How do you navigate Non-Con

[Katie_Mae]

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Non consent is rape, and for something like 99% of the population, that's where it starts and finishes... (The 99% is me just throwing a figure out.) I don't know what the exact figure is. Let's just say most people find it unacceptable. Not just taboo, but totally unacceptable.

The studies I've read suggest the percentage of women who have rape fantasies Is much higher than 1%. I can pull out some when I'm at my computer later, But it was much, much higher than 1%. (I think from memories over 50%)

For those that have survived rape and lived to tell the story. A happy ending Non con is impossible

I've been raped, so not impossible for someone to enjoy non- con when they've been raped. As you know, rape fantasies have nothing to do with wanting to be raped.

 

[WCSGarland]

There are also different forms of non-consent as well as the non-consensual sexual intercourse. One example is when a woman gets pregnant from consensual sex and decides to keep or abort the baby despite the wishes of the biological father, that is a form of non-consent. Over many parts of the world, there are still arranged marriages. That is a form of non-consent. Somebody may insist it is still rape, but in the cultures in which it happens in, it is not considered rape. Simple kidnapping is a form of non-consent that is not specifically rape. Forcing another person to get drunk or get high on drugs is a form of non-consent that is not specifically rape. Exhibitionism is a form of non-consent that is not specifically rape as is voyeurism.

 

[Cagivagurl]

The studies I've read suggest the percentage of women who have rape fantasies Is much higher than 1%. I can pull out some when I'm at my computer later, But it was much, much higher than 1%. (I think from memories over 50%)

I've been raped, so not impossible for someone to enjoy non- con when they've been raped. As you know, rape fantasies have nothing to do with wanting to be raped.

The figure was not supposed to be exact. Just a random number.
I wasn't talking fantasy. I was talking real life...
The number of people who think rape is acceptable. I know I mentioned fetish... That was more the people who think rape is OK...
There probably are people All genders included, who've dreamed about the loss of control.
Not physical rape... Just the loss of control... There's a difference...
There's some research that speaks about the reason the loss of control element is so strong.
It allows the person having the fantasy to put themselves in a situation where they're not comfortable...
IE, a homosexual relationship perhaps... Or BDSM... In real life, that might be a step to far, so being forced eases their conscience... They actually want to be there, so it's not really Non consensual. They just use that to free their minds....

So, my point about the percentage is very high... Rape, is not acceptable to most people.

Cagivagurl

 

[Cagivagurl]

There are also different forms of non-consent as well as the non-consensual sexual intercourse. One example is when a woman gets pregnant from consensual sex and decides to keep or abort the baby despite the wishes of the biological father, that is a form of non-consent. Over many parts of the world, there are still arranged marriages. That is a form of non-consent. Somebody may insist it is still rape, but in the cultures in which it happens in, it is not considered rape. Simple kidnapping is a form of non-consent that is not specifically rape. Forcing another person to get drunk or get high on drugs is a form of non-consent that is not specifically rape. Exhibitionism is a form of non-consent that is not specifically rape as is voyeurism.

I don't see an arranged marriage as non consent...
The bride, or groom for that matter have the chance to say no...
They accept it, because it is part of their culture...
Non consent, would be if either of the parties said no, and were physically forced into it. Like being sold into slavery...
A childs life is not sexual... What happens to the baby, whether it's aborted or born. Is purely part of life, where two parties disagree. Like every argument ever held.
Not everybody agrees, or wins....

My reference, was more centred on the sexual element, as that's what was proposed originally...

Cagivagurl

 

[Katie_Mae]

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There are also different forms of non-consent as well as the non-consensual sexual intercourse. One example is when a woman gets pregnant from consensual sex and decides to keep or abort the baby despite the wishes of the biological father, that is a form of non-consent. Over many parts of the world, there are still arranged marriages. That is a form of non-consent. Somebody may insist it is still rape, but in the cultures in which it happens in, it is not considered rape. Simple kidnapping is a form of non-consent that is not specifically rape. Forcing another person to get drunk or get high on drugs is a form of non-consent that is not specifically rape. Exhibitionism is a form of non-consent that is not specifically rape as is voyeurism.

Building on your examples with specific examples people may have read/watched:
Pride and Prejudice is a classic NCR story that is consider "mainstream."
The wedding night between Claire and Jamie in Outlander is also a more obvious example.
You've got Mail, again, NCR
Practically every enemies to lover trope ever.

NCR fantasies are very common in literature/film.

 

[Cagivagurl]

You're not alone. However, if someone rights a non-con rape story, it shouldn't be portrayed the way the rules require it. I wrote some non-con, which isn't here, as therapy. (Has anyone noticed that a therapist is the rapist.) Anyway, rape is demeaning, dehumanizing, degrading, and painful. Those who experience physical orgasm are even more traumatized than those who don't. My inability to write it as it must be presented here, means I can't write it for publication here. No one falls in love with their rapist and wants to have his child.

I have often pondered the word therapist (including rapist)...
I guess sometimes, therapy is forced upon us. So yeah, maybe rape... LOL... Weak attempt at humour... Apologies.

Cagivagurl.

 

[Cagivagurl]

I've used a friend's idea on one of my non-cons. She was in a Dom/sub relationship with her b.f. and wanted him to surprise her with a forced/non-cons. He wouldn't do it because she wanted it to be pretty physical, and I had to agree with him.

But I modified her idea for a story where he would only do it as a form of theater-art, if that's the proper term. She was what I'd describe as highly intelligent, and a strong-minded submissive. In my story, she told her best friend, another school teacher about what she'd requested, and the friend after thinking about the idea, called her friend and asked if the boyfriend would consider adding her to theater-art. The boyfriend had them both sign an agreement that they wanted to participate in the re-enactment, which would be done by masked men, and no harm would come to them.

Hardly Non consensual seeing as how they requested it....

 

[WCSGarland]

Non consent, would be if either of the parties said no, and were physically forced into it. Like being sold into slavery...

And how are you so sure that this never happens?

 

[MillieDynamite]

A therapist is, in someone ways, like a rapist. They take you places you don't want to go, make you examine what's happened to you, which I never wanted to do, but in the end, she helped me where non of my rapist did.

 

[Cagivagurl]

And how are you so sure that this never happens?

I wasn't implying it didn't... At least not trying to. If I did, I apologise. Not what I intended to infer.
Merely that most / many merely accept it.
Some have been killed for refusing... Especially in cultures where the female is considered a liability...
Terrible situations, real life situations that are just as unacceptable as rape...
People die horrible deaths, are disfigured, maimed, none of which are acceptable...

Cagivagurl

 

[Katie_Mae]

The figure was not supposed to be exact. Just a random number.
I wasn't talking fantasy. I was talking real life...

Ah. I see. I was talking about NCR in terms of literature, rape fantasy etc. Nothing to do with being raped irl. I don't know anyone who actually wants to be raped irl, but NCR and rape fantasies are common amongst women.

A lot of the sex in the NCR stories I write/read is consensual.

Eg in my "raped in time" series is about a woman who uses her time stopping super power to try and get laid and experience things sexually she's never had the opportunity to do. She finds herself unable to let go and enjoy it, until she pretends that she's being raped. This allows her to shift the "blame." "I'm not dirty and depraved, he forced me."
She then feels guilty about what she's done, and the rest of the story explores the unintended coincidences of acting on her rape fantasy.
The fact that the sex was consensual, initiated by her and she had a super power she could use to stop it doesn't mean it's not a NCR story.

 

[Cagivagurl]

A therapist is, in someone ways, like a rapist. They take you places you don't want to go, make you examine what's happened to you, which I never wanted to do, but in the end, she helped me where non of my rapist did.

Yeah, a good point...
Therapy is not easy... I suppose we repress and squash those memories for a reason.
They're always there though, and when they surface. They bite.

Cagivagurl

 

[Cagivagurl]

Ah. I see. I was talking about NCR in terms of literature, rape fantasy etc. Nothing to do with being raped irl. I don't know anyone who actually wants to be raped irl, but NCR and rape fantasies are common amongst women.

A lot of the sex in the NCR stories I write/read is consensual.

Eg in my "raped in time" series is about a woman who uses her time stopping super power to try and get laid and experience things sexually she's never had the opportunity to do. She finds herself unable to let go and enjoy it, until she pretends that she's being raped. This allows her to shift the "blame." "I'm not dirty and depraved, he forced me."
She then feels guilty about what she's done, and the rest of the story explores the unintended coincidences of acting on her rape fantasy.
The fact that the sex was consensual, initiated by her and she had a super power she could use to stop it doesn't mean it's not a NCR story.

I don't agree with it being common among women... That would imply the figure was close to 50%, which I would argue.
Yes, there are people (All genders and sexualities included). Who do have the fantasy of loss of control, being forced.
I don't know the exact numbert, and really it's probably irrelevant for this discussion...
The point is, it's not Nonconsensual if you actually want it to happen...
Non consensual means it is against your will. You most definitely did not want it...
That is non consent. Or to give it, it's true name... Rape...
In my opinion, of course. I am not speaking on behalf of the human race, simply my thoughts.

Cagivagurl

 

[WCSGarland]

I wasn't implying it didn't... At least not trying to. If I did, I apologise. Not what I intended to infer.
Merely that most / many merely accept it.
Some have been killed for refusing... Especially in cultures where the female is considered a liability...
Terrible situations, real life situations that are just as unacceptable as rape...
People die horrible deaths, are disfigured, maimed, none of which are acceptable...

Cagivagurl

Okay, I can accept that it was not what you intended to imply. All I'm saying is that whenever one person does something that another person does not want them to, that is a form of non-consent. And technically, the NC/R category description is fantasies of control, which to my mind does not imply sex.

 

[WCSGarland]

The one time we tried light bondage and all my wife did was tickle me against my wishes instead of having sex with me... it didn't feel like rape, but it was definitely non-consensual.

 

[Cagivagurl]

Okay, I can accept that it was not what you intended to imply. All I'm saying is that whenever one person does something that another person does not want them to, that is a form of non-consent. And technically, the NC/R category description is fantasies of control, which to my mind does not imply sex.

Yes, agreed... It is about loss of control... And you are right, in regards to a lot of situations from life.
I sorta disagree with it's use in the category being non sexual though.
I never read non con stories, so I am working from assumption (Apologies) Most stories written for the category are sexual by nature.
My reference was about real non consensual sex. Rape...
Depicting the victim as enjoying rape... Sorry, I cannot accept that...
Dreaming / fantasising about it... Different story... Writing it as a real life situation. In my book, that is a step to far... IMO...

Cagivagurl

 

[Cagivagurl]

The one time we tried light bondage and all my wife did was tickle me against my wishes instead of having sex with me... it didn't feel like rape, but it was definitely non-consensual.

Yep, that I get.

 

[Katie_Mae]

I don't agree with it being common among women... That would imply the figure was close to 50%, which I would argue.
Yes, there are people (All genders and sexualities included). Who do have the fantasy of loss of control, being forced.
I don't know the exact numbert, and really it's probably irrelevant for this discussion...
The point is, it's not Nonconsensual if you actually want it to happen...
Non consensual means it is against your will. You most definitely did not want it...
That is non consent. Or to give it, it's true name... Rape...
In my opinion, of course. I am not speaking on behalf of the human race, simply my thoughts.

Cagivagurl

I will pull out the studies when I'm at my computer, but I'm sure it was over 50%

Just because you want it to happen, doesn't mean it's consensual. Not in the eyes of modern morality or in the laws of many countries. I could elaborate, but this is a discussion on non-con and reluctance fantasies (enemies to lovers tropes etc), not a lesson in real world consent and I don't want to derail the topic further

 

[Cagivagurl]

I will pull out the studies when I'm at my computer, but I'm sure it was over 50%

Just because you want it to happen, doesn't mean it's consensual. Not in the eyes of modern morality or in the laws of many countries. I could elaborate, but this is a discussion on non-con and reluctance fantasies (enemies to lovers tropes etc), not a lesson in real world consent and I don't want to derail the topic further

I'm sorry, but your comment is confusing to me...
Let's remove real life... If we are talking fantasy only...
If you fantasise about something, and it gives you pleasure, and within that fantasy. Want it to happen. Then it is by definition, consensual... Surely???

Cagivagurl

 

[SimonDoom]

I don't think we have to wander into the weeds of what percentage of women have these fantasies. Some do. That's all we need to know. This site provides a space for people to explore fantasies, including fantasies about things they would never, ever want to experience in real life.

I agree with Cagivagurl that if we're being intellectually honest we admit that nonconsent is, morally speaking, the same thing as rape. It may not involve violence or harm but morally it's the same thing. That's the weird and difficult hurdle with this kink -- admitting being turned on by a fantasy of actual nonconsensual sex, something we all know is wrong. Reasonable people can disagree about the morality of adult consensual incest. But we all know that nonconsensual sex is wrong, even if we fantasize about it.

I'm not talking about consensual non-con. That exists, too, and some people like it, but I think the core of real nonconsensual erotica is that it is, in fact, not consensual, in any way. The transgressive element is part of what turns people on.

And that's OK.

I have yet to publish a story in this category, but I have a long-term story I've been working on. It's challenging and interesting. I don't want it to be a total eye-roller. I think it's the most challenging type of story to write the right way.

 

[WCSGarland]

I don't think we have to wander into the weeds of what percentage of women have these fantasies. Some do. That's all we need to know. This site provides a space for people to explore fantasies, including fantasies about things they would never, ever want to experience in real life.

I agree with Cagivagurl that if we're being intellectually honest we admit that nonconsent is, morally speaking, the same thing as rape. It may not involve violence or harm but morally it's the same thing. That's the weird and difficult hurdle with this kink -- admitting being turned on by a fantasy of actual nonconsensual sex, something we all know is wrong. Reasonable people can disagree about the morality of adult consensual incest. But we all know that nonconsensual sex is wrong, even if we fantasize about it.

I'm not talking about consensual non-con. That exists, too, and some people like it, but I think the core of real nonconsensual erotica is that it is, in fact, not consensual, in any way. The transgressive element is part of what turns people on.

And that's OK.

I have yet to publish a story in this category, but I have a long-term story I've been working on. It's challenging and interesting. I don't want it to be a total eye-roller. I think it's the most challenging type of story to write the right way.

You are free to disagree, but I do not find your arguments convincing.

 

[SimonDoom]

You are free to disagree, but I do not find your arguments convincing.

I'm curious: which ones, and why?

I don't mind at all if you disagree. This is a thorny subject. I'm curious.

 

[Katie_Mae]

I'm sorry, but your comment is confusing to me...
Let's remove real life... If we are talking fantasy only...
If you fantasise about something, and it gives you pleasure, and within that fantasy. Want it to happen. Then it is by definition, consensual... Surely???

Cagivagurl

Are you asking if I consentually have fantasies, or if my fantasies only depict relationships that are not-reluctant and and entirely consential?

The first is very difficult to answer. Are dreams consentual? No... I suppose not.

But let's say there's a man I fantasise about. Really want to fuck, on some level, but I never would, because he's my best friend and I don't want to ruin the friendship so would never fuck him, or he's my boss so due to power imbalances he can't fuck me, or he's my teacher, or I'm his teacher, or I'm married or he is or a million other reasons why two people want to fuck but won't or can't consent.

But fuck, he's hot. And kind. And caring. And he probably thinks nothing sexual about me... but what if he did? What if he was as into me as I am into him? But, if so, he would never... and I would never... but what if, what if we were captured by aliens who force us to have sex as part of an experiment? Or what if we were both really drunk? Too drunk to legally (or morally) consent? What if he was stung by an insect which caused him to go on a sex-crazed-rampage where he didn't know what he was doing and he raped me? What if something happened to make the sex I desire so much to happen, but the sex isn't my "fault."

It's not consenting if aliens force you. It's not consenting if you're too drunk to consent. It's not consent if he is attacked by a mythical insect and will fuck you whether you want it or not. If you don't have the power to say no, then it's not freely given consent.

 

[WCSGarland]

I'm curious: which ones, and why?

I don't mind at all if you disagree. This is a thorny subject. I'm curious.

I do not find the assertion that non-consent is, morally speaking, the same thing as rape - for one. The story could involve kidnapping and then the captor and kidnapped end up having consensual sex. That kidnapping is non-consensual, but through the change of circumstances, it would not be rape.

 

[WCSGarland]

One of my very favorite NCR stories is The Taming Of The Shrew by William Shakespeare.