How much do you take away from readers comments or suggestions?

[Bramblethorn]

So, for example, regarding your question about BDSM, the only real question is whether it will satisfy Laurel's rules. My understanding, based on my reading of her rules and TX Tall Tales' helpful essay, is that if nonconsent is a major theme of the story that's where it's going to go, even if it has BDSM elements.

As I already mentioned in this discussion, this is incorrect: BDSM regularly gets "kidnapped and enslaved" type stories where nonconsent is a major theme. I would have preferred not to give examples, since it's not my intention to encourage anybody to target specific stories, but if my say-so wasn't enough I guess I'll have to link a couple. Maybe have a look at these and tell me whether they seem consensual to you?

https://www.literotica.com/beta/s/the-coiled-mask-night-one (whole series)
https://www.literotica.com/beta/s/kidnapped-into-sexual-slavery

Again, this is not an invitation for anybody to go bomb/flame those stories.

 

[Ginlover]

As gay stories have now been mentioned along with consent I’ll give a little history
SSC safe sane and consensual was developed by the BDSM leather community. Gay men coined the phrase because of the AIDS epidemic. It was latterly taken on by heterosexual kinksters.

Language evolves

RACK risk aware consensual kink came from people saying kink is not always safe or sane - beating someone until there are open wounds is an activity some masochists enthusiastically consent to.

A more recent one is PRICK personal responsibility in consensual kink, this came about to reduce the perception the dominant or top is the only person responsible for safety in a scene. It’s a two (or more) way dynamic with all parties having a personal responsibility.

I’m sure language will progress, but the one consistent word is consent. In a world which is more online than ever, thanks to Covid, people are using online information to shape or have relationships. I do think flagging consent is needed in a BDSM story is valid and reasonable.

Animals can’t consent - they can’t be part of a BDSM scene. Same applies to minors, dead people, people without the capacity to consent as defined in laws are not doing BDSM. And any one forced into sex against their explicit consent, by someone claiming to be a Dom is not involved in a BDSM activity - they are being abused.

 

[MartaMaine]

Have had an interesting comment on my only (so far) published story.

Hm. You don't seem to know how to use the most basic punctuation. You must put a comma after dialogue when it's followed by a speech tag. You do it wrong every single time. Example:

'It's fine(COMMA)' I said. 'I was still awake anyway.'

I'm not saying they're wrong but is it pedantry gone too far?

"You don't seem to know how to use the most basic punctuation" seems a little harsh to me.

 

[Landshark1]

Have had an interesting comment on my only (so far) published story.



I'm not saying they're wrong but is it pedantry gone too far?

"You don't seem to know how to use the most basic punctuation" seems a little harsh to me.

Your story was amazing, I highly recomend it to everyone.

 

[MartaMaine]

Your story was amazing, I highly recomend it to everyone.

Thank you

 

[ElectricBlue]

Have had an interesting comment on my only (so far) published story.

I'm not saying they're wrong but is it pedantry gone too far?

"You don't seem to know how to use the most basic punctuation" seems a little harsh to me.

I'd say, "Pay attention," because if they're right, it's something you need to fix for your second story. Quietly learning from your mistakes is probably wiser than calling out those who are right. Just make sure you don't get the same comment next time, because poor punctuation is the most obvious and most fixable error you can make. That, and tense shifting. Don't worry, we've all made those fixable mistakes.

 

[MartaMaine]

I'd say, "Pay attention," because if they're right, it's something you need to fix for your second story. Quietly learning from your mistakes is probably wiser than calling out those who are right. Just make sure you don't get the same comment next time, because poor punctuation is the most obvious and most fixable error you can make. That, and tense shifting. Don't worry, we've all made those fixable mistakes.

I have no problem with the advice, it"s purely the tone that took me aback. It seems to be purely the punctuation in the quotes that appears to be the issue and I'm really not sure that this means that I don't know how to use the most basic punctuation.

The advice is probably correct, but there's no need to put this in a comment under a story. If they really care about it, they could send such advice in a Private Feedback, in a more friendly tone.

If it comes from an Anon, it's probably an attempt to belittle the author; if it comes from someone else, it may be their attempt to seek attention on themselves.

It's up to you what to do with these comments. Regardless of the tone, I think it's good advice, so take it with you. You could leave the comment, you could reply to it (e.g. 'Thanks for the advice; I'll take it with me. My advice to you; it's easier to take advice when it's offered in a friendly way.') or you could remove it.

Indeed.

I don't really want to reply as I don't feel that the comments section is the right place for that sort of discussion, especially with someone posting anonymously.

I thought about removing the comment but I thought it may seem petty.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I have no problem with the advice, it"s purely the tone that took me aback. It seems to be purely the punctuation in the quotes that appears to be the issue and I'm really not sure that this means that I don't know how to use the most basic punctuation.

...
Indeed.

I don't really want to reply as I don't feel that the comments section is the right place for that sort of discussion, especially with someone posting anonymously.

I thought about removing the comment but I thought it may seem petty.

To be honest, on your first story, I'd take the comment on the chin - which I guess you have by bringing it here - celebrate your first grammar Nazi and just make sure it's your last.

 

[SimonDoom]

I'm not saying they're wrong but is it pedantry gone too far?

"You don't seem to know how to use the most basic punctuation" seems a little harsh to me.

That's an unnecessarily harsh way of making the point, but they do have a point. I'm enough of a punctuation stickler that this is one that bugs me. I strongly recommend that every author should master the basics of dialogue. There are some good "how to" essays at Literotica that explain how to do this.

Your very first sentence:

"Morning Matt." Lucy said.

Should be

"Morning Matt," Lucy said.

The tag is part of the sentence, so you can't separate the two segments with a period.

If the tag begins with a common rather than proper noun, don't capitalize it:

"Morning Matt," she said.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I have no problem with the advice, it"s purely the tone that took me aback. It seems to be purely the punctuation in the quotes that appears to be the issue and I'm really not sure that this means that I don't know how to use the most basic punctuation.

I think you're right there. Having read your story - yes, that one point of punctuation could do with work, but it's an unnecessarily rude way to deliver that feedback. Lots of authors trip up on punctuating speech for some reason.

 

[MartaMaine]

Thanks for all the advice, I'll make sure any future submissions are corrected.

 

[SimonDoom]

As I already mentioned in this discussion, this is incorrect: BDSM regularly gets "kidnapped and enslaved" type stories where nonconsent is a major theme. I would have preferred not to give examples, since it's not my intention to encourage anybody to target specific stories, but if my say-so wasn't enough I guess I'll have to link a couple. Maybe have a look at these and tell me whether they seem consensual to you?

https://www.literotica.com/beta/s/the-coiled-mask-night-one (whole series)
https://www.literotica.com/beta/s/kidnapped-into-sexual-slavery

Again, this is not an invitation for anybody to go bomb/flame those stories.

I scanned Coiled Mask. Obviously, the encounter is not consensual. I assume the author put it in BDSM because the role of rope. But to me, the main erotic vibe is nonconsent, and if I were the author that's where I'd put it.

Same thing with the Kidnapped story. The way I see it the erotic "zing" from sex slavery stories is the nonconsent element, and I personally, as an author, would put all such stories in nonconsent even if there are heavy elements of bondage, D/s, sadism, etc.

But my broader reaction to this is, so what? The authors of these two stories saw it differently, and put it in BDSM, and . . . so? So Laurel's screening isn't perfect. Taxonomic perfection is, as I see it, a completely trivial value here, and it seems odd to me that some see it as akin to a moral imperative.

I'll note that with both of these stories the majority of comments were positive, although one of the commenters on Kidnapped faulted the story for its unrealistic depiction of a D/s relationship.

The SOLE purpose of categorization, as I see it, is practical -- enhancing the ability of readers to find stories they like. There's no moral element in it. I don't feel that the categorization guidelines regarding BDSM have any duty whatsoever to adhere to IRL BDSM community concepts of what is proper BDSM.

50 Shades evidently offended a lot of BDSM enthusiasts. But if that story were published at Literotica, it obviously would belong in BDSM, regardless. The universe of people who enjoy reading these stories is much, much larger than the universe of people who regularly engage in BDSM IRL, or who care about its community standards, and they matter just as much. No one reader's perspective counts more than any other's.

 

[PoisonPen33]

And anyone forced into sex against their explicit consent, by someone claiming to be a Dom is not involved in a BDSM activity - they are being abused.

I'm going to take this opportunity to ask a question that's kind of related.

What's the difference between "Nonconsensual/Reluctance" and "abuse?"

 

[Ginlover]

I'm going to take this opportunity to ask a question that's kind of related.

What's the difference between "Nonconsensual/Reluctance" and "abuse?"

On here nothing. It’s a category where the only requirement is the victim gains sexual pleasure from the interaction. But in BDSM non consent and forced (forced Bi being a good example) there is pre agreed consent and usually a safe word to immediately halt a scene - but a safe word isn’t always present.

In a CNC consensual non consent dynamic the people involved have communicated and mutually agreed the top/s can take on a scene with the bottom/s during which words like no and fighting back are ignored. It should be noted in a CNC scene or dynamic where a safe word has been agreed this is never ignored when said.

If I’m with a man and say I want to play out a rape scene and I want him to continue as I try and fight him off, and he agrees, I can then scream “stop” “no” and try and hit him or scratch him to get him off me. He will continue to have sex with me. If I scream “pineapple” and he knows it’s our pre agreed safe word he stops immediately, drops his rapist character and checks in with me. He can call the safe word too. A well aim crotch kick can cause a top to stop a scene lol.

The difference is communication, pre agreed limits and consent. Pre agreed limits might be no anal or blood drawn.

 

[PoisonPen33]

On here nothing. It’s a category where the only requirement is the victim gains sexual pleasure from the interaction. But in BDSM non consent and forced (forced Bi being a good example) there is pre agreed consent and usually a safe word to immediately halt a scene - but a safe word isn’t always present.

In a CNC consensual non consent dynamic the people involved have communicated and mutually agreed the top/s can take on a scene with the bottom/s during which words like no and fighting back are ignored. It should be noted in a CNC scene or dynamic where a safe word has been agreed this is never ignored when said.

If I’m with a man and say I want to play out a rape scene and I want him to continue as I try and fight him off, and he agrees, I can then scream “stop” “no” and try and hit him or scratch him to get him off me. He will continue to have sex with me. If I scream “pineapple” and he knows it’s our pre agreed safe word he stops immediately, drops his rapist character and checks in with me. He can call the safe word too. A well aim crotch kick can cause a top to stop a scene lol.

The difference is communication, pre agreed limits and consent. Pre agreed limits might be no anal or blood drawn.

Thank you for the on-site and off-site explanations!

 

[KeithD]

- - - -

Erased because I see it was taken care of in earlier comments.

 

[gunhilltrain]

I'd say, "Pay attention," because if they're right, it's something you need to fix for your second story. Quietly learning from your mistakes is probably wiser than calling out those who are right. Just make sure you don't get the same comment next time, because poor punctuation is the most obvious and most fixable error you can make. That, and tense shifting. Don't worry, we've all made those fixable mistakes.

Grammarly seems to do a passable job with punctuation, although sometimes it's a judgment call. (It's software, not a human mind.) But I haven't been called out on punctuation since I started using it. That plus human proofreading helps a lot.

 

[AvroAnson]

In a CNC consensual non consent dynamic the people involved have communicated and mutually agreed the top/s can take on a scene with the bottom/s during which words like no and fighting back are ignored. It should be noted in a CNC scene or dynamic where a safe word has been agreed this is never ignored when said.

Forgive me, I'm not good with (and don't much like) labels. For 30+ years I belonged to the Alpha Male of a small group of lovable reprobates. He decided whom I fucked, actually more like when I fucked them. Because it was everybody who wanted to over time. I consented to the game when I joined the fray, I continued to consent by continuing to play. He was 30 years older than I and I miss him terribly.

I don't know if it was really CNC, that is the way its often labeled. I liken it to the way my parents reacted my first semester of college. I chose the school, they paid for it. I didn't have to go back the next year but I wasn't allowed to quit part way through. Zane pushed my limits, I was invariably happy that he did so. The Corvette doesn't choose where it drives or how fast, the owner does. But the owner loves and cherishes the 'vette. He gets inside and it takes him places and he doesn't wreck it.

 

[gunhilltrain]

This analogy only works if I'm writing a BDSM story about people involved in a BDSM community engaged in activities that BDSM community enthusiasts participate in. It doesn't apply just because I'm writing a story about fictional individuals who are involved in activities that fall broadly within the range of bondage, dominance/submission, and sadomasochism. In many activities, there are no preexisting rules, other than what the characters make up as they go.

If I choose to write a story about a group of people who decide to make up a new sport that's kind of like soccer, but different from soccer in certain respects, it's not a legitimate criticism for a soccer fan reader to cry, "But they're not playing by soccer rules!"

The vast majority of people who read 50 Shades were not members of BDSM communities. They didn't know anything about them, or their rules. Most of them have probably never in their lives engaged in BDSM activity. It's just a fun fantasy for them.

And those readers matter every bit as much as the readers who are members of the IRL BDSM community. Nobody gets to dictate the content of another person's fantasy, and that's all this Site offers -- fantasies.

To your point, I will say this: I'm working on a story about a couple that gets involved in a BDSM group, and verisimilitude matters for the effectiveness of the story. After reading this thread I'll probably do more research on how these groups work (I've dabbled in BDSM and read some books but am not a member of any community) before publishing a story. In that particular story, it WOULD matter to me whether members of BDSM communities would find the story realistic or not. The issue of consent and how it's given is very important in that story.

I was going to write something like this, but you've already done it. My impression is that there is a BDSM community or lifestyle and then there are other people who are involved in a kind of ad hoc, informal way - amateurs, you might say? (Caution: I said this was an impression; I haven't researched it in any detail.)

The one time I got pushback on BDSM was when I wandered into the BDSM forum and described a story about an informal (and fairly short) session. Somebody objected and said it was indeed supposed to be a lifestyle. If she didn't like how it went, then it was invalid or something. I didn't bother to argue with her. Nor have I posted anything else in that forum.

By the way, I've never had anybody in the comments section of a story say anything like that.

 

[KeithD]

Here, there's another set, most likely the biggest one, who include elements of BDSM in some of the stories they write and/or read simply for the arousal value, being able--as apparently some here can't--to separate what is arousal erotica fiction from real life activity. I can get an erotic jolt from fictional depiction of some BDSM elements, just as I can from short stories including some other acts I wouldn't want to do in real life. In real life, I find humiliation or significant pain sex disgusting and those who would practice it screwed up. I can tell the difference between fiction and real life, though, and don't need a babysitter to do so. Literotica is a fictional story site, not a brothel or clinic.

 

[Ginlover]

Forgive me, I'm not good with (and don't much like) labels. For 30+ years I belonged to the Alpha Male of a small group of lovable reprobates. He decided whom I fucked, actually more like when I fucked them. Because it was everybody who wanted to over time. I consented to the game when I joined the fray, I continued to consent by continuing to play. He was 30 years older than I and I miss him terribly.

I don't know if it was really CNC, that is the way its often labeled. I liken it to the way my parents reacted my first semester of college. I chose the school, they paid for it. I didn't have to go back the next year but I wasn't allowed to quit part way through. Zane pushed my limits, I was invariably happy that he did so. The Corvette doesn't choose where it drives or how fast, the owner does. But the owner loves and cherishes the 'vette. He gets inside and it takes him places and he doesn't wreck it.

Yeah, I simplified the example. CNC can look anyway a dynamic decides between themselves and does not have to include any physical resistance. ‘Forced’ does not have to be physical. The label its self is only for the people in the dynamic to choose.

Blackmail is a kink. A bottom requests they are threatened with blackmail and the top agrees. The limit they decide is they only play with blackmail on the second Tuesday of the month. During the second Tuesday of each month the top tells the bottom if they don’t make them orgasm three times they will tell the bottom’s colleagues what a pervert they are. They tell the bottom they have photos of them dressed as a sissy crawling on the floor and if the bottom dares to orgasm anytime that day the photo will be published on social media. Whether the top would follow through on the treat will have previously been agreed and consented to and if the bottom wants the actual humiliation but the top doesn’t the top can refuse to actually follow through with the threat. The bottom might decided this is not fulfilling their needs and end the dynamic to find a top which matches their kinks better. If this couple want to call it a CNC dynamic they should and have every right to as it is what they have consented to between themselves and want to call it. CNC is the current term for ‘forced with prior consent and the ability of everyone involved to end the scene or dynamic’.

The majority of people involved in kink communities understand when the word forced is used to describe a rl dynamic or scene it is accompanied by an unspoken acknowledgment that consent has been agreed. This is where language is a problem, as a new person exploring their kinks hears about ‘forced’ activities and assumes or just does not know consent is present even if it was given many years beforehand and the consent has not been withdrawn. They are then approached by a predator who tells them to read about BDSM and proceeds to manipulate them into activities they didn’t consent to while referring to all the BDSM literature they had the new person read.

Having spoken to women who had their safe word ignored and were raped, or were manipulated into sexual acts, because the predator is threatening to tell the woman’s family about her despite never communicating this prior to the dynamic starting, this scenario is sadly exceptionally common. These women then reach out for support as they can’t end the interaction due to the threats of the predator. They need support understanding what the predator is doing is abuse not kink - stories like 50 Shades might have opened up the discussion of BDSM to the wider community, but it also gave predators the perfect roadmap to convince/manipulate a new person into believing abuse is kink and consent is obsolete.

Your dynamic is a great example of consensual authority exchange. You agreed to the dynamic, you know you can end the dynamic when you want and I’ll assume your dominant can also end the dynamic if they choose. Once consent was established how the dynamic looks is only up to the people in it. It’s the nuances that get lost in translation, especially when others look in on a dynamic from the outside.

 

[SisterJezabel]

Sometimes I feel I need to take them with a grain of salt. 2 anons this evening...

sorry...
well written, but the procreation stuff turns me off...
(Er... the sex or the sex leading to kids?)

and on another:

Like the story. If you ever edit it, I suggest getting rid of most of the "I never realized".
(I just searched my word doc and there are 4 cases of different people saying this in an 18.7k word story, but I do get how certain phrases stick in your mind and it is something I will be mindful of.)

 

[46n2]

I listen to constructive criticism when it's useful.

For example, someone once commented on one of my stories that "the way you write women makes it clear you're not one". Well, that's true, I'm not a woman. But that comment didn't say anything about what I got wrong (for that matter, since the commenter was anonymous, it could have been from a man anyway). If that individual had said what I got wrong about my female characters, I would have certainly kept that in mind next time out.

Precisely.

Here's an author not removed from criticism. Expects to critique themselves accordingly (which I might argue against within their specific but nvm).

YOU. SUCK.
why?
It's NOT what I wanted.
Okay. What do you want?
LESS SHIT THAT SUCKS.

This is the burying girth of our current world. They simply hit the button. "Less this, more that."

And THAT being... whatever the fuck might be determined at any random tic toc moment?

Currently, we have an entire party signing on to that garbage.

You think the kids might be better?

I can confirm they want to be.

Wait. What were we talking about?

 

[46n2]

I stand by my comment/review fully. It was a non consent story wrapped up as kink, promoting all out abuse. Preachy or not lots, of people initially explore BDSM via writing and there are equal numbers of predators who rely on this fact to use the umbrella of kink to hide under and claim their abuse is just BDSM. And there are a lot of new people targeted because they think a story demonstrates rl dynamics, especially well written stories. Stories posted as kink normalising abuse lead to newbies being abused in real life. If that compares me to the LW brigade because I want to protect new people - often young women - I’ll accept the comparison.

I'm not really versed on this stuff but... I hear a cogent argument.

What is the argument against? That none of it can be "talked" about?

Is it not already absurd that I can't talk about feeling uncomfortable when my mom made me get into her shower at some camping ground? Have a look at my confused pecker, not yet ready to be witnessed?

You cannot write about ZERO below a certain age. The age, of course, where all of us are forming. So go out there and... good luck to ya. Try no to get nailed by the end of all your future.

 

[46n2]

The other day I read a well written story posted in BDSM. I wrote a thought out review saying the writing was excellent, but I had not scored as the content was abuse and manipulation not consensual kink or a D/s dynamic. I referenced the author mentioning safe and sane in the story dialogue were a character said it was required in a partner but the author had missed referencing consent and SSC is a well known acronym in kink. I did this under my user name.

The next day my review had been deleted. Coincidentally, the day after that my stories all got a one bomb.

It was a new account and first published story, but that reaction doesn’t exactly encourage real feedback to be left on stories and I personally won’t bother to write long thought out relevant reviews again.

I hesitate to connect myself.

Who did you write it for?

Who did you write it for?

You knew why.

If it's important, push it through again. And again. And again.