Help with writing a character's thoughts

[sr71plt]

Arrogance is not having learned the publishing industry standards authorities on best practice, being able to provide that, and being prepared to cite the authorities, Naoko. It’s giving guidance that is, as far as you can cite, just your own opinion.

Here’s what the Chicago Manual of Style, the premier American publishing industry style authority has to say about the rendering of thoughts and single quotes:

13.41. Unspoken discourse. Thought, imagined dialogue, and other interior discourse may be enclosed in quotation mark or not, according to the context or the writer’s preference.

“I don’t care if we have offended Morgenstern,” thought Vera, “Besides,” she told herself, “they’re all fools.”

Why, we wondered, did we choose this route?

Note: No mention of italics or use of single quotes.

* * * *

13.28 Quotation Marks; Double or Single. Quoted words, phrases, and sentences run into the text are enclosed in double quotation marks. Single quotation marks enclose quotations within quotations; double marks, quotations within these; and so on.

Note: No mention of using them to render thoughts.

Your turn to cite a publishing industry authority (British style would be fine) for the guidance you gave. It certainly would be arrogant to give guidance of best practice only using yourself as the authority.

There could be a British-style publishing industry authority sanctioning the use of the single quotes (it certainly would be a clear style choice). But then, if you're not being arrogant on this, you know what it is and can cite it (without now having to trot off to a library).

I mean, when folks ask for help here, you want to give them the best practice advice, don't you? You don't just want to show off knowledge you don't have and then call someone rude and arrogant for knowing and giving industry standard guidance.

 

[SecondCircle]

I'm very much aware that friendly support usually is more highly valued on Internet discussion boards than accuracy is. That's one of the zany aspects of Internet discussion boards. And, yes, of course folks who actually know this stuff and are trying to help others with best practices are considered rude by "let's just all be happy--and wear condoms" folks like you, no matter how ignorant folks like you are about the "help" you choose to give.

I don't see why "friendly support" and accuracy can't be the same thing. Why does accuracy have to be packaged with rudeness?

 

[sr71plt]

I don't see why "friendly support" and accuracy can't be the same thing. Why does accuracy have to be packaged with rudeness?

It can be, but accuracy is more important than friendly support and providing unknowledged false guidance just to look like you know it isn't constructive--or friendly support. On this thread I politely provided the accurate standard (while bowing to another form that works on Literotica) and tried to pursue whether another form was actually acceptable in the Literotica file (conceding it was once I was actually shown it in the file), and I was rudely attacked for it.

Face it, on Internet boards, most posters want to think that posting means equal knowledge--that's a false assumption that swept in with the Internet. It doesn't. It just means equal access to the Internet boards. And show special knowledge on something? It brings out the knives--and charges of arrogance just because you actually do know what you're talking about and really are trying to help the requestor with the best practice advice.

 

[SecondCircle]

It can be, but accuracy is more important than friendly support and providing unknowledged false guidance just to look like you know it isn't constructive--or friendly support. On this thread I politely provided the accurate standard (while bowing to another form that works on Literotica) and tried to pursue whether another form was actually acceptable in the Literotica file (conceding it was once I was actually shown it in the file), and I was rudely attacked for it.

Face it, on Internet boards, most posters want to think that posting means equal knowledge--that's a false assumption that swept in with the Internet. It doesn't. It just means equal access to the Internet boards. And show special knowledge on something? It brings out the knives--and charges of arrogance just because you actually do know what you're talking about and really are trying to help the requestor with the best practice advice.

All true. But you can choose to be the better person and be respectful and nice about the accurate information you provide. If someone gives false info, and you can provide why it's false, then provide your citations and all and explain why you disagree, without condescending tones and cruel wording. People will respond to that better.

Whether right or wrong, if your words come across in a cruel manner, it's offputting. Has an air of arrogance to it. Not that it is, it just comes across that way. It's your right to post however you want, but you shouldn't be surprised if people respond to that negatively when you speak to them that way.

It is entirely possible to be civil and respectful and correct someone that is wrong. Rather than sound like you're calling someone an idiot for getting it wrong.

 

[sr71plt]

All true. But you can choose to be the better person and be respectful and nice about the accurate information you provide. If someone gives false info, and you can provide why it's false, then provide your citations and all and explain why you disagree,

Bullshit. Naoko became condescending first. And I've done all the rest you suggest. Let's see her back her guidance up.

Look at the progression. I very reasonably tried to pin down what was genuinely acceptable both here and in the mainstream (because some folks are actually interested in publishing in the mainstream) in the face of all sorts of crap being tossed in the air.

Just a bunch of babies. I'm not going to beg folks asking for best practice to accept best practice guidance. They--and you--can take it or leave it. I start off polite and did so here. Go talk to Naoko about her behavior, starting with why her guidance is accepted by publishing authorities (I politely asked her to cite an example that it is accepted here--which she only did grumpily and like pulling teeth and then got snotty about it. I graciously accepted that it's accepted here--or at least was that one time).

And if you don't want to get after Naoko for her behavior, then tough on you.

 

[SecondCircle]

Bullshit. Naoko became condescending first. And I've done all the rest you suggest. Let's see her back her guidance up.

Look at the progression. I very reasonably tried to pin down what was genuinely acceptable both here and in the mainstream (because some folks are actually interested in publishing in the mainstream) in the face of all sorts of crap being tossed in the air.

Just a bunch of babies. I'm not going to beg folks asking for best practice to accept best practice guidance. They--and you--can take it or leave it. I start off polite and did so here. Go talk to Naoko about her behavior, starting with why her guidance is accepted by publishing authorities (I politely asked her to cite an example that it is accepted here--which she only did grumpily and like pulling teeth and then got snotty about it. I graciously accepted that it's accepted here--or at least was that one time).

And if you don't want to get after Naoko for her behavior, then tough on you.

You started with a *sigh* like once again you have to repeat how it's done to folks. You did honestly ask for evidence that Lit supports British style. You did give accurate citations on how to do the quotes in American style. Some posters gave incorrect information. You don't have to grind them down at all.

Naoko thought you were being a bit grumpy about it. That's how it reads, honestly. Surely you understand that we attach "tone" to the words we post. Especially when you say things about the thread being riddled by inexperienced writers who don't have a clue about market place this and market place that.

Yes, you're correct. That's not really necessary to say. That comes off cruel and arrogant. So even when you're right (which most of the time you are) people tend to get defensive because of your wording. Makes it seem like you have a foot on their throat.

Just an observation, not iintended to offend.

 

[StrangeLife]

13.41. Unspoken discourse. Thought, imagined dialogue, and other interior discourse may be enclosed in quotation mark or not, according to the context or the writer’s preference.

“I don’t care if we have offended Morgenstern,” thought Vera, “Besides,” she told herself, “they’re all fools.”

Why, we wondered, did we choose this route?

If I may be literal (*snicker*)... because parameters like typeface and color traditionally have been at the sole discretion of the publisher, since they can influence printing costs significantly. Pre-electronic typesetting the use of italics or bold pretty much doubled the production costs, and even today the tradition sticks.

But a modern self-publishing author on electronic media can allow him/her/it-self a bit more freedom. The color is still taboo since not all devices support it, but all commonly used electronic fonts support bolded and italicized styles. Thus there is no longer any technical reasons for not taking advantage of it. If employed skilfully italics can work very well in a story. One of the best examples that come to mind is PatientLee's Purple Glitter.


However you are of course right - authors who aspire to go pro can't play with fonts or styling (yet).

 

[Serafina1210]

Too, there are right answers and "right" answers. Chicago style is influential because the Chicago Press published their house style, and people liked the book. It's easier for a small academic press to use Chicago style than to come up with a house style that has that level of detail. But there is no one definitive, universally accepted style. I've read (courtesy of Google) that Judy Blume and Tom Clancy use italics to render thoughts--that probably means their publishers styled their books that way.

My impression is that many points of usage are even more variable in the U.K. than in the U.S.

 

[JKendallDane]

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...ality-disorder/basics/definition/con-20025568

When you have narcissistic personality disorder, you may come across as conceited, boastful or pretentious. You often monopolize conversations. You may belittle or look down on people you perceive as inferior. You may have a sense of entitlement. And when you don't receive the special treatment to which you feel entitled, you may become very impatient or angry.

Narcissistic personality disorder symptoms may include:

Believing that you're better than others

Fantasizing about power, success and attractiveness

Exaggerating your achievements or talents

Expecting constant praise and admiration

Believing that you're special and acting accordingly

Failing to recognize other people's emotions and feelings

Expecting others to go along with your ideas and plans

Taking advantage of others

Expressing disdain for those you feel are inferior

Being jealous of others

Believing that others are jealous of you

Trouble keeping healthy relationships

Setting unrealistic goals

Being easily hurt and rejected

Having a fragile self-esteem

Appearing as tough-minded or unemotional

 

[Hypoxia]

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...ality-disorder/basics/definition/con-20025568

Anyone we know?

 

[JKendallDane]

Anyone we know?

Just one of those "if the shoe fits..." kind of things that seemed apropos for this thread.

 

[Serafina1210]

I don't think diagnosis by forum posting is a terrifically good idea.

Particularly not on an erotica site, if you get my drift.

(Sez Serafina, who peoples her fictions mostly with submissives and whores.)

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Bingo!

Quote:
When you have narcissistic personality disorder, you may come across as conceited, boastful or pretentious. You often monopolize conversations. You may belittle or look down on people you perceive as inferior. You may have a sense of entitlement. And when you don't receive the special treatment to which you feel entitled, you may become very impatient or angry.

Quote:
Narcissistic personality disorder symptoms may include:
Believing that you're better than others
Fantasizing about power, success and attractiveness
Exaggerating your achievements or talents
Expecting constant praise and admiration
Believing that you're special and acting accordingly
Failing to recognize other people's emotions and feelings
Expecting others to go along with your ideas and plans
Taking advantage of others
Expressing disdain for those you feel are inferior
Being jealous of others
Believing that others are jealous of you
Trouble keeping healthy relationships
Setting unrealistic goals
Being easily hurt and rejected
Having a fragile self-esteem
Appearing as tough-minded or unemotional