've outlawed cherry trees. "Hey both are red." Or websites tell people who make meat pies they can't talk about it because cherry tortes are illegal and: "both have pastry crusts." It's chilling because only a moron puts themselves in a position where a jury decides their freedom over the difference between a torte and a pie or a cherry and a strawberry.

Reading this case I get the impression that this guy should have been convicted just for being stupid all on its own. While on parole he buys some piece of tech that supposedly scrubs his hard drive of images that were illegal AND RELATED TO WHAT HE WAS CONVICTED OF. Then he is caught in possession of the scrubber, images, and text (which might be illegal or might not be illegal depending on whether it's deemed to be fiction or was derived from a separate crime).

Pure genius.

My take is he aroused suspicion on something iffy (stories, protected if fiction, criminal if not), the authorities dug and they found enough evidence of greater crimes (images, which undeniably involved real children).

The policeman who stops you for not signalling a lane change (something that is pretty much impossible to disprove) can search the car and find other evidence of other completely unrelated crimes. And if the law gets written like the rules here ...

It may be reported incorrectly by the ICE website. But, rereading the story, the odd way it is stated makes me think that my earlier take is correct. It specifically says he was investigated for "obsenity" but arrested for "transporting images" which is a violation of a law ICE enforces if international. Denied a first amendment defense he was convicted of "transporting images."

He was then investigated for "distributing pornography." Because he was on probation for that earlier conviction his computers were searched and the tech (which it says was proof of possessing pornography but it never says was illegal per-se, images, and obscene text) He "accepted" a sentence of 121 months, so he obviously felt that the government had the means to convict him and sentence him to more.

I wasn't on the jury, I didn't see the evidence. But the oddly and carefully worded "official line" on ICE's website seems to be hiding something, and the clearer text on the other site may be due to truncating or not fully understanding what was said or the issues at hand.

It's equally possible that the .gov website says what it says in an odd, disjointed way because ICE put an incompetent writer in a position where the agency felt they would do the least harm.

 

[eroticstoryspinner]

Have you been speaking with my wife, Simon? She worries when I start a conversation with: 'I've been thinking ....'

Sam, I was wondering if you were a First LT in real life?

 

[Bramblethorn]

The info in my initial post came strictly from ICE's official website (I know, I really should have used a RELIABLE source, not a .gov source.) The "facts" offered by ICE who take credit for his arrest -- ICE doesn't deal with intra-US-state crime (the FBI does) so there must have been a Customs nexus for them to have juridiction

Assuming you're talking about this ICE release, they're taking credit for his arrest for the second batch of offences (child porn). "Child exploitation" does fall under ICE HSI's remit, presumably since the material is very often shared internationally.

-- seem to differ from your on-line account AND differ the one from DHS provides, which is odd because ICE is part of DHS (?!?!?) so three slightly different variants exist.

Looking through the ICE report, looks as if I did have one error - I'd thought the video-porn case happened after he'd done his time on the "transporting obscenity" case, but actually he got busted for that while he was still waiting on the appeal for the first case.

I don't think this makes much difference, though - the 11th Circuit judgement I linked to earlier makes it very clear that in the first case, he was convicted purely for fictional stories.

Reading this case I get the impression that this guy should have been convicted just for being stupid all on its own. While on parole he buys some piece of tech that supposedly scrubs his hard drive of images that were illegal AND RELATED TO WHAT HE WAS CONVICTED OF. Then he is caught in possession of the scrubber, images, and text (which might be illegal or might not be illegal depending on whether it's deemed to be fiction or was derived from a separate crime).

Yeah, it wasn't the smartest move.

It may be reported incorrectly by the ICE website. But, rereading the story, the odd way it is stated makes me think that my earlier take is correct. It specifically says he was investigated for "obsenity" but arrested for "transporting images" which is a violation of a law ICE enforces if international. Denied a first amendment defense he was convicted of "transporting images."

I linked the 11th Circuit judgement before. It makes it very, very, very clear that McCoy's earlier conviction was specifically for transmitting text stories. There's no suggestion there that images were involved.

 

[JaxRhapsody]

The infamous As++r website has been down for quite awhile, looks like they shut down or were finally shut down.

Great site if you were into 11 year old girls being gang raped...sometimes by dogs.

Hmmm... and I had been waiting for my membership to be approved for ooooo... nine years now...

 

[AvroAnsonXIX]

Hmmm... and I had been waiting for my membership to be approved for ooooo... nine years now...

"Believe it ... Or don't" (old SNL sketch reference)

When it was created asstr was state of the art and light-years ahead of the old "alt.sex/group" and the like.

 

[Emirus]

It should be a simple thing to do away with the one vote so that only two and upwards would count. It would annoy the trolls, who would then vote two, but it would still please an awful lot of readers.

 

[KeithD]

It should be a simple thing to do away with the one vote so that only two and upwards would count. It would annoy the trolls, who would then vote two, but it would still please an awful lot of readers.

I wouldn't be surprised if all the purposeful downvoters haven't already learned to vote 2 rather than 1 to help their vote stick. In the Literotica system, any vote of 4 and lower helps prevent an H designation.

 

[AvroAnsonXIX]

I used to vote 4 for good stories and 5 for excellent ones ... But then I realized ...

Any vote of 4 and lower helps prevent an H designation.

I probably finish 5% of all stories and 1% of the stories over a page that I start. So I just figured that if I liked it enough to get to the end, then it was a ***** or a "no-comment." It didn't make sense to vote a story I finished "down" while not voting "down" the 95% of stories I didn't like enough to finish.

 

[SamScribble]

Sam, I was wondering if you were a First LT in real life?

In my family, the choice was Welsh Guards or Navy. And if you chose Navy, anything less than lieutenant commander was generally considered a bit of a failure. The notable exception was my grandfather who was invalided out with the rank of Boy, First Class. Not a great way to start your adult life.

 

[NoJo]

I used to vote 4 for good stories and 5 for excellent ones ... But then I realized ...



I probably finish 5% of all stories and 1% of the stories over a page that I start. So I just figured that if I liked it enough to get to the end, then it was a ***** or a "no-comment." It didn't make sense to vote a story I finished "down" while not voting "down" the 95% of stories I didn't like enough to finish.

That's pretty much my take on it too.

I'm no bell-weather. Most of the top stories here I consider crass and do nothing for me.

I've realised over the years on here that my taste in erotica is idiosyncratic and very un-representative, and that therefore my vote is irrelevant, in terms of encouraging others to read a story I liked. But when I read a story which I liked but which has received mediocre, few, or low votes, I make a point of commenting and voting 5 stars, to encourage the author.

EDIT: By coincidence, since posting this, I just received a five star vote and a comment on one of my stories that exemplifies the previous sentence! How Karmic

 

[AvroAnsonXIX]

I'm no bell-weather. Most of the top stories here I consider crass and do nothing for me.

I've realised over the years on here that my taste in erotica is idiosyncratic and very un-representative, and that therefore my vote is irrelevant, in terms of encouraging others to read a story I liked. But when I read a story which I liked but which has received mediocre, few, or low votes, I make a point of commenting and voting 5 stars, to encourage the author.

Gosh, I could have written this (just not as succinctly or well).

 

[SimonDoom]

I've realised over the years on here that my taste in erotica is idiosyncratic and very un-representative, and that therefore my vote is irrelevant, in terms of encouraging others to read a story I liked. But when I read a story which I liked but which has received mediocre, few, or low votes, I make a point of commenting and voting 5 stars, to encourage the author.

On the contrary, I think if your vote is out of the ordinary and represents a minority view it's even more relevant. There are some readers who like the same stories you do and by voting on stories you like you help those readers, in a small way, find the same kinds of stories.

 

[lovecraft68]

I think that although many authors here write more than just generic smut-I always joke 'my smut has depth dammit-that we are on an erotic story site and the point o erotica is to arouse people.

Many readers do enjoy a slowburn build up and some conflict, but I feel more than that are here for the sex and masturbation fodder.

Being that you don't know what a story contains until you read it, I think some of the voting is done by a story not meeting the expectations of the substance vs stroke factions. Granted length can sometimes be a clue, but I have seen stories that are 5 pages or more that I'd still classify as mostly sex and smut.

Sometimes we like to be clever and switch things up, add more to the story than just sex.

But as Brad Pitt Says to Edward Norton in Fight Club, "How's that working out for you, being clever?"

 

[SimonDoom]

I think that although many authors here write more than just generic smut-I always joke 'my smut has depth dammit-that we are on an erotic story site and the point o erotica is to arouse people.

Many readers do enjoy a slowburn build up and some conflict, but I feel more than that are here for the sex and masturbation fodder.

Being that you don't know what a story contains until you read it, I think some of the voting is done by a story not meeting the expectations of the substance vs stroke factions. Granted length can sometimes be a clue, but I have seen stories that are 5 pages or more that I'd still classify as mostly sex and smut.

Sometimes we like to be clever and switch things up, add more to the story than just sex.

But as Brad Pitt Says to Edward Norton in Fight Club, "How's that working out for you, being clever?"

I agree with all this.

But it's perfectly legit for an author to say, "I'm going to piss off 100 readers with this story, but 20 will like it and will appreciate what I'm trying to do, so what the hell."

As long as you understand what you're probably getting in for, go for it.

I've written some stories that conform closely to what the readers are looking for, and I've written some stories that are weird and convention-defying, and I'm glad to have written both kinds of stories.

 

[oggbashan]

I think part of the trouble with my stories is that a reader doesn't know what they will get.

They might like some and be upset that the next one is nothing like the one they have just read.

I don't expect anyone to like ALL my stories.

 

[lovecraft68]

I agree with all this.

But it's perfectly legit for an author to say, "I'm going to piss off 100 readers with this story, but 20 will like it and will appreciate what I'm trying to do, so what the hell."

As long as you understand what you're probably getting in for, go for it.

I've written some stories that conform closely to what the readers are looking for, and I've written some stories that are weird and convention-defying, and I'm glad to have written both kinds of stories.

Right, I'm all for an author writing the story they want even if it may not be for everyone. My post was just more about explaining less than desirable voting/comments we sometimes get.

Once you learn a category you can get to where you may please a majority if you stick to things popular there, but you will never make everyone happy.

On the other end, you may write something that pleased very few, but as someone else said, that makes those positive comments more meaningful because someone "got it"

My I/T story That Damned Red Dress is not a typical story, its dark, depressing, and the sex is a sacrifice of sorts rather than through desire. I expected it to be trashed, but it did fairly well and very few negative comments, in fact many were some of the best I received because they saw I was not trying to write a typical story.

Having said that I often wonder if it would have fared worse if I hadn't already been here for a few years and had a fan base and was known for writing a train wreck here and there.

 

[SamScribble]

Right, I'm all for an author writing the story they want even if it may not be for everyone. My post was just more about explaining less than desirable voting/comments we sometimes get.

Once you learn a category you can get to where you may please a majority if you stick to things popular there, but you will never make everyone happy...

Rick Nelson went to a garden party. (A long time ago now.)

He learned [his] lesson well.
You see, ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself.​

 

[KeithD]

Rick Nelson went to a garden party. (A long time ago now.)

He learned [his] lesson well.
You see, ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself.​

Of course, Rick Nelson crashed and burned. Just sayin'.

 

[AvroAnsonXIX]

Of course, Rick Nelson crashed and burned. Just sayin'.

First day of (pllot) ground school:

Never set fire to an airplane you are flying in.

 

[TadOverdon]

Wouldn't be a single story on the site within 2 days. Loving Wives would vanish in the first 15 minutes.

LOL.

I've only been here for a few days, but it's pretty apparent already that some guys are really triggered by anything suggesting cuckoldry.

Which illustrates another problem with censorship -- the "slippery slope." I have stories that were put in the Incest category where none of the characters are related because they might offend sensibilities in Group Sex. I had a story in 'Nonhuman' that was deemed not Nonhuman for political reasons. I had a whole identity banned for the equivalent of saying "anal sex does not cause AIDS."

Not new to posting stories but being pretty new to online publishing as well as story sites like this one...and this is by far the biggest and most active...sorting out categories looks like a minefield.

We include fantasy incest between adults in our stories. That is understandably problematic for many readers, so every chapter that touches on it always goes under that as the main category. There's no reason anyone should have to accidentally find out that they're reading a story that's going to trouble them on that basic a level IMHO. So, other kinks like the aforementioned cuckold elements get relegated to the tags, right?

But the most common complaint here and elsewhere is that the story is miscategorized and should be categorized under...well, whatever element the reader found that they didn't like. Like, uh, well, mainly "cuckold."

 

[jaF0]

ASSTR.org 'Tis no more, I'm told.

'Twas only temporarily. Apparently.

 

[AvroAnsonXIX]

Sorting out categories looks like a minefield.

Immanuel Kant said that for a rule to be valid it had to be universally applicable. But ours is not a Kantian world. So, yes and no. The bottom line is that you don't decide. Who does? Well the site owner. But she gets exactly 4,349.07 new submissions every hour. So in reality the complainers decide.

We include fantasy incest between adults in our stories. That is understandably problematic for many readers,

I'm not sure why if it was good enough for God ... (Adam and Eve, Seth and Aura, Cain and Awan, twenty generations of brothers sisters and the occasional first-cousin up to the flood. The only survivors being three brothers and their wives who were also their cousins, and don't get me started with Jacob. John Madden on his best day couldn't diagram how interconnected he and his four wives were.) But for fun, load some Bible verse into Grammerly. Apparently God is really bad at writing prose too.

so every chapter that touches on it always goes under that as the main category.

The problem here is that if one rule is: "any story that mentions incest is an incest story." And another rule is: "thinking about someone being physically attractive, thinking about having sex, and seeing people naked are all sex." Then almost every story here is "an incest story," except it isn't to those who WANT to read an incest story. Then THEY complain.

There's no reason anyone should have to accidentally find out that they're reading a story that's going to trouble them on that basic a level IMHO.

So we arrive full circle back at I can't -- oops, I meant I. Kant and universality. You can't please everybody all the time. (Although I do well at annoying ALMOST all of the people ALMOST all of the time.)

So, other kinks like the aforementioned cuckold elements get relegated to the tags, right?

Up to ten. If you want high scores, someone told me a good strategy years ago. Use one alt per category, don't mix certain things like non-con and incest, incest and anal, incest and bsdm, anything with gay male. Lesbian is "O-," the universal donor of erotica. Don't include too many different kinks, or use big words to describe anything. (I tried it. It works. But I don't care. I write for my own enjoyment, not for high scores.)

But the most common complaint here and elsewhere is that the story is miscategorized and should be categorized under...well, whatever element the reader found that they didn't like. Like, uh, well, mainly "cuckold."

Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and often they are full of ...

 

[TadOverdon]

Thanks for the insights.