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And now for something

completely different:

One of the best captures of a live show I've ever seen: The Sons of Champlin at Winterland in San Francisco, circa 1974. The Sons are imho one of the best rock/funk/jazz fusion bands that nobody (well almost nobody) has ever heard of.

Sons at Winterland, 1974

It's also a great little time capsule of the fading hippie years. Yeah that's Bill Graham at the beginning.
 
Robert Culbertson playing Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor, BWV 565 on a Chapman Stick. This guy has a lot of great videos of a lot great songs on the Chapman Stick, and he brings a seriously powerful sense of life and emotion into each one with just him playing. I find myself going back to his videos over and over again, jumping between his melodious and moving work and the usual chaotic metal that I destroy what's left of my hearing with. I would certainly suggest that anyone that likes simple, flowing tunes give his works a listen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM2oFkQmyPk
 
1
"TETRA" guitar quartet is in my opinion one of the most interesting that have been formed in London over the last 25 years. Immaculate technique(s) and the choicest repertoire.
Have a listen to the following and if you like their flavor as I do you can follow them. It is worth it.


Aragonaise from Carmen Fantasy by Stephen Goss - Tetra Guitar Quartet

2
The "Follia" theme is one of the best Known in western tradition and many composers have written variations on it from Renaissance onwards.
Here we have a setting from Vivaldi's violin trio sonatas (number 12, if I remember correctly) transcribed for 4 guitars (2 modern concert ones, 1 eight-string for extra bass range and 1 Baroque), very effectively and with breath taking performance!

Barrios Guitar Quartet plays Antonio Vivaldi "La Follia"
 
All right, I know that there aren't many metalheads on the forum, but here's a little thrash metal history lesson all the same. Perhaps there will be some here who get a taste for it, perhaps everyone will tell me to shut up about all the noise, I don't know. Either way, Overkill.
Playing since around late '79 to '80, Overkill started as a punk rock and heavy metal cover band. Many say that is why they were not initially successful as the pioneers of thrash that they are. They started the same time (a little before some, actually) as the Big Four of Thrash; Megadeth, Slayer, Metallica, and Anthrax. Their debut album came out last though, as they had to work to change from covers to their own material. In '84, they finally got a label to look at their '83 demo seriously, and in '85 'Feel The Fire' was released. Here's what they sounded like, more or less, at the time. This one is a little slower than most of their tunes were at the time, but still carries a lot of the feeling they had in their music rather well.

Overkill ~ Overkill
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-b89zcruko

I won't fill in 30 years of history, you can imagine the trials and tribulations that afflicted them, and you'll be more or less right. One thing that constantly surprises with Overkill though, is the fact that they are unrelenting. While a few of their albums were a little slower, the band never really was. Despite a nasty case of nasal cancer in '98 being removed in a hurried surgery and a stroke onstage in Germany during the song Necroshine in '02, singer Bobby 'Blitz' Ellsworth still brings plenty of his hectic, frenetic energy to the fore in the music. Their more recent albums have been a return to their faster, leaner roots, with plenty of heavy hitting songs that certainly don't sound like men in their fifties plunking along. Here is the lead song from their newest album, 'White Devil Armory,' call Armorist. It is a fast, heavy ride that lets Bobby Blitz and other founding member D.D. Verni (bass guitar) really show that they aren't slowing down any time soon.

Overkill ~ Armorist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_c3GBrWsao

So there you have it, the shortest way I can present it. Almost all of their long and storied journey cut for time. If you want to check out more of their work ( I highly recommend it, these guys are living, touring, legends in the metal community for a reason), I would say head to youtube and pull up the albums 'Ironbound', 'The Electric Age', 'Horrorscope', and 'From The Underground And Below.'
All right, I'll shut up about all the noise now.

wD
 
All right, I know that there aren't many metalheads on the forum, but here's a little thrash metal history lesson all the same. Perhaps there will be some here who get a taste for it, perhaps everyone will tell me to shut up about all the noise, I don't know. Either way, Overkill.
Playing since around late '79 to '80, Overkill started as a punk rock and heavy metal cover band. Many say that is why they were not initially successful as the pioneers of thrash that they are. They started the same time (a little before some, actually) as the Big Four of Thrash; Megadeth, Slayer, Metallica, and Anthrax. Their debut album came out last though, as they had to work to change from covers to their own material. In '84, they finally got a label to look at their '83 demo seriously, and in '85 'Feel The Fire' was released. Here's what they sounded like, more or less, at the time. This one is a little slower than most of their tunes were at the time, but still carries a lot of the feeling they had in their music rather well.

Overkill ~ Overkill
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-b89zcruko

I won't fill in 30 years of history, you can imagine the trials and tribulations that afflicted them, and you'll be more or less right. One thing that constantly surprises with Overkill though, is the fact that they are unrelenting. While a few of their albums were a little slower, the band never really was. Despite a nasty case of nasal cancer in '98 being removed in a hurried surgery and a stroke onstage in Germany during the song Necroshine in '02, singer Bobby 'Blitz' Ellsworth still brings plenty of his hectic, frenetic energy to the fore in the music. Their more recent albums have been a return to their faster, leaner roots, with plenty of heavy hitting songs that certainly don't sound like men in their fifties plunking along. Here is the lead song from their newest album, 'White Devil Armory,' call Armorist. It is a fast, heavy ride that lets Bobby Blitz and other founding member D.D. Verni (bass guitar) really show that they aren't slowing down any time soon.

Overkill ~ Armorist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_c3GBrWsao

So there you have it, the shortest way I can present it. Almost all of their long and storied journey cut for time. If you want to check out more of their work ( I highly recommend it, these guys are living, touring, legends in the metal community for a reason), I would say head to youtube and pull up the albums 'Ironbound', 'The Electric Age', 'Horrorscope', and 'From The Underground And Below.'
All right, I'll shut up about all the noise now.

wD

Well, they sound (and look) quite pensionable to me.
I have no real criticism for heavy metal in general… I think it's quite ok so long as one gets over it after the age of 16.

on a more soft note:


Mozart Piano Sonata No 11 A major K 331 - played by Daniel Barenboim
 
Last edited:
wakingDown said:
Robert Culbertson playing Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor, BWV 565 on a Chapman Stick. This guy has a lot of great videos of a lot great songs on the Chapman Stick, and he brings a seriously powerful sense of life and emotion into each one with just him playing. I find myself going back to his videos over and over again, jumping between his melodious and moving work and the usual chaotic metal that I destroy what's left of my hearing with. I would certainly suggest that anyone that likes simple, flowing tunes give his works a listen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM2oFkQmyPk
Click to expand...

Interesting but with plenty of technical mistakes.
I find your understanding of Bach's music very out of place. Contrapuntal music in general and Bach's in particular is not about simple flowing tunes (refer to Vivaldi or Mozart, or Paul Mc Curtney for that sort of thing, or even to top of the pops).
Worst thing is that a Chapman Stick takes these two great pieces out of all historical context and it destroys all musical essence of a prelude/Toccata & fugue by not bringing out clearly the contrapuntal lines and timbers as it is supposed to do, doing a great disservice to the composer and all of us listeners.
(What the fuck is a chapman stick, anyway? Things like that could not happen in any other arrangement for an ordinary instrument like guitar or harp for example).

For what it is all about one can refer to:
for solo violin (as originally conceived)

and
here for church organ

Clearly Bach also had second thoughts about it, thus creating something even better, to the extend that the violin original version sounds as a mere arrangement and the magnificent organ version as the original piece, while the opposite is the case!
 
Last edited:
pelegrino said:
Well, they sound (and look) quite pensionable to me.
I have no real criticism for heavy metal in general… I think it's quite ok so long as one gets over it after the age of 16.
Click to expand...

Oh? Would that be in the same vein as 'classical compositions are fine if you're an old man?' While metal (and especially stuff like thrash, hardcore punk, and death metals, and most -cores as well,) certainly has a strong appeal to the teenage crowd, especially the upset one white crowd, I have never understood why it should be seen as being ONLY for them. The greats of classical compositions are typically seen as something to play in an elevator, a highbrow university, or an old man's sitting room, but you and I know that it is something that can be listened to and appreciated by anyone who hears it. It's simply a matter of whether the music speaks to them or not. I have never seen a reason for metal to be seen any differently.
While there are absolutely a panoply of childish bands, playing simple and mindless drivel that is geared towards and perfect for young kids, there are also myriad bands from many branches of the genre that play amazingly skillful songs that are geared towards a more mature audience. Stuff like One by Metallica ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM8bTdBs-cw ), written about the human price of war, with a heavy influence and a lot of allusions to the book Johnny Got His Gun, as well as clips from the movie made from the book in the music video. Not many kids bands write songs about books that are required reading in high school that I know of. Bands like Megadeth and Nuclear Assault routinely deal with social and cultural fears, problems, and boundaries.
The real issue though, is simply musical taste. Age, upbringing, cultural background, personal beliefs; none of that will really change what sounds good to any given person. If something sounds good to a person, speaks to them musically, catches their ear pleasingly, then they are going to listen to it. My grandmother, before she passed away, found that she like 311 and most of Exodus' debut album Bonded By Blood in her eighties when she heard it on my stereo. I used to go to Dixieland jazz concerts with her and my grandfather when I was a kid, and I absolutely loved the swing and ragtime stomps that they listened to. When she heard the thrash of Exodus and alt metal/reggae rock of 311, she she found that she loved it. My stepdad, in his early sixties, a Beatlemaniac and fifties/sixties rock-centric music fan, turned out to be a big Metallica fan when he gave them a listen. Being a teenager has nothing to do with liking metal, I think it's simply more accessible to teens most of the time. If the music is appealing, it doesn't matter what the listener's age is.
I myself am in my thirties, and grew up banging my head. I have lived a life of violence, on both sides of the fist. I've lived with hardship and suffering as the norm. I have always thrived in atmospheres of chaos, speed, aggression, and brutality. I don't think it is surprising at all that metal appeals to me so much, and that I turn to it to relax, to think clearly, and to feel better. It simply feels the same way my mind does. Why would I stop listening to it simply because I grew up? I'm not trying to convince you or harangue you, there is no rancor or aggression here, I am simply trying to show you how I see it. I have heard this argument before, and it always puzzles me. It puzzles many in the metal community, and always has.
 
pelegrino said:
Interesting but with plenty of technical mistakes.
I find your understanding of Bach's music very out of place. Contrapuntal music in general and Bach's in particular is not about simple flowing tunes (refer to Vivaldi or Mozart, or Paul Mc Curtney for that sort of thing, or even to top of the pops).
Worst thing is that a Chapman Stick takes these two great pieces out of all historical context and it destroys all musical essence of a prelude/Toccata & fugue by not bringing out clearly the contrapuntal lines and timbers as it is supposed to do, doing a great disservice to the composer and all of us listeners.
(What the fuck is a chapman stick, anyway? Things like that could not happen in any other arrangement for an ordinary instrument like guitar or harp for example).

For what it is all about one can refer to:
for solo violin (as originally conceived)

and
here for church organ

Clearly Bach also had second thoughts about it, thus creating something even better, to the extend that the violin original version sounds as a mere arrangement and the magnificent organ version as the original piece, while the opposite is the case!
Click to expand...

I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean when you say that you find my understanding of Bach's music to be out of place. Is it that a metalhead is odd for listening to it, or that I have a misunderstanding of the music?
Other than that, I think the Chapman Stick is an absolutely wonderful instrument. Think of it less of a guitar or harp, and more of a 'manual piano' sort of thing. Played by striking the strings along the fretboard, it replaces the wide array of single note strings with a handful of them, broken along the striking surface with frets like a guitar, making it manageable. It offers a range that covers both bass and six string guitar, with models that include ten and twelve string sets, giving a wide spectrum to play with.
In terms of 'flowing tunes' I was referring to the other songs in Mr. Culbertson's catalog, such as Something and his brief section of Mozart's Symphony 40 (I believe it's the first movement, not sure though). Those are really smooth and move like water, as the Stick makes playing something easy to accomplish if the player is skilled with the instrument. Much like a piano, it is well suited to easy moving musical pieces, and much like a guitar, it can really sing if given the right touch.

As to the 'disservice' done to the listeners I have to disagree, very much so. You yourself said that the man saw fit to change it and present another version, another take on the song. Why then would you adverse to seeing what else could be done with the music? Many versions of the music is played by many musicians, and has been through the years since it was written. Orchestras, soloists, and even other composers and compilers and have all taken a crack at seeing what they could do with it, why then should this man be faced with derision for doing the same? The piece was taken to new instruments when it was moved from organ to violin to cello to how ever many other instruments; why not a contemporary one to see how it sounds and feel? Isn't part of the joy of music in the discovery of new feelings, new emotions, new sounds, new boundaries? It's not like he's playing it on a kazoo with a laugh track and making light of it or mocking it, he's taking it seriously and seeing what else can be done with an incredibly versatile and powerful piece. I think that is at the very heart of musical exploration.
Either way, to each their own. Just as I cannot expect everyone to enjoy and appreciate Cannibal Corpse, I cannot expect everyone to enjoy and appreciate and enjoy this. I was simply trying to understand a little better what you meant. That's all.
 
Tzara said:
Lukas Foss: Oboe Concerto
Click to expand...

Thanks, Tzara.
This is a very fine work. I enjoyed it all thoroughly but particularly the Siciliana of the 2nd movement (extremely effective cadenza! But generally the composer seems to know very deeply what an oboe is all about).
The standard is very high in Czech Republic orchestras now a days eh?
I am not very familiar with the composer and completely ignorant of the conductor and soloist.
A very welcome surprise!
 
JAMESBJOHNSON said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn-0AOCLJSQ

OLD WINE IN NEW BOTTLE

Prokoffiev's challenge was write a modern symphony a la Mozart. Lots for poets to learn from it.
Click to expand...

Great work and I agree with your first point (Prokoffiev's challenge). Would you care to elaborate on the second (poets learning from his example).
Who knows, we may turn this thread into a serious poetry-music discussion platform.
:)
 
pelegrino said:
Thanks, Tzara.
This is a very fine work. I enjoyed it all thoroughly but particularly the Siciliana of the 2nd movement (extremely effective cadenza! But generally the composer seems to know very deeply what an oboe is all about).
The standard is very high in Czech Republic orchestras now a days eh?
I am not very familiar with the composer and completely ignorant of the conductor and soloist.
A very welcome surprise!
Click to expand...
Foss was born in Germany, emigrated to Paris and then to the USA with his parents. Like his friend Leonard Bernstein, he was a conductor and soloist (piano), as well as being a composer. He taught at UCLA (taking the professorship Arnold Schoenberg vacated), and led experiments in improvisatory music at the school.

He may be best known, at least in the USA, as a conductor, having led the Buffalo Philharmonic and the Milwaukee Philharmonic for years.

This piece, Phorion, is part of a larger work titled Baroque Variations.
 
pelegrino said:
Great work and I agree with your first point (Prokoffiev's challenge). Would you care to elaborate on the second (poets learning from his example).
Who knows, we may turn this thread into a serious poetry-music discussion platform.
:)
Click to expand...

Twenty-five years ago I was into antique car restoration. But who wants to drive a 1950 Cadillac or Packard with an AM radio! So! many of us filled the old radios with FM/Stereo guts. I used modern tires, too.

Old homes use modern appliances.

So let old poetry forms carry modern ideas and sentiments.
 
Tzara said:
Foss was born in Germany, emigrated to Paris and then to the USA with his parents. Like his friend Leonard Bernstein, he was a conductor and soloist (piano), as well as being a composer. He taught at UCLA (taking the professorship Arnold Schoenberg vacated), and led experiments in improvisatory music at the school.

He may be best known, at least in the USA, as a conductor, having led the Buffalo Philharmonic and the Milwaukee Philharmonic for years.

This piece, Phorion, is part of a larger work titled Baroque Variations.
Click to expand...

Interesting work also, but I found it far less original in conception than the oboe concerto.
I mainly did not see/hear the relentless ocean waves to which he referred in his program note, or anything else to do with sea/ocean.
It is always a gamble to write a programmatic piece imo and especially to do so by direct reference to non-programmatic masterpieces of the past. In some sense (and I don't mean this ironically) any listener familiar with the Bach partita in E for solo violin probably would not find the experiment as offering anything new or beyond what has already been offered by Bach. I also did not…

maybe my mistake...

(moral of the story for all composers: Don't fuck about with Bach unless you know what you do, in which case you would not fuck about at all in the first place :) )

Still my opinion does not take away any of his sign as a modern composer.
 
JAMESBJOHNSON said:
So let old poetry forms carry modern ideas and sentiments.
Click to expand...

Fine!
So we could leave this thread for enjoyment, listening, commenting on music alone and perhaps you could start a discussion thread on your above premise of old forms carrying modern ideas/sentiments, but since your original source/idea was Prokoffiev's classical symphony I would also put as a requirement that musical forms should be included, so some basic solid grounding on them looks as a prerequisite for such a thread.
Of course we could expand our discussion on some very musically minded poets like Ezra Pound or Brecht for instance...

(Butters had a somehow similar idea as this a few weeks ago on another thread as we were talking on some of E. Pound's advice on similar matters, if I remember correctly. Is that so :confused: Butters? 1201? GM?)

and draw some conclusions from some of their propositions.

If you start such a thread, just choose a topic, write your (informed) opinion, whistle and I'll respond if I know about it.
:cool:
 
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