How do I ?or How did You?

[Avery_Chisholm]

There are often circumstances that keep us from living the life we want to live. And circumstances that keep us from having the person we truly want to have. Seems to me the warrior queen was just doing what she had to do to move on and attempt to make a life for herself. Seems to me she made the best of what she was given.

Yes, life IS too short to spend it 1/2 happy. That isn't selfish. That is a fact. It takes one hell of a lot of courage to do what you have to do to find that true happiness, and stepping out of what you thought for so long was the 'right' thing is scary as hell. But it is worth it.

warrior queen...I hope you do find that happiness with that man you love so much.

S.

very well said

 

[Guest]

 

[crazybbwgirl]

I'm so impressed to see such a nice, thoughtful, non-judgmental thread involving affairs. I always find it amazing that this board can chat about anal fisting without blinking twice, but NOOOOO no extra-marital affairs please!!

And I think its because it touches home and puts that sliver of fear in every married person's heart?!?! maybe? I don't know. And I don't have any advice that hasn't already been given. Just had to comment on the replies.

 

[PurpleOrchid]

"Emotional affairs"- All that you love , but no actual phys touch. Daily conversation, ph , email , IM (might have been phy before a marriage)

Vs.

"Physical Affair"

What's the difference and to whome, tell me

 

[midwestyankee]

"Emotional affairs"- All that you love , but no actual phys touch. Daily conversation, ph , email , IM (might have been phy before a marriage)

Vs.

"Physical Affair"

What's the difference and to whome, tell me

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here, as the distingushing difference is clear, but I'll toss out a comment nonetheless.

Emotional affairs can have much of the intensity of a physical affair. In a situation such as you describe - daily contact by one or more means - the two partners must be thinking of each other very often. This, it seems to me, would lead to intense feelings of love. For all intents and purposes, what you describe is an affair of the heart. All that's missing - and the two partners might have come to such an acceptance of their non-physical relationship that they would not see this as "missing" at all - is the sexual contact of a physical affair.

If you're asking how the different types of affairs might affect different people, one thought that comes to mind is the impact on the spouse of the person in the affair. If the physical affair is brief - what is often called a fling - then it's possible the impact could be less than in an affair of the heart. A spouse might be able to accept and/or forgive a brief physical fling more easily than an emotional affair. In an emotional affair one truly falls in love with someone other than the spouse, and presumably this would be far more threatening to a spouse than a brief and mindless fling.

Just my two cents.

 

[Redisme]

someone in this thread suggested burning any personal things you may have to remind you of the affair. DONT, please dont do this. Store them safely away, until you are definately over it. Then they will be treasured memories.

I dont have anything to add as a helpful suggestion, only a dont warning.

One day, you'll be old, sat in front of a fire, reading the letters, looking at the cards, staring at the photo and enjoying the memory.

I do not judge you badly, i walked in your shoes, and they hurt like hell.

Take care of yourself

 

[PurpleOrchid]

Hmmmm, I waited all weekend for monday to come (S.O away). So that i could release with a good bonfire, if it wernt for my questioning, "should i pawn the jewlery?" Will it burn?", I would have already set the cauldrun outside, worn a hallo of flowers and done a dance...
You're right , Put away the cards , letters & pictures for a time in my life that the memories will be the highest moment of my days (old age)
I Thank you and my volunteer F.D thanks you

 

[sheath]

A spouse might be able to accept and/or forgive a brief physical fling more easily than an emotional affair. In an emotional affair one truly falls in love with someone other than the spouse, and presumably this would be far more threatening to a spouse than a brief and mindless fling.

Just my two cents.

I agree.

I think an emotional affair is much more dangerous to a marriage than a physical affair could ever be. A physical affair doesn't have to have the emotional element; the affair of the heart thrives on the emotional and doesn't have to have the physical. By the time your heart is involved, the physical aspect doesn't matter...the consummation of passion is just incidental, in the end. The real affair began the moment the heart turned to someone else.

I think there is a serious misconception about affairs. I've heard it said that "his/her affair ended our marriage". That's not true, in my opinion. A physical fling is one thing, and as yankee said, it can be forgiven. But I believe that by the time an emotional affair begins, the marriage is already in very serious trouble, in all the ways that matter. If it were not in serious trouble, why would the spouse have a reason to go looking for something else?

So...the affair is a symptom of the trouble, not the trouble itself.

My two cents...

S.

 

[midwestyankee]

I agree.

I think an emotional affair is much more dangerous to a marriage than a physical affair could ever be. A physical affair doesn't have to have the emotional element; the affair of the heart thrives on the emotional and doesn't have to have the physical. By the time your heart is involved, the physical aspect doesn't matter...the consummation of passion is just incidental, in the end. The real affair began the moment the heart turned to someone else.

I think there is a serious misconception about affairs. I've heard it said that "his/her affair ended our marriage". That's not true, in my opinion. A physical fling is one thing, and as yankee said, it can be forgiven. But I believe that by the time an emotional affair begins, the marriage is already in very serious trouble, in all the ways that matter. If it were not in serious trouble, why would the spouse have a reason to go looking for something else?

So...the affair is a symptom of the trouble, not the trouble itself.

My two cents...

S.

I can see two reasons why Sheath is right here. First, let's clear something up. It's not the affair that is in question here. While Sheath is entirely correct that an affair is primarily a symptom of something deeply wrong in the marriage, I think that the discovery of an affair is really what people mean when they say "the affair ended the marriage."

The second interpretation that I can give to the notion that an affair ended a marriage is to see it as a catalyst. - the discovery could set off some reflection and action on the part of the aggrieved spouse.

In some cases, I can imagine that this discovery could lead to serious discussion between the spouses and actually enable them to begin the process of healing the relationship. In other cases, I can imagine a spouse taking a no-prisoners attitude and declaring the relationship over.

In any event, it's not the affair itself but the discovery of it that matters. Second, it's what happens after the discovery that precipitates the ending of the relationship. While any relationship that is tarnished by an affair may be severely damaged, I suspect some could be saved under the proper circumstances and with the right actions by the spouses.

Just my usual two or three cents worth.

 

[sheath]

I can see two reasons why Sheath is right here. First, let's clear something up. It's not the affair that is in question here. While Sheath is entirely correct that an affair is primarily a symptom of something deeply wrong in the marriage, I think that the discovery of an affair is really what people mean when they say "the affair ended the marriage."

The second interpretation that I can give to the notion that an affair ended a marriage is to see it as a catalyst. - the discovery could set off some reflection and action on the part of the aggrieved spouse.

Good points all, yankee.

I think the discovery of the affair is such a catalyst because it brings to light things that should have been addressed in the marriage long before the affair began. Things that were swept under the rug for too long, and for too many inane reasons. And by the time an affair actually happens, those issues are often too far gone to be dealt with. In regard to an emotional affair, the question would always linger...why did my spouse fall in love with someone else? How much of his/her heart did I lose? And will I ever get it back?

Those questions are the ones that ultimately end the union, I think. Not the fact of the affair, necessarily. Or even the discovery of it, though the discovery does jump-start those questions in the head.

That's another reason why an affair of the heart is so devastating, much more so than a physical one. It is easy to imagine what happens in a physical sense. But the heart and mind and soul are so complex, once you have lost your spouse to that emotional affair, I don't believe you can ever completely have them back.

Boy, we're getting all philosophical here, aren't we?

S.

 

[midwestyankee]

Good points all, yankee.

I think the discovery of the affair is such a catalyst because it brings to light things that should have been addressed in the marriage long before the affair began. Things that were swept under the rug for too long, and for too many inane reasons. And by the time an affair actually happens, those issues are often too far gone to be dealt with. In regard to an emotional affair, the question would always linger...why did my spouse fall in love with someone else? How much of his/her heart did I lose? And will I ever get it back?

Those questions are the ones that ultimately end the union, I think. Not the fact of the affair, necessarily. Or even the discovery of it, though the discovery does jump-start those questions in the head.

That's another reason why an affair of the heart is so devastating, much more so than a physical one. It is easy to imagine what happens in a physical sense. But the heart and mind and soul are so complex, once you have lost your spouse to that emotional affair, I don't believe you can ever completely have them back.

Boy, we're getting all philosophical here, aren't we?

S.

This makes a lot of sense to me. The mind and heart (if you want to use that term) together form a complex union. I'm not sure that even a long-term lover ever truly understands all that goes on in one's heart and mind together. The mystery of why we love one person rather than another is one that no one ever really solves for oneself in fact.

I think that a great deal of the faith in a relationship has to do with accepting the wholeness of another's love for us; the uniqueness and the exclusiveness of romantic love give it extraordinary power. To continue a relationship knowing that the uniqueness and exclusivity have been broken must take a very unusual person in a very unusual relationship. I'm sure it happens but I presume it's rare.

Oh, and if you want to get philosophical, you found the right guy to talk with. This is my element.

 

[Missingmeds]

As someone that has been cheated on in a marriage, it is this thought that comes to mind.

It wasn't just that my trust in the other person was gone, but the feelings of being deprived of having my own sexual and emotional needs met that just finished things off.

So therefore, it is more the emotional in my case.

But what really strikes me as funny is that he was the one that was complaining of my being cold, and uninterested in sex.

Odd that he is the only one that has ever said that about me. So you see, it might have been that it isn't and never was my problem. In actually it is the other person.

 

[Guest]

 

[midwestyankee]

So to stretch this philosophical element even further... do you think most people have the ability to distinguish what you call "romantic love" from what might be a passing phase? Many people presume they are "in love" at the start of a new relationship. You see only perfection in the other person (of course, because people tend to only present their best sides at the begining), and you wonder how you might have a life without them.

So how do you distinguish between a full-blown emotional/physical affair (where you want to cherish and savor every moment and every memory, even after it's ended), and an affair that may have started as emotional and physical... but in hindsight, you wish had never happened? Do you believe that it's possible for people to get caught up in a moment or an idea? That people might "think" they're in love, but in reality it's infatuation with something new?? Are there statutes on forgiveness based on the type of "love" the person in the affair had (or has) for the Other? -And can you ever really know for sure what level of love it was?

I think it would take quite a bit of deiscipline and self-awareness to be able to tell when one passes from that "falling in love" stage to fully loving another. In my view, the distinguishing characteristic is when one's attitude toward the love changes from a very me-centered one (in which love seems to mean all the wonderful feelings we associate with being near the one we are attracted to) to other-centered attitudes where our concern is for the happiness and well-being of the other - even if it means some sacrifice on our part.

Of course people get caught up in the moment or the by idea that they might be in love. It's a fantastically attractive state, after all. Most people are not even aware that the phase of "falling in love" is simply a stage in progress toward truly loving someone else. Most see that emotional high as true love and never come to awareness of a greater and more profound love. It's such a euphoric state that many people think they are falling out of love when in fact they are in transition toward being able to fully love their lover. Thus is born our high divorce rate and behavior patterns whereby people move constantly from one new relationship to another.

It's an interesting idea you raise: statutes of forgiveness. I wonder if you mean something like statutes of limitation in which a crime can no longer be prosecuted after a certain period. My guess is that most spouses take a dim view of any kind of love, deep or shallow, short or long, and would rarely consider mitigating their anger and hurt on such a basis.

Now I bet you're sorry you asked.

 

[sheath]

So to stretch this philosophical element even further... do you think most people have the ability to distinguish what you call "romantic love" from what might be a passing phase? Many people presume they are "in love" at the start of a new relationship. You see only perfection in the other person (of course, because people tend to only present their best sides at the begining), and you wonder how you might have a life without them.

So how do you distinguish between a full-blown emotional/physical affair (where you want to cherish and savor every moment and every memory, even after it's ended), and an affair that may have started as emotional and physical... but in hindsight, you wish had never happened? Do you believe that it's possible for people to get caught up in a moment or an idea? That people might "think" they're in love, but in reality it's infatuation with something new?? Are there statutes on forgiveness based on the type of "love" the person in the affair had (or has) for the Other? -And can you ever really know for sure what level of love it was?

Good questions...and I'll bite.

I think you can definitely know what 'level' of love you feel. The truest of love endures. It endures, no matter what circumstances you are handed. I'm going to use warrior queen as an example, since she has already answered these questions, in a way...she is in love with someone, the kind of enduring love that has withstood her marriage to someone else, the changes in her life, all the hardships...it is still there, and obviously still just as strong in her heart as it was in the beginning. Maybe even stronger now that it has been tested.

Infatuation happens to everyone, I think. But only when it is tested do you realize how strong it is. If you are never tested, you never know. And of course, never being tested lends itself to that 'perfection' that infatuation thrives upon. Only when the problems are thrown into your lap do you realize what your heart is truly made of.

I was recently faced with that, myself. I had no idea 'infatuation' had turned to 'love' until I was faced with a revelation that rocked me to the core. Over the span of one conversation I realized that my 'infatuation' wasn't just that anymore. And so forgiveness came very easily, and working through the problem became a matter of simple acceptance. I haven't regretted that choice, and I never will.

You mention the difference between an affair you regret and an affair you look back on with fondness. I think that is a big determination of the 'kind' of love it was. If it was true, if it was the deep kind of love that nurtures you and helps you grow, then it doesn't come along with regret. I don't think true love leaves room for regret.

Maybe that's an idealistic view. It probably is. But it has always worked for me, and when I look back now? I have absolutely no regrets about the men I have loved, no matter what the situation was. It was worth it.



S.

 

[sheath]

It's an interesting idea you raise: statutes of forgiveness. I wonder if you mean something like statutes of limitation in which a crime can no longer be prosecuted after a certain period. My guess is that most spouses take a dim view of any kind of love, deep or shallow, short or long, and would rarely consider mitigating their anger and hurt on such a basis.

Just a comment that came to mind:

Someone once told me: "There is a very fine line between forgiveness and stupidity, and that line is drawn in shifting sand." I think there comes a point where forgiveness is pushed to the limit. How many times can you forgive? I don't think it is necessarily a determination of how much you love someone else, but perhaps a determination of how much you respect yourself.

S.

 

[midwestyankee]

Just a comment that came to mind:

Someone once told me: "There is a very fine line between forgiveness and stupidity, and that line is drawn in shifting sand." I think there comes a point where forgiveness is pushed to the limit. How many times can you forgive? I don't think it is necessarily a determination of how much you love someone else, but perhaps a determination of how much you respect yourself.

S.

I also see a distinction between forgiveness and acceptance. Some people probably accept circumstances into their lives that bear forgiveness yet they do not forgive. They merely accept and deny themselves and their partners the gift of forgiveness. These can be people who allow themselves to be trod upon more than once, in which case the behavior may do much more harm than good. I've seen this in my family, where someone tends to take on the role of martyr at the drop of a hat.

Forgiveness takes effort - and this is effort that some are not willing to make. Forgiveness takes reflection - and the reflection might reveal faults that we choose to deny. Sometimes mere acceptance is a survival technique. Unfortunately, merely surviving is not always the healthiest choice we might make.

 

[intrigued]

I don't have time to give much of a reply, I'll have to come back later. I just want to note that in my book (and I hold high standards, lol) midwestyankee and sheath are two of the most impressive people I've ever encountered. I've read you both quite awhile now, and I always end up thinking "wow, just wow!".

 

[midwestyankee]

I don't have time to give much of a reply, I'll have to come back later. I just want to note that in my book (and I hold high standards, lol) midwestyankee and sheath are two of the most impressive people I've ever encountered. I've read you both quite awhile now, and I always end up thinking "wow, just wow!".

Thank you. I hold Sheath in very high regard myself.

 

[intrigued]

Thank you. I hold Sheath in very high regard myself.

Maybe you two should hook up, lol?

Ahh, but you're married, right??

 

[midwestyankee]

Maybe you two should hook up, lol?

Ahh, but you're married, right??

Yes, I am.

 

[PurpleOrchid]

I must jump in here and givey some praise too!
I'll tell ya MidwestYank, I thought for the longest time after reading your posts that ,this is a female...sexist i know!
you have such a way with words, understanding emotions & your being very philosophical to boot. I couldnt help but use my own mindset and assume that you were... but geesh! I got sooo into your replys ,checked profile... blown away... A MAN!..and a married man. .. your very special!..and No i am not hitting on you, My thread remember!.. done with MM..but so thankful to have come across someone with your outlook and advice
Ya touch me mister!!
Many hugs

 

[Guest]

 

[intrigued]

PurpleOrchid and raventale, I agree with you both.

midwestyankee, believe me, I'm respecting you, I meant no harm in my question, OK? I just happen to think you two would be incredible together, and I dig you even more now.

Have a good day, folks!

 

[midwestyankee]

I must jump in here and givey some praise too!
I'll tell ya MidwestYank, I thought for the longest time after reading your posts that ,this is a female...sexist i know!
you have such a way with words, understanding emotions & your being very philosophical to boot. I couldnt help but use my own mindset and assume that you were... but geesh! I got sooo into your replys ,checked profile... blown away... A MAN!..and a married man. .. your very special!..and No i am not hitting on you, My thread remember!.. done with MM..but so thankful to have come across someone with your outlook and advice
Ya touch me mister!!
Many hugs

Thank you. These are very kind words.