I Feel Like Starting An Argument: Writing a fanfiction based on ANY story you've ever read is perfectly fine***

[SimonDoom]

This is yet another iteration of an ongoing dialogue about fanfiction, copyright, and plagiarism in which many talk and few listen. But here I go again.

1. Most fanfiction probably is copyright infringement and not fair use. Fair use typically involves uses for comment or criticism, or parody, or, in some cases, what's called "transformative use." But most fanfiction is not different enough to be transformative use.
2. So, for example, if you write your own sequel to The Hunger Games, and use the same characters and settings, without permission, it's probably copyright infringement and not fair use. The author could sue you if she wanted to and probably win.
3. Whether or not you give credit to the author is completely irrelevant to whether it's copyright infringement. It's no defense.
4. It's typically not "illegal," because infringement is almost always a matter of civil liability, not criminality. The federal criminal authorities typically only get involved in serious cases.
5. Despite fanfiction probably being copyright infringement, it's widely tolerated by many famous authors. There are good practical reasons for this. It's not worth their time if you're not making money, and in some ways the existence of a fanfiction universe may actually help them by maintaining the popularity of their works.
6. This site has a clearly stated written policy against copyright infringement, and if you write a story based on another author's work and the author protests the work will be deleted.
7. Despite this policy the site is inconsistent in enforcing it. People have cited examples in previous threads of stories that clearly infringe other Lit authors' stories but are still there. In some cases they're pretty blatant and I'm surprised they slipped through.
8. The key, under copyright law, is that ideas are not protected, but "original expression" is protected. You are free to take the basic plot ideas of another story and write your own story, and it's not infringement and it's not unethical by the common standards of writers and publishers. What does that mean? Don't copy the exact words, definitely. Don't paraphrase so closely that it's obvious you are using another's words. The use of another story's characters, names, detailed plot points can all constitute copyright infringement. Titles are not copyrightable, although in the case of series (like Harry Potter) they may be protected by trademark.


I personally believe it is dishonorable and icky for one Lit author to use the protected creative expression from the story of another author without permission. You may get away with it, but that doesn't mean it's right and it doesn't mean that the site endorses what you are doing; it's just letting you get away with it (probably because it hasn't been brought to their attention).

 

[SimonDoom]

Serious question, but on topic:

a) At the end of The Third Date it's revealed that the song "Morning" which Melissa and Priya wrote together has been used as the theme song to a Netflix adaptation of "A ghost of a chance" by @careythomas

b) Similarly, at the end of Eve & Lucy, three of the characters audition for and are cast in an adaptation of "Hope a Little Longer" and other stories by @Limentina

I'm acknowledging those stories as works of fiction, rather than using their characters, but I didn't seek the author's permission to mention their stories and characters. Should I have done? I mention (and include hyperlinks to) loads of Lit stories in my own stories. Is that a massive breach of etiquette?

It's definitely not infringement. I'd suggest in the future giving the author a head's up as a matter of courtesy, just because authors differ in their pickiness about this sort of thing. I wouldn't mind but some might.

 

[VerbalAbuse]

I've said this before: this is how stories spread. People retelling each other's stories, adding and removing from them.

All the while monetizing the story (re)telling and never crediting anybody.

That's how a single story was getting to have hundreds of variants in circulation in every each (Old World) country.

Without this shameless stealing, there would have been no stories, and no story telling.

Same for any other type of idea. Somebody was seeing somebody else doing something, they would do the same, monetizing it and never giving any credit.

 

[VerbalAbuse]

Should we take the view that, for instance, 40k belongs to games workshop, or equally to the many people playing the game and taking interest in the lore?

Well, games workshop stole pretty much every single idea from elsewhere. Why should it belong to them now? They did some rebranding in the process. Elves became "eldar," exactly for copyright purposes.

Does Darth Vader belong to disney, or to the public? What if somebody wrote a story or made a movie about a guy dressed in black called Tarth Vater?

Did lucas invent space ships and space battles? Or sword fighting? Or laser? Or dunes of sand? Or princesses and smugglers? Or creepy green small creatures?

Snyder recently stole a lot of star wars ideas for his rebel moon movies. I wonder if he paid royalties to disney.

 

[lovecraft68]

From Monty Python

I want an argument

No, you don't.

Chloe Tzang Killed off half the AH in a story years ago, but asked permission and what weapons we'd like to use in the story. I told her you can kill me, but only if its not by some stupid vampire. In the story as I die my last words are "At least its not a vampire"

This is fine providing you ask, then be sure to have an opening author's note saying you have permission. If, not, there are readers who report what they think is ripping off another author's story.

 

[ElectricBlue]

People are having a ton of fun with the legalities.

Back up one, and think about writer's ethics for a moment. That's where you declare yourself, in my view. That's setting aside the whole question of being original, but it seems folk don't seem to care much about that, either.

 

[litfan10]

My take is - the story pool is far, far from dry. You want to write, write your own damn stuff. Don't be lazy.

That being said, I don't mind anyone spinning off my works (in fact I'm flattered) as long as (a.) I am given very clear credit upfront and its understood I didn't do this and it really doesn't have anything to do with my ultimate storyline(s.) (just because you killed off one of my characters doesn't mean I did) and (b.) any money gained is at least partially shared, no freeloading.

You want to drastically change something fine. I might read it, shake my head and chuckle.

Personally, I'm not a fan of fanfic. Much prefer original work. I only have so much time left on earth and a ridiculous amount of books to read. Don't have time for that nonsense. Same with writing; why on earth would I waste precious time writing someone else's stuff when I got plenty of my own stuff to finish?

 

[RoperTrace]

I'm admittedly even less expert in UK laws than US laws, although there's a fair amount of similarity thanks to colonial inheritance or whatever you'd like to call it. But, I believe the fact that the penalties are handled differently, i.e., a matter of civil law versus criminal law, does not change the fact that trespassing is still illegal in the UK, which is what I said, as opposed to describing it as a crime.
Property owners in the UK are, I believe, considered to have the right to generally or specifically refuse access to their property, and people violating that right can, if no less coercive method is successful, be compelled by court order or other legal remedy to desist and, if necessary, make restitution. So: still against the law, although perhaps less likely to wind up in gaol over there than in jail over here.

I had a weird, 'hippie' co-worker who used to trout fish on farmer's properties wearing wading boots. When the landowner, inevitably came out to tell him to leave, my co-worker would quote the Pa. law that if you're standing only in the stream, it's not trespassing. I never checked to see that was true, but the few times that farmers came out to chase us off their land(teen-age boys), he was usually carrying a shotgun. In my book, (shotgun) > (quoting obscure laws).

 

[lovecraft68]

Oh, joy, here we go with the copyright crap again, and the ethics conversation springing up as well.

If someone wants to do a fan fic of another's story it is legal with their permission-and I am speaking for lit only, which is where we are so cut the shit with "so and so vs so and so in 1999" then that's their choice. The whole write something original argument does align with my personal feelings, but in that, I speak for myself, others can do what they want.

This shouldn't be an argument, but the high and mighty here need to be heard each time this comes up, which is often.

 

[AlinaX]

I thought the whole point of this discussion was fan fiction, and not the legality of it. It's pointless for us to argue the legality of it.

Is fan fiction lazy? Not necessarily. As authors, we do prefer to have sole control over our characters and their universes, but also we invite people to read those stories - and we are not perfect.

Just look at Harry Potter, which for so long and for so many people was a shared childhood world of magic and wonder, and yet so utterly flawed because despite the self-indulgent length of the later books there was no sincere attempt to be culturally sensitive and inclusive, or indeed self-consistent and intelligent. You could even argue the the author, in this case, failed in her responsibility towards the universe and characters she created, and that fan fiction authors were responsible for a wealth of detail that complemented and ultimately improved the original.

You could argue that copyright is necessary for protecting new creators, but is fundamentally abused by bigger players who deliberately stifle creativity.

I don't write fan fiction, because I like to be in control of what I write. I have written worlds and characters that mean so much to me that I would feel distress to see them written wrong... but I also understand the value in others being so inspired by my writing to want to add to it.

We are egotistical creatures. We like to be in control. Sometimes there's value in giving that up.

 

[nice90sguy]

Warning: Everyone who argues with me will see one or more of their characters featured in my new massive multiverse spanning fanfic which is tentatively titled "Fucking Through the Litverse"

Sign up below*
↓↓↓↓

*Just kidding ​

I'm arguing with you: I disagree with that stuff you said.

Hopefully that's enough for you to include one of my characters

Link to my stories in my sig

 

[mildlyaroused]

I'm admittedly even less expert in UK laws than US laws, although there's a fair amount of similarity thanks to colonial inheritance or whatever you'd like to call it. But, I believe the fact that the penalties are handled differently, i.e., a matter of civil law versus criminal law, does not change the fact that trespassing is still illegal in the UK, which is what I said, as opposed to describing it as a crime.
Property owners in the UK are, I believe, considered to have the right to generally or specifically refuse access to their property, and people violating that right can, if no less coercive method is successful, be compelled by court order or other legal remedy to desist and, if necessary, make restitution. So: still against the law, although perhaps less likely to wind up in gaol over there than in jail over here.

Hmm. Strictly speaking, "illegal" and "unlawful" are two different things; and trespassing in the UK is the latter and not the former. But that's getting into pedantic semantics. Criminal vs civil law is muddy topic.

There was a popular British YouTuber a few years back who constantly uploaded footage of himself trespassing, and even with this self-exposing documentation, the land owners failed to prosecute him. The only instance in which they eventually succeeded was not on the basis of trespass, but because of stealing a "hot beverage of unknown value".

Basically, the YouTuber made himself a cuppa and got got for it...

 

[StillStunned]

You mess with someone's tea, don't expect any sympathy from the court!

 

[litfan10]

Tea is sacred and capable of starting wars.
Boston Tea Party anyone?

 

[MediocreAuthor]

I personally believe it is dishonorable and icky for one Lit author to use the protected creative expression from the story of another author without permission. You may get away with it, but that doesn't mean it's right and it doesn't mean that the site endorses what you are doing; it's just letting you get away with it (probably because it hasn't been brought to their attention).

I agree with basically every you said in your post except a noodly little bit here.

I think that if you attempt to contact the author, and they do not respond after a reasonable amount of time AND they have nothing in their bio or story forwards forbidding it, then you should write something like this in your forward.

This story is an unofficial sequel to *Insert Title* by *Insert Author* I tried to contact them for permission to add to their work, which I adore, but I could not get in touch with them. I wrote this story in honor of them, and all of the original credit for this story goes to them.

*Insert Author*, if you see this message and have any problems with this work, contact me and I will not hesitate to take it down, no questions asked. Thank you for the wonderful story you created.

---

If you think that's rude or unacceptable, we'll just have to agree to disagree

 

[SimonDoom]

People are having a ton of fun with the legalities.

Back up one, and think about writer's ethics for a moment. That's where you declare yourself, in my view. That's setting aside the whole question of being original, but it seems folk don't seem to care much about that, either.

I generally agree with this, except in one respect. I use the legal copyright distinction between ideas and expression in forming my own personal moral judgment about what one can morally take from another's work without permission and what one cannot. So, I believe it's perfectly OK to take the non-copyrightable basic ideas from another author stories and make your own story based on those ideas without getting permission. It's not OK to take the expression without getting permission. The legal concept informs my personal view of right and wrong on this issue.

 

[THBGato]

It's definitely not infringement. I'd suggest in the future giving the author a head's up as a matter of courtesy, just because authors differ in their pickiness about this sort of thing. I wouldn't mind but some might.

Actually, I think what I'm doing is *fine*. I mean, it's no different to Wanda referencing Tolkien in her latest story.

 

[SimonDoom]

I agree with basically every you said in your post except a noodly little bit here.

I think that if you attempt to contact the author, and they do not respond after a reasonable amount of time AND they have nothing in their bio or story forwards forbidding it, then you should write something like this in your forward.

This story is an unofficial sequel to *Insert Title* by *Insert Author* I tried to contact them for permission to add to their work, which I adore, but I could not get in touch with them. I wrote this story in honor of them, and all of the original credit for this story goes to them.

*Insert Author*, if you see this message and have any problems with this work, contact me and I will not hesitate to take it down, no questions asked. Thank you for the wonderful story you created.

---

If you think that's rude or unacceptable, we'll just have to agree to disagree

I'm not going to get in an argument about it or call names, but I totally disagree. I think this is icky. I think it's wrong. You're entitled to your own opinion, but it seems to me that it's obvious from author feedback in this thread that so many authors disagree with you that you are making unwarranted assumptions about what one can reasonably expect and that the obviously courteous thing to do is to get permission first, period.

 

[mildlyaroused]

You mess with someone's tea, don't expect any sympathy from the court!

Absolutely not. It's tantamount to high t(r)eason!

 

[SimonDoom]

Actually, I think what I'm doing is *fine*. I mean, it's no different to Wanda referencing Tolkien in her latest story.

I don't think it's a big deal. The only difference is that there's a difference, IMO, between referencing a Lit author and their story and referencing a famous author. We are part of a community. I think it's a nice courtesy to other members of this community to ask. But it's not a moral/legal issue.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

*rapidly writing down names*

SOOO many characters going in my Multiverse Story! I'm gonna run out of room! Wait! An orgy?! That'll handle a lot all at once.

 

[litfan10]

Absolutely not. It's tantamount to high t(r)eason!

Wait....why the parentheses around the 'r.'.....

Long pause.
*slaps forehead.
Audible groan

Yeah, I'm just gonna sit here, sip my tea and think happy thoughts.

 

[litfan10]

*rapidly writing down names*

SOOO many characters going in my Multiverse Story! I'm gonna run out of room! Wait! An orgy?! That'll handle a lot all at once.

If its Multiverse there better be some Marvel characters flailing about.

I always thought Reed Richards aka Mr. Fantastic would make for a sex god.

 

[litfan10]

OP original thread title: "I feel like starting a fight..."

*reads through posts.

I can safely say mission accomplished.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

I'm not going to get in an argument about it or call names, but I totally disagree. I think this is icky. I think it's wrong. You're entitled to your own opinion, but it seems to me that it's obvious from author feedback in this thread that so many authors disagree with you that you are making unwarranted assumptions about what one can reasonably expect and that the obviously courteous thing to do is to get permission first, period.

And you think that fanfictions with large, popular IP's are icky as well? I just wanna understand your thoughts, because I think it's crazy to refuse to write a work because of the possible objections of a possibile dead person.

Who could you be hurting by doing what I've suggested?

---

You and I are metaphorical kids on a playground, and I find an abandoned toy.

Me: "Someone left this a long time ago. I'm gonna play with it."

You: "That's somebody else's! You're stealing!"

Me: "No, they abandoned it! They wrote their name on it though... but no contact info." *At the top of my lungs* "HEY, ANDY! IS THERE AN ANDY HERE? YOU LEFT YOUR TOY HERE! IF YOU COME OVER HERE, YOU CAN HAVE IT BACK!! I'm just gonna play with it until he shows up... if ever."

You: "Playing with that toy is theft, and it's icky and wrong!"

Me: "But I couldn't find the original owner! I haven't taken anything from them!"

You: "You can see from my reaction that others disagree with you. You're making unwarranted assumptions about the original owner of that toy. AND I'm telling!"

Me:

---

(PS: that was not a serious argument, I'm just trying to explain how my mind equates the idea)