How do you navigate Non-Con

[Katie_Mae]

I do not find the assertion that non-consent is, morally speaking, the same thing as rape - for one. The story could involve kidnapping and then the captor and kidnapped end up having consensual sex. That kidnapping is non-consensual, but through the change of circumstances, it would not be rape.

I don't know about that. To me, I think it would still be rape, due to to power-imbalance between kidnapper and kidnapee (is that a word?) removing the ability for the person kidnapped to consent.

It is possible, though, that one, the other, or neither of them viewed it as rape. eg the kidnapper may have believed it constituted consent, and/or the kidnapped may have believed they were giving consent.

Either way, the story would, in my eyes, belong in the NCR category (NCR standing for Non-consent and reluctance)

 

[Britva415]

When you watch a romance movie, if you ask yourself "if this happened irl, would this be sexual harassment?" "What if he was ugly/poor?" "Is there a significant power difference?" "Does she really feel like she can safely say no?" "What if she did say no?" Then you'll find a lot of non-con answers.

In mainstream media it's just billed as "romance," but here on Lit we have the option to call it "non-con," should we wish to do so.

This was completely brilliant. I don't expect I'll ever want to write NC but if I do, I'll remember this.

 

[WCSGarland]

I don't know about that. To me, I think it would still be rape, due to to power-imbalance between kidnapper and kidnapee (is that a word?) removing the ability for the person kidnapped to consent.

It is possible, though, that one, the other, or neither of them viewed it as rape. eg the kidnapper may have believed it constituted consent, and/or the kidnapped may have believed they were giving consent.

Either way, the story would, in my eyes, belong in the NCR category (NCR standing for Non-consent and reluctance)

I could have elaborated on the changing circumstances of course, for instance if she ended up willingly participating and receiving compensation in the kidnapping scheme and falling in love with the kidnapper... damn my inconsistency of leaving out the niggling details.

 

[beliefofmine]

I don't think we have to wander into the weeds of what percentage of women have these fantasies. Some do. That's all we need to know. This site provides a space for people to explore fantasies, including fantasies about things they would never, ever want to experience in real life.

I agree with Cagivagurl that if we're being intellectually honest we admit that nonconsent is, morally speaking, the same thing as rape. It may not involve violence or harm but morally it's the same thing. That's the weird and difficult hurdle with this kink -- admitting being turned on by a fantasy of actual nonconsensual sex, something we all know is wrong. Reasonable people can disagree about the morality of adult consensual incest. But we all know that nonconsensual sex is wrong, even if we fantasize about it.

I'm not talking about consensual non-con. That exists, too, and some people like it, but I think the core of real nonconsensual erotica is that it is, in fact, not consensual, in any way. The transgressive element is part of what turns people on.

And that's OK.

I have yet to publish a story in this category, but I have a long-term story I've been working on. It's challenging and interesting. I don't want it to be a total eye-roller. I think it's the most challenging type of story to write the right way.

It's interesting that you liken the morally objectionable nature to that of incest. Because I can understand as someone who is aroused and fantasizes about incest but find it completely wrong in reality. Rape isn't one of my turn ons but I think its important to be able to put yourself in someone else's shoes.

 

[Britva415]

whenever one person does something that another person does not want them to, that is a form of non-consent

Well, consent isn't always required or even appropriate.

If I have a neighbor who, I don't know, let's say they voted contrary to my wishes, then sure, you can technically say I didn't consent to that, but, calling it "a form of non-consent" is really blowing it violently out of proportion.

I did see the other examples you cited, and I think not all of them are in fact a matter of consent.

Not in the sense that the "non-consenting" person has any right whatsoever to have their wishes respected.

Are two people having some generic conflict both violating each other's consent? There isn't always a "right side." And sometimes there really, really is, and the "non-consenting" person isn't on it.

 

[WCSGarland]

Well, consent isn't always required or even appropriate.

If I have a neighbor who, I don't know, let's say they voted contrary to my wishes, then sure, you can technically say I didn't consent to that, but, calling it "a form of non-consent" is really blowing it violently out of proportion.

I did see the other examples you cited, and I think not all of them are in fact a matter of consent.

Not in the sense that the "non-consenting" person has any right whatsoever to have their wishes respected.

Are two people having some generic conflict both violating each other's consent? There isn't always a "right side." And sometimes there really, really is, and the "non-consenting" person isn't on it.

With respect to interpersonal interactions between two people (or however many are in the NCR story or transaction under reference), it is not blowing it violently out of proportion, unless of course you agree that you are in this instance guilty of the same.

 

[Britva415]

With respect to interpersonal interactions between two people (or however many are in the NCR story or transaction under reference), it is not blowing it violently out of proportion, unless of course you agree that you are in this instance guilty of the same.

guilty of what, now?

Blowing something out of proportion?

All I'm saying is calling all disagreements and all conflicting wishes "a form of non-consent" is hyperbolic.

It's like... vacuously true but

 

[Katie_Mae]

That's the weird and difficult hurdle with this kink -- admitting being turned on by a fantasy of actual nonconsensual sex, something we all know is wrong.

I will agree there's a lot of shame about non-con and reluctant fantasies. We know we're not supposed to like them... but we do... (speaking for those of us who have these fantasies, of course, not those who don't)

I think this is one reason why there's so much NCR hidden throughout mainstream film and literature, disguised as something else. "Oh, it's not reluctance, it's seduction" or "Even though it's a forced marriage, the both have the hots for each other so now it's romantic, not non-con" etc.

I read a lot in the NCR section, but very little of what I read depicts what you'd imagine when you imagine a "real world rape." That could be because that's not what I want to read, but it also shows the category is more varied than what a person who has never read it might think.

For me, I want to read about women with barriers which prevent them experiencing and/or enjoying their sexual desires, experiencing and enjoying those sexual desires. NCR does that (for me). It's about a woman enjoying what society says she shouldn't.

 

[WCSGarland]

guilty of what, now?

Blowing something out of proportion?

All I'm saying is calling all disagreements and all conflicting wishes "a form of non-consent" is hyperbolic.

It's like... vacuously true but

My point was that non-consent is not necessarily rape in as much as it can pertain to other actions that do not have consent between the characters in the story. All situations that I used as examples could be used aside from rape and have the story fall under that non-consent label.

Seriously, if a woman gets pregnant by a man and puts him under the onus of child support for raising that child he didn't want, is that not non-consent?

 

[SimonDoom]

It's interesting that you liken the morally objectionable nature to that of incest. Because I can understand as someone who is aroused and fantasizes about incest but find it completely wrong in reality. Rape isn't one of my turn ons but I think its important to be able to put yourself in someone else's shoes.

To be clear, I'm not drawing a moral equivalence. My point is the contrary: Many of us can see adult consensual incest as OK, but most if not all of us would see truly nonconsensual conduct as wrong. Yet people can still fantasize about it.

 

[Katie_Mae]

My point was that non-consent is not necessarily rape in as much as it can pertain to other actions that do not have consent between the characters in the story. All situations that I used as examples could be used aside from rape and have the story fall under that non-consent label.

Seriously, if a woman gets pregnant by a man and puts him under the onus of child support for raising that child he didn't want, is that not non-consent?

The legal definition of rape differs in different countries.

Eg some places define it as the penis entering the vagina without the consent of the person with the vagina and other places define it much more broadly.

Some NCR stories don't involve sex so much. Sometimes it's exhibition. Or spanking. Or forcing your maid to wear a really short skirt. Things which would, legally in the real world, be classed as assault or sexual assault or harassment. Things that are always wrong in the real world... of course, but which aren't always legally defined as rape.

And of course, the category includes reluctance, as well as non-consent.

 

[alohadave]

I could have elaborated on the changing circumstances of course, for instance if she ended up willingly participating and receiving compensation in the kidnapping scheme and falling in love with the kidnapper... damn my inconsistency of leaving out the niggling details.

This is a subplot in The Bourne Identity (the original book, not the novelization of the movies). They end up getting married.

 

[WCSGarland]

This is a subplot in The Bourne Identity (the original book, not the novelization of the movies). They end up getting married.

I've read exactly one of the Bourne books. It wasn't that one, but thanks for the info.

 

[Katie_Mae]

Ok, the boring statistics and a bunch of rambling for those interested.

It's a long post and not everyone is interested in if non-consent and reluctance fantasies are common or not, so I'll spoiler it.

[SPOILER]
Firstly, my statement was

NCR and rape fantasies are common amongst women

By this, I'm not only speaking about rape fantasies. NCR means non-consent and reluctance.

To define "non-consent" It includes some sexual acts (including but not limited to sex) occurring prior to consent being expressly and freely given. If there is a reason (real or imagined) that a person cannot safely say "no" then this is not consent. A person "wanting it, but not consenting" isn't consent. During or after the non-consensual acts, the person may or may not give consent. he key to it being non-consent is at least some of the acts occur prior to consent, or in a situation where a person is unable to give consent.

An example of non-consent, the wedding between Claire and Jamie in the first season of outlander. The two of them obviously have the hots for each other, but they're pushed into a marriage before either of them are ready to consider marriage. Then, on their wedding night, they're stuck into a room in an inn to consummate it. They both do give consent, but they don't have much choice. Realistically, could Claire really have said no? Was it safe for her to say no? For those who haven't seen it, she was a woman from the 20th century, magicked back to the 18th century, I'm pretty sure "marital rape" wasn't illegal back then.

A more general example of non-con you see in mainstream media, is when the guy kisses the girl without asking first. She momentarily resists, and then realises she wants it after all and gives in. This is a non-con kiss, because the kiss begins before giving consent.

"Reluctance" is when a person declines and their pursuer changes their mind. In reluctance, consent is given prior to sexual acts.

An example of reluctance is the relationship between Elizabeth Bennet and Fitzwilliam Darcy in Pride and Prejudice, which is a rather well known novel so I'm going to assume everyone has read it, or is at least familiar with the plot.

"Reluctance" can been seen across many tropes and themes, friends to lovers, seduction etc. Think about popular romance movies, chances are you've seen one where the woman rejects the man, only to consent later.


When I said NCR and rape fantasies were common amongst women, I was talking about ALL NCR and rape fantasies, not ONLY rape fantasies.

I guess I don't have any evidence that these are "common," because we don't have an agreed threshold of "common," but if you look at "top 10 grossing romance novels of all time" lists you will see novels which feature the above fantasies.

Literotica NCR section has over 40k stories, and mind control over 13K. Personally, I consider mind control to be a form of non-consent, which is why I bring that up. These numbers aren't teeny-tiny comparative to other categories, suggesting that there is prevalence of people here that have this fantasy. Recognising, of course, that many erotic story sites don't allow non-con, so this probably skews the number higher.

Next, lets look at rape fantasies, which doesn't include things like reluctance or (presumably) sexual acts which aren't sex.

Firstly, in this entire thread (and everywhere else I've ever talked about it) I've only spoken about women having rape fantasies. This is partly because I'm a woman, and I can't really speak for others. And partly because I assumed it was more of a woman's fantasy. However cagivagurl commented

Yes, there are people (All genders and sexualities included). Who do have the fantasy of loss of control, being forced.

So I decided to do a quick google. According to a book based on an survey involving 4,000 Americans:

• 61% of self-identified women had fantasized about this before, while 24% said they fantasized about it often.
• 54% of self-identified men had fantasized about this before, while 11.5% said they fantasized about it often.
• 68% of non-binary participants had fantasized about this before, while 31% said they fantasized about it often.

So I was wrong, these aren't just a common fantasy for women, it's a fantasy men and non-binary people have too.

As to the studies... note that these studies are simply some that a friend happened to share with me recently, I haven't gone looking for more recent studies, I haven't researched this as such. If anyone has any more recent/better studies then I'm interested. I don't think I'm allowed to link these here, so I'll have to quote.

JOURNAL OF SEX RESEARCH, 46(1), 33–45, 2009
The Nature of Women’s Rape Fantasies: An Analysis of Prevalence, Frequency, and Contents

This study evaluated the rape fantasies of female undergraduates (N = 355) using a fantasy checklist that reflected the legal definition of rape and a sexual fantasy log that included systematic prompts and self-ratings. Results indicated that 62% of women have had a rape fantasy, which is somewhat higher than previous estimates

JOURNAL OF SEX RESEARCH, 45(1), 57–70, 2008

Women’s Erotic Rape Fantasies: An Evaluation of Theory and Research Joseph W. Critelli and Jenny M. Bivona
Current research indicates that between 31% and 57% of women have fantasies in which they are forced into sex against their will, and for 9% to 17% of women these are a frequent or favorite fantasy experience.

The 2009 study didn't interview many women at all, but the 2008 paper looked at many studies, which themselves looked at varying numbers of women,

eg Hunt (1974), N=1,044 19% and Hariton & Singer(1974) N = 141 49%

These studies asked about rape fantasies, not other forms of non-con or reluctance. If they said "how many people like Beauty and the Beast" I hope the number would be much lower than 10%! (a little joke, that's not my favourite NCR story, lol!)
[/SPOILER]

 

[AlinaX]

This seems to me a bizarre way to define reluctance, and an especially strange choice of example.

An example of reluctance is the relationship between Elizabeth Bennet and Fitzwilliam Darcy in Pride and Prejudice, which is a rather well known novel so I'm going to assume everyone has read it, or is at least familiar with the plot.

FD proposes to EB who rejects him, and afterwards under no compulsion from him changes her mind and falls in love, and after a few twists and turns they acknowledge a mutual attraction.

I guess I tend to see Reluctance as where consent is given but it's not enthusiastic consent. It's dubious consent where the coercion is mostly internal. I don't particularly want to do this, but it's convenient to let it happen.

For example: I don't particularly enjoy anal but my boyfriend loves it and I know his ex was into it. It's a small price to pay to stop him straying.

Or: I'm not in the mood for sex, but the wife's in bed dressed in lacy lingerie and she'll be moaning all day tomorrow if she doesn't get what she wants.

And the classic: Well, he has paid, seems clean and doesn't seem to be a psycho. A girl's got to make a living...

ETA: The most erotic forms of NCR are where it's, On some level I really do want to do this, but it's not permitted, i.e., the character is being forced to do what they would never normally allow. (Sometimes Mind Control stories focus on removing inhibitions and fit in the same category.) Stories that play on this theme can be deeply problematic and work best when you really get into the victim's head and feel the pleasure and conflict.

 

[Katie_Mae]

This seems to me a bizarre way to define reluctance, and an especially strange choice of example.

FD proposes to EB who rejects him, and afterwards under no compulsion from him changes her mind and falls in love, and after a few twists and turns they acknowledge a mutual attraction.

I guess I tend to see Reluctance as where consent is given but it's not enthusiastic consent. It's dubious consent where the coercion is mostly internal. I don't particularly want to do this, but it's convenient to let it happen.

For example: I don't particularly enjoy anal but my boyfriend loves it and I know his ex was into it. It's a small price to pay to stop him straying.

Or: I'm not in the mood for sex, but the wife's in bed dressed in lacy lingerie and she'll be moaning all day tomorrow if she doesn't get what she wants.

And the classic: Well, he has paid, seems clean and doesn't seem to be a psycho. A girl's got to make a living...

We can't agree what rape is, it's unlikely we're going to come to an agreement on reluctance

I would agree though, your examples are also examples of reluctance.

 

[vagrantx]

Have to admit, I skimmed the thread. I think it focuses on the wrong thing, the morality of rape and non-con, which isn't in question when a story is approved/appreciated or not.

The rules say that the victim has to get some enjoyment out of the ordeal. What's enjoyment? Physical pleasure? Possibly. At least according to Lit.

I've written several non-con stories, where the sexual acts are most definitely, unarguably, rapes. The theme isn't man-on-woman penis-in-vagina, but enforced sensations by machinery, but I digress. Still rape.

Now for my tip on what's allowed on the site, how should you write it, where is the line drawn? Avoid physical pain and violence. The only story I've had that was repeatedly denied submission was one where the focus was on pain, rather than pleasure. I re-wrote it several times, to the point where all physical pain was replaced by pleasure, and then it was approved. Even though all other elements remained the same, and I even dialed the mental anguish up several notches to keep in line with my vision of the story.

But how should someone write about this without it either seemingly too forced or too consensual that it loses the plot?

If you wish to write a story in non-con, have your focus be on the victims mental reluctance and how they deal with physical pleasure in spite of said reluctance. How would one do that without the sci-fi Sex-bot McGuffin? No freaking clue, sorry.

 

[AlinaX]

Wait... There's a sci-fi sexbot McGuffin? Does she have red hair and freckles?

 

[vagrantx]

Wait... There's a sci-fi sexbot McGuffin? Does she have red hair and freckles?

She's more like, hm, I wanna say gun-metal grey with specks of rust?

 

[RoperTrace]

Hardly Non consensual seeing as how they requested it....

True, but 'they' wanted to get it published on Lit.com

 

[SimonDoom]

We can't agree what rape is, it's unlikely we're going to come to an agreement on reluctance

I would agree though, your examples are also examples of reluctance.

Debates over definitions are, by their nature, not meaningful. Debates over values and perceptions of reality are meaningful.

You said this above:

For me, I want to read about women with barriers which prevent them experiencing and/or enjoying their sexual desires, experiencing and enjoying those sexual desires. NCR does that (for me). It's about a woman enjoying what society says she shouldn't.

That makes sense. It informs the way you look at the category. Others have their own ways of looking at it.

I don't see Pride and Prejudice as nonconsent. Unequal power does not make nonconsent. If that were true, then no interaction would be consensual, because true inequality between partners in every way is the exception, not the norm.

If two people drink alcohol and are somewhat impaired and have sex, is that nonconsensual? The law says no, and common sense says no. A huge percentage of sex happens when people are drunk. Obviously, that can't all be regarded as nonconsensual.

But based on your own personal experience, you may see things differently, and certain things may turn you on as "nonconsent" that make others shrug their shoulders. That's perfectly fine.

 

[yowser]

Like many here, I am not much a fan of the category, mostly since it seems to lean into the 'non-consent' element more than the 'reluctance' angle which to me has far more interesting characteristics, at least for written stories. Sex is so multi-layered and complicated that I suspect it is a rare person who hasn't had some sort of 'reluctance' experience, one way or another, for any one out a range of reasons.

As for non-con fantasies, I was surprised at the breadth and range of some of the desire-accounts outlined in a recent book: Want / submitted by anonymous ; collected by Gillian Anderson. For those interested in these sorts of fantasies (and non-con is only one of the chapters), which all come from women, these narrations may prove instructive.

 

[FidelityBoss]

I've been thinking about writing several stories, and one of the stories involved a forced/non-con event.

This is undoubtedly a touchy subject in any sphere. I do want the character to ultimately enjoy the the experience in the story at the end. But how should someone write about this without it either seemingly too forced or too consensual that it loses the plot?

If they're consenting from the beginning is it really non-con/forced? And if they're not, are you skirting the rules about forced/non-con?

Let me know your thoughts.

~Beliefofmine

Writing about non-con or forced scenarios is definitely tricky, especially if you want the character to eventually enjoy the experience. The key is to handle it with care and sensitivity, making sure the power dynamics and emotional complexity are clear. If the consent shifts over time, it’s important to show that progression naturally and believably. Just be mindful of the rules and the audience’s expectations, it’s a fine line to walk.

 

[FidelityBoss]

It can be a tough category to write. Personally I believe it is 'legitimate' as a fantasy - but of course there are some who would say otherwise, so you have to go into it with the conviction of your fantasy preferences. I have decided it's important to me to add the dreaded 'disclaimer' at the front, just to make it unambiguous to any reader that this fantasy should not be in any way confused with real life.

The NC/R readership is pretty positive, by and large. You may get a smattering of "1s" for any story just from people voting against the category on principle (at least that's my impression). And readers there probably comment and vote less than average. But there are a lot of readers, so it balances out.

The OP hit the nail on the head in terms of the basic challenge. This is a fantasy about something that, if real, would be terribly ugly. So these stories have to dabble in the ugliness enough to trigger the fantasy, without becoming so ugly that they ruin the fantasy. Probably that line varies for different people.

As another poster said, various types of non-force based coercion (blackmail, bets, inducements, substance-impairment, etc.) can play a part. The dreaded "they have to enjoy it" rule does serve a role, as it creates a way to muddy the waters, even if it can also be sort of limiting and ridiculous. There is also a wide range of what the "non-consent" can look like in the category, from consensual-nonconsensuality (role-play) to more-or-less reluctance up to unambiguous non-consent. So you can definitely take it in the direction you personally prefer.

From the start, it's probably good to understand that you almost certainly NOT going for "realism" - that would be awful. Rather, you're shooting for what I think of as "a certain sort of plausibility," which will again probably vary in its particulars from person to person.

Writing NC/R is definitely a balancing act, keeping it dark enough to fit the fantasy but not so dark it becomes unreadable. The disclaimer is a smart move, and playing with different levels of coercion can add layers to the story. It’s all about finding that plausibility that works for the fantasy without crossing into real life ugliness. Tough category, but it sounds like you’ve got a solid approach!

 

[Audiflex]

I've been thinking about writing several stories, and one of the stories involved a forced/non-con event.

This is undoubtedly a touchy subject in any sphere. I do want the character to ultimately enjoy the the experience in the story at the end. But how should someone write about this without it either seemingly too forced or too consensual that it loses the plot?

If they're consenting from the beginning is it really non-con/forced? And if they're not, are you skirting the rules about forced/non-con?

Let me know your thoughts.

~Beliefofmine

This is definitely a tricky and sensitive topic to tackle. If the character ends up enjoying the experience, it’s crucial to handle their emotional journey with care and realism. Starting with non-con and shifting to enjoyment can come off as problematic if not done thoughtfully, as it risks trivializing trauma or sending the wrong message.

If you’re set on this plot, consider exploring complex power dynamics or psychological shifts that make the character’s feelings evolve in a believable way. But tread carefully, this is a minefield, and it’s easy to alienate or upset readers. Maybe ask yourself why this specific dynamic is important to the story and if there’s a way to achieve the same emotional impact without venturing into such controversial territory. Always prioritize respect and sensitivity when dealing with heavy themes like this.