Silencing the voices

[StrentWriter]

Thoughts on writing anyone? You know… writing. Thagt thing we are all kinda meant to share.

Yes. Not sure whether I start a new draft of the novel a week after publishing it, or just leave it to simmer and work on something else.

I’m not sure what the “something else” is yet, but in my head something that could follow on in terms of style and length of Peta/Sam would be fun to do. Maybe go outside of my comfort zone and look into other kinks and story genres.

 

[YmaOHyd]

Thoughts on writing anyone? You know… writing. Thagt thing we are all kinda meant to share.

Writing dumb, poasting better

 

[Voboy]

Yes. Not sure whether I start a new draft of the novel a week after publishing it, or just leave it to simmer and work on something else.

I’m not sure what the “something else” is yet, but in my head something that could follow on in terms of style and length of Peta/Sam would be fun to do. Maybe go outside of my comfort zone and look into other kinks and story genres.

I rushed a WiP (which needed to be rushed, frankly) so that I could get a start on one of two ideas I now have. Now I'm ready to pick one.

Sometimes, there's no refractory period! When things are flowing, I usually have the next idea before the current one is finished. One of these two ideas has been on my mind since the 8th; the other is for Chloe's event, so I did some worldbuilding for that today.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Yes. Not sure whether I start a new draft of the novel a week after publishing it, or just leave it to simmer and work on something else.

I’m trying desperately to leave my published novel alone for a few months, though there are things I’d like to do differently. I have a list

 

[EmilyMiller]

Writing dumb, poasting better

You missed the dialectal ending, ‘ugh!’

 

[StrentWriter]

I’m trying desperately to leave my published novel alone for a few months, though there are things I’d like to do differently. I have a list

I also have a list, and it seems to get a few more added to it every time I re-read the draft I posted to the forum

I am very glad that I finally published it and called it “enough” as it has given me the confidence to know I can write something of that length, and publish it here.

Second time of asking, two years after I joined, had six months of what felt like absolute misery trying to get through AI filters, this time around was only some slight delay and some minor reformatting and then up and readable,

I am looking forward to that first comment, whenever (or if ever!) it arrives.

How did you feel after your first novel Emily? Pensive? Or relief? I feel like I meander between the two…

 

[EmilyMiller]

How did you feel after your first novel Emily? Pensive? Or relief? I feel like I meander between the two…

I feel like I got a monkey off my back. I have no intentions to write commercially. One of my [many] motivations to write it was just to see whether I could. Seems I can, and the positive feedback from excellent authors has been amazing. Do I want to write a second? I really don’t know. This is just a hobby and it was kinda all-consuming for nearly a year. So not soon anyway

 

[StrentWriter]

I feel like I got a monkey off my back.

I feel similarly - the story seemed to overtake me at times when writing it.

I have no intentions to write commercially. One of my [many] motivations to write it was just to see whether I could. Seems I can, and the positive feedback from excellent authors has been amazing. Do I want to write a second? I really don’t know. This is just a hobby and it was kinda all-consuming for nearly a year. So not soon anyway

I had similar motivations, I’m not sure I did it with quite as much aplomb as you but it felt good to just say “that’s done”.

(Despite the edits list!)

 

[EmilyMiller]

I feel similarly - the story seemed to overtake me at times when writing it.



I had similar motivations, I’m not sure I did it with quite as much aplomb as you but it felt good to just say “that’s done”.

(Despite the edits list!)

I don’t think there are many typos in it. It’s more minor plot points that I think I could have handled better.

And it is kinda full on, maybe it woudl do no harm being more measured at say 100 - 120,000 words rather than a break-neck 87,000. The plot is intricate enough and the cast large enough to support a longer treatment.

 

[StrentWriter]

I don’t think there are many typos in it. It’s more minor plot points that I think I could have handled better.

And it is kinda full on, maybe it woudl do no harm being more measured at say 100 - 120,000 words rather than a break-neck 87,000. The plot is intricate enough and the cast large enough to support a longer treatment.

I was debating fleshing out more minor characters and one off stories within the larger novel but felt it overtook the two main characters’ developments. EG - there’s a very real “and she was never seen again” by one character which leaves a gap that says much until the end of the novel, deliberately. I do sort of wish I’d done just a bit more with it.

I haven’t spotted any potholes yet in mine but I’m sure they’re there!

 

[TheRedChamber]

Just starting my day, scratching my head about how a discussion about whether there are or arent gatekeepers on the AH has morphed into actual gatekeeping proposals. Oh well, it'll never actually happen so I can get on with my day.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I'm trying to understand, isn't a beta reader one who gives feedback about how a story made them feel, as opposed to an editor who gives feedback and suggests changes on the writing structure and plot?

Or, are they the same thing?

Legit question, I'm learning.

There are actually different types of editors.

Copy Editors focus on the technical aspects of writing... grammar, spelling, punctation.

Developmental Editors go more into big picture elements of a manuscript, such as structure, content, organization, plot, character development, and thematic clarity.

 

[dirk2024]

Thoughts on writing anyone? You know… writing. Thagt thing we are all kinda meant to share.

That it would be good for me to do some today? Trying to decide which WIP is speaking to..."Hey Dirk...write me baby!"

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Editors are a necessity of the writing and publishing business. Putting aside the purely technical aspects of writing, editors who touch on higher aspects of writing can be both helpful and detrimental. They are supposed to know their business and what readers want, but they are also fallible.

I imagine new writers have to play by their rules, whether they like it or not, but I doubt anyone changes what Stephen King wrote. Let's not overestimate editors.

 

[dirk2024]

There are actually different types of editors.

Copy Editors focus on the technical aspects of writing... grammar, spelling, punctation.

Developmental Editors go more into big picture elements of a manuscript, such as structure, content, organization, plot, character development, and thematic clarity.

And they can be further fine tuned based on what the author is looking for. I might not be looking for technical advice (or the beta reader doesn't offer that) but I might want advice about a specific topic within the story.

 

[old_prof]

If I can just get some grading done, I can get back to writing this damned novel.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Editors are a necessity of the writing and publishing business. Putting aside the purely technical aspects of writing, editors who touch on higher aspects of writing can be both helpful and detrimental. They are supposed to know their business and what readers want, but they are also fallible.

I imagine new writers have to play by their rules, whether they like it or not, but I doubt anyone changes what Stephen King wrote. Let's not overestimate editors.

But we shouldn't underestimate their value either. Some writers, like Stephen King are worse off because no one can challenge them anymore. They need a good editor, someone to reign in their worse instincts, and once they lose that because they have the clout to tell anyone to fuck off, the quality of their work often suffers.

While it is certainly true that it's your story and you should write it the way you want to, you should also consider the advice you are being given.

If they make a suggestion a smart author will consider it with an open mind. Why are they saying this, why did I write in differently in the first place and consider the whole context of the feedback.
A good developmental editor will say, "This passage is weak, here's why..." "The pacing in this scene doesn't work... here's why..."
Then you as a writer should consider that. It doesn't compromise your artistic vision to do that.

And the person giving you advice doesn't have to be a "better" or "More successful" writer than you.

Tiger Woods has a swing coach. That guy couldn't hit a golf ball better than Tiger could but he could see what Tiger was doing wrong.

You don't have to be a great cook to know the soup is too salty...

Coaching and editing are different skill sets than writing.

 

[StrentWriter]

Based on my steadily increasing list of edits, I could have done with an editor

 

[AwkwardlySet]

But we shouldn't underestimate their value either. Some writers, like Stephen King are worse off because no one can challenge them anymore. They need a good editor, someone to reign in their worse instincts, and once they lose that because they have the clout to tell anyone to fuck off, the quality of their work often suffers.

While it is certainly true that it's your story and you should write it the way you want to, you should also consider the advice you are being given.

If they make a suggestion a smart author will consider it with an open mind. Why are they saying this, why did I write in differently in the first place and consider the whole context of the feedback.
A good developmental editor will say, "This passage is weak, here's why..." "The pacing in this scene doesn't work... here's why..."
Then you as a writer should consider that. It doesn't compromise your artistic vision to do that.

And the person giving you advice doesn't have to be a "better" or "More successful" writer than you.

Tiger Woods has a swing coach. That guy couldn't hit a golf ball better than Tiger could but he could see what Tiger was doing wrong.

You don't have to be a great cook to know the soup is too salty...

Coaching and editing are different skill sets than writing.

See, that's the thing. I agree about not underestimating editors either. But WHO is that good, knowledgeable, in tune with readers but also taking care of the art side of writing, so that they can "rule" that this or that in a story or novel would've been better than what the author wrote?

Sure, some things can be easy to spot, and I'm not talking about the obvious stuff. There are so many things that aren't easily "ruled" in that sense. Plus, I assume most editors are focused on a book doing better commercially, on achieving better sales, but what if that's not what the author wants? There are authors who have different motivations than simple commercial success.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Based on my steadily increasing list of edits, I could have done with an editor

There are two kinds of writers in the world, those that understand the value of a good editor, and idiots.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

See, that's the thing. I agree about not underestimating editors either. But WHO is that good, knowledgeable, in tune with readers but also taking care of the art side of writing, so that they can "rule" that this or that in a story or novel would've been better than what the author wrote?

Sure, some things can be easy to spot, and I'm not talking about the obvious stuff. There are so many things that aren't easily "ruled" in that sense. Plus, I assume most editors are focused on a book doing better commercially, on achieving better sales, but what if that's not what the author wants? There are authors who have different motivations than simple commercial success.

The flaw in your thinking is the use of the word "ruled". Editors aren't "ruling" anything. They are inviting a discussion about the value of doing something differently.

We are often to close to what we write, so we often don't see the problems in our work. You know what you meant, you know the characters whole story... all that stuff that isn't written down.
A good editor can say, "the readers won't understand this motivation... they don't have the context in your story."


Your editors motivations should be in tune with what you are trying to accomplish, commercial, artistic whatever.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

The flaw in your thinking is the use of the word "ruled". Editors aren't "ruling" anything. They are inviting a discussion about the value of doing something differently.

We are often to close to what we write, so we often don't see the problems in our work. You know what you meant, you know the characters whole story... all that stuff that isn't written down.
A good editor can say, "the readers won't understand this motivation... they don't have the context in your story."


Your editors motivations should be in tune with what you are trying to accomplish, commercial, artistic whatever.

We're talking about different kinds of editors. I'm not talking about Lit or about anything we write and publish here or on Amazon, Smashwords, and such. I was talking primarily about publishing houses' editors, who often act as gatekeepers for new writers. They do "rule" what works and what doesn't.

What we do here is very different, of course. Authors ask those editors for advice and help, and they choose whether to follow it. The power dynamic is completely different.
And I'll once again assert that, if you significantly rewrite and restructure your story based on editor's/beta-reader's suggestions and ideas, you should put their names as co-authors.

I'd say that what readers have in mind when one credits someone as a beta reader or editor is not what some authors practice.

 

[YmaOHyd]

See, that's the thing. I agree about not underestimating editors either. But WHO is that good, knowledgeable, in tune with readers but also taking care of the art side of writing, so that they can "rule" that this or that in a story or novel would've been better than what the author wrote?

Every editor is different. Bad editors lay down diktats and ultimatums and turn every writer into a clone of their own voice. Great editors -- well:

I hope you’ll indulge me for some story time: Last week I got word that my friend Erich Eichman had retired. You don’t know Erich; there’s no reason you would. But I want to tell you about him.

I have—this will not surprise you—a high opinion of myself as an editor. I’m not a good editor; I’m a great editor. But Erich was the best editor I ever worked with.

I first started writing for Erich in my late 20s. I was a kid at The Weekly Standard and he was the books editor at the Wall Street Journal.

I was trying to break into the big leagues as a freelancer so I pitched him on reviewing a book. It was my first time writing for a “real” publication, so I wanted my piece to be great. I gave it everything I had and delivered a solid draft. Maybe an 8/10.

The next day Erich sent me back the galleys with his edits and as I read them, the piece wasn’t good anymore. It was the best piece I’d ever written. It was a 10/10.

But here’s the thing: I couldn’t tell what he had done to it. As a writer, usually when you get your edits back you can see every comma that’s been changed. Erich’s edits were seamless. I couldn’t tell what was his and what was mine. I knew he had done something to it, because the piece I had submitted wasn’t nearly as good as the version I was reading.

So I took Erich’s galley, put it next to my draft, and went line-by-line doing a forensic excavation of his edits.

---

There are different schools of editing.

Some editors want all of their writers to sound the same—they want a uniform voice for their publication.

Other editors will inadvertently make you sound like them—they have a writing voice of their own and its the only one they can hear.

Still other editors want writers to be their sock puppets: They view editing as creating the piece that they wanted to write, but didn’t have time to do themselves.

Erich’s philosophy was simply this:

He made every writer sound like she would on her best day.

I cannot begin to describe the level of intelligence, artistry, and generosity involved in this school of editing. I can only say that it is what I’ve tried to emulate as an editor ever since I was lucky enough to fall under Erich’s care.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Why would we be talking about the editors at a publishing house when none of us are using one?

You are characterizing the whole editing process based on an extreme case.

I'd also disagree with your idea that they are gatekeepers in that sense. If you've gotten far enough publishers are paying for an editor you are past the gatekeepers.

 

[old_prof]

I'd also disagree with your idea that they are gatekeepers in that sense. If you've gotten far enough publishers are paying for an editor you are past the gatekeepers.

I know in some houses, editors may fulfill part of the gatekeeping role (or be recruiters) but that is not in their editing role.